Flaws in PBK Philosophy

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arjun
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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by arjun » 06 Dec 2012

mbbhat wrote:[Interesting thing is- when I pass personal comments, i will use just a few words, two or three.
What a joke!!!! :laugh:

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by mbbhat » 07 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:What a joke!!!!
You may try to list, and prove that I have used more than two to three words other than what you all have used to me. because those are already used from your or other side. So- they are just rebounded in response.
--------

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by mbbhat » 26 Jan 2013

Flaw No. 44:- Great Murli points that disprove pbk philosophy:-

AV 26-6-69(Pg 76, 77, 78 & 79 of the book):- Teacher roop se part abhee chal rahaa hai yaa pooraa ho chukaa hai? Revize course teacher karaa rahaa hai yaa apney aap kar rahe ho? Padhaayi padhaate naheen hai, lekin madad hai. Revise course ke liye school se chutti lee jaati hai, ghar may jisko homework kahaa jaataa hai. Lekin teacher kaa connection rahtaa hai. Connection tab tak hai jab tak final paper ho. REVIZE COURSE KE LIYE HAR VAKT TEACHER SAATH NAHEEN RAHTAA HAI. TOH ABHEE TEACHER DOOR/DUR SE HEE DEKH REKH KAR RAHE HAIN. Kahaan koyi mushkilaath ho toh pooch saktey ho. LEKIN JAISE PADHAAYI KE SAMAY SAATH RAHTE THAY VAISE AB SAATH NAHEEN. Abhee oopar se baith achchee reeti dekh rahe hain ki revise course may koun2 kitney shakti se kitni mehnath se umang utsaah se kaary ko pooraa kar rahe hain. Oopar se baith drushy kitnaa achchaa dekhney kaa rahtaa hai. Jaise aap log yahaan oopar (sandli par) may baith dekhte ho aur neeche baith dekhney may fark hota hai na. Insey bhee baith dekhey toh kitnaa fark hoga. Buddhi bal se mahsoos kar saktey ho. Kyaa anubhav hota hai? Aaj anubhav sunaate hain. Anubhav sun_nay aur sunaane ki toh parampara se reeti hai toh vatan may rahte kyaa anubhav karte hain? Vatan may hote bhee teacher ka connection honey ke kaaran dekhte hain. Koyi2 bahut alowkikpan se padhaayi ko revise kar rahe hain. Koyi samay gavaa rahe hain. Koyi samay safal kar rahe hain. Jab dekhte hain samaya ko gavaa rahe hain, toh maaloom hai kyaa hota hai? Taras toh aataa hai, lekin taras ke saath2 jo sambandh hai, vah sambandh bhee kheenchtaa hai. Phir dil hota hai ki abhee2 Baba se chutti lekar Sakar roop may unhon kaa dhyaan khinchvaaye. LEKIN Sakar ROOP KAA PART TOH POORAA HEE HUVAA. ISLIYE DOR/DUR SE HEE SAKAASH DETE HAIN. Baba jaise Sakar roop may laal jhandi dikhaate thay na. Vaise vatan may bhee. Lekin dekhne may aataa hai ki Avyakt ras ko, Avyakt madad ko bahut thode le paate hain. ....... Ek prashn poochaa thaa ki ab jo baapdada any/uny tann may aate hain toh jaise Sakar roop may Murli chalate thay, vaise hee kyon naheen chalaathay? Kyaa vaise hee Murli naheen chalaa sakthay hain? Kyon bhaashaa badlee, kyon tareekaa badlaa? Aisey prashn bahuton ko uth_taa hai. Jabki tum bhaashan kar saktey ho BapDada ko koyi bhee tan dwaaraa Murli chalaanaa mushkil hai? Lekin kyon naheen chalaate hain? Jis tan dwaraa padhaane kaa paart thaa vah padhayi kaa course toh pooraa huvaa. Ab phir padhaayi padhane ke liye naheen aate. Vah course thaa, usee tan dwaaraa part pooraa ho chukaa hai. Abhee toh aate hain milney ke liye, bahlaane ke liye. Aur mukhy baatein kounsee hain? Jaise ashareeri. Karmaateet ban karke kyaa kiyaa? Ek second may panchi ban ud gayaa. Sakar shareer se ek second may udey na. Toh ab padhaayi poori huyi. Baaki ek kaary rahaa huvaa hai. Saath le jaane kaa. Isliye ab sirf milney, Avyakt shikshaavon se bahlaaney aur udaaney ke liye aate hain. POINTS KE POINTS PADHAAYI KAA ROOP AB NAHEEN CHAL SAKTAA HAI. Abhee course revise ho rahaa hai. Lekin kitney samay may revise karenge? .....

