Flaws in PBK Philosophy

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 21 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 140) More examples of Half-Baked Knowledge and Double Standards of PBKs
sita wrote:The definition of an angel is one who has connection with only one God. He does not have connection with the ground, the feet of his intellect does not touch the ground, the soil of body-consciousness. And it was said we have to reach Avyakt stage, whilst being in the body, and that before becoming deities, we pass through the stage of an angel. From Brahman we become an angel and from an angel we become a deity. So for PBKs angels definitely exist practically. Shankar is said to be an angel.
1) PBKs say- we believe in 'ShivBaba', but they are referring to THEIR 'ShivBaba', who THEY DELUSIVELY believe uses the Chariot or body of Virendra Dev Dixit, AFTER 1969, and NOT to REAL ShivBaba. It is like someone saying I believe in God, by showing the picture of SATAN or a HUMAN, or like believing LIME to be BUTTER.

2a) Definition of angel given by PBKs is AGAIN HALF-BAKED!
LOTS OF Murli POINTS SAY- ANGEL or ANGELIC STAGE CAN BE EITHER IN SUBTLE BODY, or IN A CORPOREAL BODY. But, the former one is superior to the latter one.

2b) The definition of an angel FITS MOST APPROPRIATELY to the soul of DLR or Brahma Baba, to the HIGHEST POSSIBLE EXTENT! BB is one who has connection with only one God (refer to the relevant AV - "WE TWO CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER EVEN FOR ONE MOMENT"). BB does not have connection with the ground (of the physical or corporeal body, after he became Avyakt in 1969); the feet of the intellect of BB do not touch the ground, or the soil of body-consciousness (like in the case of Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs). BB ALREADY REACHED his Avyakt stage, WHILE being in his CORPOREAL body, (EVEN BEFORE LEAVING HIS CORPOREAL BODY, MANY other souls PRACTICALLY SAW both his ANGELIC form, as well as his DEITY form, through their OWN PHYSICAL EYES, THROUGH his OWN PREVIOUS CORPOREAL BODY); and before becoming a deity of G A, he is now passing through the stage of a COMPLETE angel in his SUBTLE body. From Brahman we become an angel, (BB has ALREADY BECOME A COMPLETE ANGEL , while Virendra Dev Dixit is STILL IN THE PROCESS of BECOMING what he is claiming, he, and all others, should become), and from an angel we become a deity (BB is FULLY QUALIFIED to become a DEITY, but Virendra Dev Dixit has STILL TO ACQUIRE that qualification).
So for PBKs, angels definitely exist ONLY THEORETICALLY - ONLY IN THEIR EXPECTATION AND IN THEIR IMAGINATION, AND NOT IN THEIR PRACTICAL APPLICATION, AS YET!
Shankar is said to be an angel, BUT EVEN BRAHMA IS SAID TO BE AN ANGEL!!!

2c) So PBKs are only holding on to an idea, which NEITHER Virendra Dev Dixit, NOR any one of them have AS YET ACHIEVED, and demonstrated PRACTICALLY; while BB has ALREADY ACHIEVED that COMPLETE STAGE OF A COMPLETE ANGEL, AFTER ACTUAL PRACTICAL DEMONSTRATION ON THE CORPOREAL SPHERE IN FRONT OF EMBODIED SOULS!!! - [LOTS OF Avyakt Murli POINTS CLEARLY SAY THESE].

2d) But, as per PBKs, no angel can exist just in subtle body. Angel should be in corporeal body only. In this way, they have murdered even the concept of angel. Any angel, who exists in subtle body, as per PBKs philosophy, is just like a 'ghost'.
ON THE CONTRARY, NO COMPLETE ANGEL CAN EXIST IN A CORPOREAL BODY, AND HAS TO ESSENTIALLY EXIST IN A SUBTLE BODY! And any individual who claims that he is an 'ANGEL' in a CORPOREAL body, is ONLY A 'GHOST', like Virendra Dev Dixit! So, by 'WORSHIPING' a physically embodied 'GHOST', like Virendra Dev Dixit, DELUSIVELY BELIEVING him to be 'living' 'ShivBaba', the PBKs are, IN FACT, 'worshiping' ONLY a GHOST IMAGE of 'ShivBaba', and have NO CHANCE of resorting to ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED remembrance of REAL ShivBaba or God, to enable them to become soul-conscious in Confluence Age, other than through physical DESTRUCTION or TRANSFORMATION!

2e) Moreover, PBKs inadvertently IMPLY that even THEIR OWN concept of an angel does not practically exist at all. AS PER PBKs, the 'BULL' RIDES ON Shankar, ALMOST THROUGHOUT the Confluence Age, AND HENCE THEIR 'ASSUMED' CONCEPT OF Shankar CAN NEVER BE THAT OF AN ANGEL PRACTICALLY, BOTH FROM THEIR OWN MISAPPROPRIATED VIEWS, AS WELL AS LOGICALLY. WE CAN SEE HERE, WHAT A GREAT SUICIDE Mr DIXIT HAS COMMITTED BY IMPLYING THAT SOUL OF DLR IS IN HIM, AND, AT THE SAME TIME, IMPLYING THAT DLR IS INCOMPLETE or a GHOST.

3) Silly argument of PBKs is AGAIN VISIBLE here. Baba says angel to all the subtle deities B, V, S - and NOT just to Shankar. But, Baba has also said- PRACTICALLY, Vishnu (one having four hands) does not exist. It represents combination of L and N. So, BOTH Shankar and subtle Brahma are fit for the title of ANGEL. - See post No. 78- COMMON THINGS BETWEEN THE TWO. - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2422&p=50438#p50438

BUT- If we see the point No. 08), Baba says- JUST Brahma ALONE WOULD BE IN Subtle Region. - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2422&p=50866&hilit=akelaa#p50866.
This is a great setback to PBKs who try to defame or criticize Brahma Baba.

4)And, none of the Murli points say- Mr Dixit or corporeal human being is Shankar. More PBKs try to discriminate between Brahma and Shankar, more they create ropes to hang themselves, as -

a)Murli points clearly say- "Shankar and Vishnu cannot be called as Prajapita. Shankar and Vishnu NEITHER BECOME WIFE, NOR Chariot OF GOD". So, all these prove that in the SAME BODY, ONE CANNOT PLAY ROLE OF Shankar as well as PRAJAPITA.

b)Also- Baba has kept all the subtle deities at almost equal positions, but as per PBK philosophy, there is a long gap between their Shankar and the other two. So, goes against Murli points, and even logic, as well as from lowkik points of view.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 21 Feb 2016

An angel can be in subtle body or in corporeal body, only thing is his mind and intellects should be above the body. But, the former one is more superior to the latter one.
Why do you think an angel in subtle body is superior to one in corporeal body. Is it there in some Murli that it is said like this?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 21 Feb 2016

sita wrote:Why do you think an angel in subtle body is superior to one in corporeal body. Is it there in some Murli that it is said like this?
Murli POINTS, both Sakar and Avyakt CLEARLY SAY or imply it. An example here- Baba says- ShivBaba and B baba do not need even sleep and are free to go anywhere, have absolutely no bondage. - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2602&p=50899&hilit=sleep#p50899

Baba even says- the creation of Brahma are of two types, and the one through thought would be more powerful than face/mouth. - mu point no. 05 - post no. 147 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... evr#p12911

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 21 Feb 2016

It is not said that creation through thought is more powerful. And creation through thought does not mean that the creation is without a corporeal body.

I think angel in corporeal body is superior, because it requires superior effort. To be in the body and make effort to stay detached from the body, is superior effort compared to not having a body and staying detached from it. It is like with the matter of purity. Does it require more effort to stay at home and be pure, or to leave the household and stay pure? Which effort is superior and brings superior result?


= RESPONSE =

KINDLY REVIEW SUB-SECTIONS OF POINT 2 IN FOLLOWING EARLIER POST, FOR BETTER UNDERSTANDING -
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&start=525#p51034

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 23 Feb 2016

# Flaw No.141) PBK theory INADVERTENTLY says- God is weaker than others:--

Another example of PBKs falling into their own trap.
sita wrote:It is not said that creation through thought is more powerful. And creation through thought does not mean that the creation is without a corporeal body.
Lots of Sakar as well as Avyakt Murli points clearly say- "there would not be corporeal support, AS IT HAD BEEN BEFORE. It would become LESSER. It clearly says- teacher would be now seeing from FAR". - Already pointed- Post No. 117- Still you are arguing in the same INVERTED manner. http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... &start=160