= ................ Teacher does not teach now, but there is help. For the revised course, holiday is taken from the school and it is done at home which is called as homework. But, there would be connection. The connection would be there till the final paper. During the revised course (homework), teacher will not be present with students all the time. So- now teacher is seeing from far…..............But, how he had been close to you during the period of study(Sakar), now he is not so close (together with you). Now, he sees by sitting at above…....Some children do revised course well, some waste their time. So it happens in mind (of BBaba) that let me take permission from (Shiv)Baba and come in Sakar to draw attention of the children. But, the part through Sakar is already finished/completed. Hence gives power/sakaash from far. ............ One question was asked- now when BapDada comes in another body, why he does not speak Murli how he used to speak while being in Sakar? Cannot Bap-Dada (BapDada) cannot speak Murli in the same way? Why the language and the way changed? To many such questions arise. When you do give speech, is it difficult to BapDada to do so in any body? But, why he does not do it now? Through which body the part of teaching had been there, it is done/completed. Now, Bap-Dada does not come to teach study. That course had been there which is (already) completed in through that body itself . Now, he comes to meet, to nourish/recreate (bahalaanaa) . And, what is the main thing? To become bodyless. What did (BBaba) do after becoming karmaateet? Within a second, he became bird and flew. From the corporeal body, he flew within a second, is it not? So- now, the study is completed. One work is left- to take all home. So- now, just to meet, to recreate using Avyakt directions/teachings, and to make fly Bap-Dada come. The point by pointwise form of study cannot happen/continue now. ....

The above Murli point disproves the PBKs' claim of saying god now enters in dixit and part is being played in corporeal and the children get company of Father in the same way like BKs had in the beginning.


The Murli point also says- now God will not teach pointwise by pointwise and the study is already completed through the same body. But, PBKs believe god is ready to do discussions and discussions and speaks in the same way as he had spoken through BBaba.

But, OK- PBKs may have different interpretation for this.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by shivsena » 26 Jan 2013

Very good and self-explanatory avaykt Vani point...bhat Bhai.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by mbbhat » 26 Jan 2013

Yes, dear soul.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by arjun » 26 Jan 2013

The above Murli point disproves the PBKs' claim of saying god now enters in dixit and part is being played in corporeal and the children get company of Father in the same way like BKs had in the beginning.


The Murli point also says- now God will not teach pointwise by pointwise and the study is already completed through the same body. But, PBKs believe god is ready to do discussions and discussions and speaks in the same way as he had spoken through BBaba.

But, OK- PBKs may have different interpretation for this.
Teaching is over. Clarification is being given.
The part through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is that of subtle Shankar despite being in a corporeal body. That is the reason why Shankar has been shown sitting on a globe above Brahma Baba in the picture of the World Tree.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by Roy » 27 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:But, OK- PBKs may have different interpretation for this.
This is my interpretation of the extract...

"Teacher(ShivBaba) does not teach now (in Mt Abu), but there is help. For the revised course, holiday is taken from the school (while students study and prepare for high school - the AIVV) and it is done at home which is called as homework. But, there would be (a practical) connection (even in the future). The connection would be there till the final paper (in the form of the Father, played through the body of Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram). During the revised course (homework), teacher will not be present with students all the time. So (for) now the teacher(ShivBaba) is seeing from afar (as He is now in the body of Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram, and this is completely incognito, and not recognised by anybody at this time). But, how He had been close to you during the period of study(narrating the Sakar Murlis through Sakar Brahma Baba Krishna), now He is not so close(the part of the mother in corporeal form, has been completed). Now, He sees by sitting above(i.e. away from the children in Mt Abu). Some children do revised course well (and will become PBKs in the AIVV), some waste their time (and will remain as BKs). So it comes in the mind (of Avyakt Brahma Baba Krishna), that let me take permission from (Shiv)Baba and come in (the) Sakar (form of Dadi Gulzar, whom he has a lot of attachment to), to draw attention of the children. But the part (of narrating the Murli) through Sakar (Brahma Baba Krishna) is alread completed. Hence (ShivBaba) gives power/sakaash from afar... One question was asked - now when BapDada comes in another body, why does he not speak the Murli how he used to speak, while being in Sakar? Cannot BapDada speak Murli in the same way (as before)? Why (has) the language and the way (of speaking) changed(why the strained whispering voice)? To many such questions arise. When you do give speech, is it difficult for BapDada(Avyakt Brahma Baba Krishna) to do so in any body(because of his subtle body, that causes pressure on the Chariot's organs, so they don't function as well)? But why does He(ShivBaba) not do it now? The part of (elementary or basic) teaching (in the form of the mother) through the body (of Sakar Brahma Baba Krishna) that had been there (previously), is now completed. Now, BapDada(Avyakt Brahma Baba Krishna) does not come to teach study (as Father Shiv did through his corporeal body). That course had been there which is (now) completed through that body itself . Now, he(avayakt Brahma Baba Krishna) comes to meet, to nourish/recreate (bahalaanaa)... and, what is the main thing?... To become bodiless. What did (Brahma Baba Krishna) do after becoming karmateet(finishing the karmas of the body, but has not yet become complete in knowledge - Brahma so Vishnu)? Within a second, he became a bird and flew. From the corporeal body, he flew within a second, is it not? So now the study is completed(i.e. the basic study course has been fully laid out). One work is left - to take all home (through churning on and inculcating the study). So now, BapDada(Avyakt Brahma Baba Krishna, in the remembrance of Father Shiv) comes just to meet, to recreate using Avyakt directions, and to make (you children) fly(become bodiless). The point by pointwise form of study cannot happen now (through him - as He is not Father Shiv, and has not become complete in knowledge himself - yet he can teach dharna, that he practised hard himself, whilst still in the body)." [Av 26.06.69]