Another trance message also clearly says it, as below -
9th Trance Message (immediately after 18th January 1969) Pg 10 of Hindi Book:- Aaj jab vatan may gayee, toh koyi bhee nazar may naheen aa raaa thaa. Door/dur se jaisey koyi aavaaz aa rahee thi. Aisey lag rahaa thaa jaisey koyi khaas kaary ho rahaa ho. Main pahley toh kuch rukee, lekin phir aage chalkar kyaa dekhaa. ShivBaba, Brahma Baba, Mama aur Vishw Kishore chaaron hee aapas may baath-cheeth kar rahe thay, aur bahut plan unkey aage rakhey thay, jismey kuch nishaan aadi dikhaayi de rahe thay. Lekin samajh may naheen aayaa. Mama sabhee bachchon kaa haal-chaal pooch rahee thi. Maine kahaa Mama, aapney Baba ko bhee bulaa liyaa. Mama BOLI- Mama BHEE NAHEEN CHAAHTHI THI KI BACHCHON SE MAATPITAA KI SAAKAARI SAATH CHOOTHEY. LEKIN DRAMA. Phir maine Baba se poochaa- Baba, yah plans aadi kyaa hai? Baba boley- bachchee, jaise marshal ke paas saare nakshey rahthay hain ki kahaan2 kyaa2 ho rahaa hai. aage kyaa honaa hai- vaise yah bhee sthaapnaa ke kaary ke bare may hee baath-cheeth chal rahee thi, jo phir sunaayenge. Iskey baad ek drushy dikhaayaa, jismey theen(3) sanghatan thay. - [prediction, PBKs]
I think angel in corporeal body is superior, because it requires superior effort. To be in the body and make effort to stay detached from the body, is superior effort compared to not having a body and staying detached from it. It is like with the matter of purity. Does it require more effort to stay at home and be pure, or to leave the household and stay pure? Which effort is superior and brings superior result?
Shiv remains in Pramadham most of the time, whereas deity souls remain in the corporeal world most of the time. So, are PBKs going to imply- God is weaker than deity souls?*

It is again hopeless state of PBKs. The matter is about power to transform, power to control or rule. It is the ability of being uninfluenced, not whether one remains in Paramdham for most of the time or not.
God has highest power of ability to transform, can never be influenced by anything. Hence he does not get affected even a little even when he comes in an impure body, in an impure world. His name also does not change even when he enters into some other body.

Deity souls have ability to play role for most of the period in the Kalpa, as they charge to a greatest level; other souls, number-wise.

Without understanding the knowledge in CORRECT context, PBKs DRIVE THEMSELVES out of the track more and more.

* - PBKs may even say- God is weaker than even all the human souls, who descend earlier than him from Paramdham ?!

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 23 Feb 2016

Who is superior, souls who take 84 births or those who take one birth? Souls who stay in body longer are superior.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 23 Feb 2016

sita wrote:Who is superior, souls who take 84 births or those who take one birth? Souls who stay in body longer are superior.
So, PBKs may kindly express THEIR VIEWS regarding-

1) Is point Shiv, who is EVERPURE, and beyond any PHYSICAL BIRTHS, and who descends only during the Conf. Age, most powerful, or are the deities who take 84 births or many births, more powerful?

2) Would PBKs like to compare other human souls, who take more than one birth, and stay for longer duration in corporeal body, w.r.t. God?

3) And- Baba says- God does not ride in the Chariot the whole day. [God is free to move anywhere]. Is that a great qualification of God or an indication of His weakness?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 23 Feb 2016

Shiv cannot be compared to any other soul.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 142) Speaking Open 'LIVE' LIES -
sita wrote:Shiv cannot be compared to any other soul.
1) Mr Dixit CRAFTILY & SURREPTITIOUSLY IMPLIES that the titles of God, viz., - ShivBaba, Rudra, Somnath, etc., - all APPLY 'ACTUALLY' TO HIMSELF.
AS PER HIM, THESE TITLES DO NOT ACTUALLY BELONG STRICTLY TO INCORPOREAL GOD by Himself, but ONLY APPLY when He is within ONLY a corporeal body of an embodied soul; and he further TREACHEROUSLY IMPLIES that he is the 'Supreme Soul', among all embodied souls - thus AGAIN, STEALING the EXCLUSIVE title of God for himself, and carrying out the 'shooting' of HiranyaKashyap!
In spite of all this, Virendra Dev Dixit and PBKs STILL maintain that- Shiv cannot be compared to any other human soul.

2) It is PBKs who first began to compare God with human souls by saying- a 'point' cannot do anything, AS A 'POINT', without a corporeal body - AS IF, any other embodied soul could do anything without a corporeal body - IN THAT PARTICULAR SENSE!
The aspect of SPIRITUAL Knowledge, regarding any soul's ability to do anything, with or without a CORPOREAL body, is TOTALLY & COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the ACTUAL SPIRITUAL POTENTIAL of a soul to act through a corporeal or subtle body or bodies, AT WILL!
This latter SUBTLE ASPECT of Knowledge CANNOT BE APPRECIATED by souls with INVERTED, CORRUPTED & GROSS INTELLECTS, like Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs! CLEARLY the Soul of God is SUPREME, in the latter aspect, and the soul of DLR is supreme among ALL EMBODIED SOULS, after 1969, due to COMPLETE FREEDOM from the constraints imposed by a physical body - as CLEARLY HIGHLIGHTED in several AVs!

3) It is PBKs who first stated that Paramdham above is imaginary, and implied that the IMPURE, PERISHABLE BODY of Mr Dixit was the real 'living' Paramdham.

4) It is again PBKs who placed Mr Dixit in the place of 'Sukhdham'.
In this way, PBKs have THEMSELVES carried out such ARBITRARY & NONSENSICAL comparisons, and played the role of HK Hood, several times.

BTW- Baba has used the words Allah, Bhagavaan, etc., even for top human souls - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... llah#p9517
Baba also says- jaise baap, vaise bachchey = as the Father, so are the children.
This does not mean that the children should become SPIRITUALLY BERSERK, and SURREPTITIOUSLY declare themselves to be God, by TREACHEROUSLY & DECEPTIVELY IMPLYING that the EXCLUSIVE titles of God apply to themselves - either directly, indirectly or by way of any type of CLANDESTINE IMPLICATION!!!

But, PBKs do not hesitate to go out of all the limits (going against Murli points, going against logical way of thinking or against even acclaimed Bhakti concepts) to prove their stand; but when simple query is asked - "who is higher- God or human?" (obviously it is God- no one in this world, who believes in God or spirituality, will have a different answer), PBKs cannot give a DIRECT answer.
It is EVIDENTLY their hidden ego, total failure, or just being caught up in the vicious grip of Maya, and double standards, which motivate them to conduct themselves in such a shabby manner. Let them have their enjoyment during the 'shooting' period of Ravan Rajya - but let us still have good wishes for them, as something is better than nothing.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 24 Feb 2016

When it Is said that a soul cannot do anything without a body it does not apply to Shiv only, but also to all other souls. Without a body a soul is like non living.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Feb 2016

Flaw No. 143)Low level of understanding of PBKs:-
sita wrote:When it Is said that a soul cannot do anything without a body it does not apply to Shiv only, but also to all other souls. Without a body a soul is like non living.
It is true that "without body, a soul cannot do any PHYSICAL action". But, the subtle stage of a soul can do miracles. Baba has said- "Even during Bhaktimarg, I give visions to devotees, fulfill their good wishes". Do you think during Bhaktimarg, ShivBaba enters into a body and then gives visions?

And- when Baba has clearly said- "Shiv never rides Chariot whole day"- does that not clearly imply our remembrance reaches God (or gives fruit) EVEN WHEN Shiv is not in a body?
So- whether Shiv is in a body or not in a body, our remembrance gives result. Similarly, till we reach karmaateet stage, we will be dependent on body, but as our stage reaches very high, the dependency of physical body goes on reducing. That is why Baba has said- meeting of great children takes place automatically there in Subtle Region. - Post No. 170- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 70+#p14353

Do you think- to do all these great subtle service, God is dependent on some PHYSICAL BODY ONLY, or through physical body of Mr Virendra Dev Dixit ONLY, all these things are happening?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 24 Feb 2016

The visions of the devotees after Copper Age are the automatic result of their thoughts and feelings of devotion. In the Confluence Age we come to know about the philosophy of action.

When it is said that Shiv does not ride the bull the whole day, it means he does service through the children also. Once he comes, he does not go back until the job is done.

Yes, I think to do service God is dependent on the physical body. It is said so in the Murli.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 144) MISERABLE state of PBKs due to ABJECT attachment to ONLY CORPOREAL body
sita wrote:The visions of the devotees after Copper Age are the automatic result of their thoughts and feelings of devotion. In the Confluence Age we come to know about the philosophy of action.
This is correct. It is good that PBKs believe there can also be AUTOMATIC result.
So, why not in Conf. Age also?
Yes, I think to do service God is dependent on the physical body. It is said so in the Murli.
RELATIVELY TRUE, but ONLY for some types of PHYSICAL service, eg- to give knowledge/education INITIALLY, and some PHYSICAL sustenance, where there is need to give drushti, etc. But, to the EXTENT the REQUIRED Knowledge is ALREADY ACQUIRED by the Children, the dependency of CORPOREAL body goes on reducing! Then some service or experiences can be AUTOMATIC even here.

In Conf. Age, INITIALLY, there is need to educate children, so there is need of a corporeal body for God, BECAUSE the children are in ABJECT BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS. Else, for other types of SPIRITUAL services, there is no need of such dependency of ONLY CORPOREAL body. This fact has NOT been understood CLEARLY, NOR EXPERIENCED, by PBKs, and hence they just keep on saying- God is dependent on ONLY CORPOREAL body, and we all should think of Him ONLY in a CORPOREAL body all the time, a soul cannot be remembered without a CORPOREAL body, etc, etc.
In this manner, Ravan or Maya SUCCEEDS in TREACHEROUSLY TRAPPING Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs in ABJECT BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS, to facilitate the 'shooting' of Ravan Rajya through them, as instruments of Ravan, while DELUSIVELY making them BLINDLY, but STAUNCHLY, BELIEVE that they are instruments of God!

In service, there are different types.
SM 9-7-70(1):- Baap ek2 ko baith dekhte hain yah kyaa2 service kar rahe hain. Sthool seva karte hain yaa sookhsm seva karte hain, yaa mool seva karte hain. = "Father sits and sees each one as to what service they do. Whether they do physical service, subtle service or spiritual service."

So, for complete development, there is need to understand knowledge appropriately and ACCURATELY. Else, children cannot make the RIGHT effort. [In Bhaktimarg, there is no real study or spiritual education] So, here, in Conf. Age, God plays full role, and hence needs/uses even physical body, but it does not mean that without physical body, God cannot do SPIRITUAL service at all - this restriction ONLY APPLIES TO EMBODIED SOULS, AND THAT TOO, AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN IN SOME DEGREE OF BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS!

Again- God is "karan karaavanhaar", not just karanhaar. In this way also Baba uses body for service. Hence he will also use the other children numberwise for service. He may give vision not just of the Chariot, but also, the other ishtadevas- which is also said in Murlis, indicated in the link.

So, without understanding in the right context, PBKs have made(depicted) God as handicapped, due to which even they THEMSELVES have become handicapped in similar way. "Jaisee drushti, vaisee srushti = As the vision, so is the 'world' ".

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 27 Feb 2016

This is correct. It is good that PBKs believe there can also be AUTOMATIC result.
So, why not in Conf. Age also?
The automatic relation between the cause and the effect works in the Confluence Age too. The difference is that in the Copper Age people do actions, based on the directions given by human beings, so the result of their actions is creation of hell. In the Confluence Age through acting on Godly directions result is creation of heaven. In the Golden Age, actions are neutral, because of the neutral stage of the soul. In fact, the result is there achieved based on the feeling, intention with which we do certain action. In body-consciousness we sin whatever we do, result is sorrow. In Golden Age we enjoy the result of the confluence aged effort and through enjoyment we fall slowly. That's why Confluence Age is said to be the highest - where through remembrance we can destroy our sins.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 28 Feb 2016

There was the matter that the more powerful enters the less powerful one, but the PBKs say that the soul of Ram is more powerful, but they also say that now the bull is riding over Shankar. The soul of Ram is human Father, and there are all types of souls in the world, he is Father to the good and bad ones both, Father to the best of best and the worst of worst, he climbs up the highest and falls the lowest, whilst the horoscope of Krishna has been compared to the one of Christ. For the Christians it is said that they don't climb up so high and don't fall down so much, they still retain some purity of the intellect, whilst Indians become completely stone like intellects. So the soul of Brahma Baba is more powerful with respect to purity.

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