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by mbbhat » 27 Jan 2013

Good attempt from both the PBKs. Thank you. Let us see whether each one certifies the other.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by Roy » 27 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:Good attempt from both the PBKs. Thank you. Let us see whether each one certifies the other.
I am in agreement with what Arjun Bhai has stated... teaching of the basic knowledge in the form of the mother is completed. Clarification of the basic teachings, and their deeper meanings, takes place through subtle Shankar... i.e. the Sakar body of Shankar, who remains in a subtle state of churning knowledge and soul consciousness at all times(the no 1 effort maker).

"Do you think that we should also leave the body and become Avyakt (like Brahma Baba Krishna did, in 1969)? Do not follow in this matter. Father Brahma(Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar, after intensely studying the Murli for 5-6 years, from 1969/70) became Avyakt (i.e. renounced the corporeal world intellectually, whilst still in the body, in 1976) so that you could see the example of the (practical) Avyakt form, and follow easily." [Av 13.03.81]

"Incorporeal Father(Shiv) also meets the children through avaykt Brahma(Prajapita aka Shankar, from 1976 - not subtle bodied Brahma Baba Krishna). Incorporeal Father also likes this company of angels very much." [Av 18.01.87]

"I (Shiv) do not enter Brahma(Baba Krishna), the dweller of the Subtle Region." [Mu 04.11.72]

"Brahma(Baba Krishna) who has ascended to the Subtle Regions (in 1969), cannot be called Prajapita - Creation is done in the Corporeal World, not in the Subtle Regions. So the creator Prajapita has to be in the Corporeal World (until this task of creation is completed at the end)." [Mu 05.11.92]

"ShivBaba(Father Shiv) is subtle(incorporeal). Similarly Shankar(Prajapita-Ram) is also subtle(i.e. he too becomes completely subtle or incorporeal at the end, through his supreme efforts)." [Mu 29.09.77]

"Father had explained that Prajapita Brahma(Ram), who is a bodily being now(i.e. an effort maker soul)... he only becomes subtle(100% incorporeal, like Father Shiv at the end, whilst remaining in his corporeal body - this is the complete angelic stage of Shankar)." [Mu 23.01.84]

"Angels mean kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by mbbhat » 27 Jan 2013

Good and thank you.

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Re: Flaws in PBK philosophy.

Post by shivsena » 28 Jan 2013

arjun wrote:
Teaching is over. Clarification is being given.
What is the difference between teaching and giving clarification ??
I thought that teaching something and clarifying something is one and the same thing.

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Re: Questions about PBK philosophy

Post by arjun » 28 Jan 2013

Teaching = narration of Murlis/Gita
Clarification = explanation of Murlis/Gita

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Re: Questions about PBK philosophy

Post by shivsena » 28 Jan 2013

arjun wrote:Teaching = narration of Murlis/Gita
Clarification = explanation of Murlis/Gita
Imo, Narration of Murlis in a complex code manner is the setting of an intellectual exam paper.(buddhi ka khel) and this intellectual exam does not need immediate clarification(as -Virendra Dev Dixit is doing)...the time given to solve the exam paper is the period 1969-2018(50 years) for all students who are going to come in future...and whosoever solves this exam paper of identifying the yatharth -form of ShivBaba(no. 1 shivshakti) will be titled Gyani-tu souls(shivshakti-pandavsena) and will get a place in 108 rosary beads....there is no need whatsoever for shiv to clarify, what he has narrated in Murlis, through' another Chariot-Virendra Dev Dixit....it does not make any sense to me.

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Re: Questions about PBK philosophy

Post by Roy » 28 Jan 2013

shivsena wrote:Imo, Narration of Murlis in a complex code manner is the setting of an intellectual exam paper.(buddhi ka khel) and this intellectual exam does not need immediate clarification(as -Virendra Dev Dixit is doing)...the time given to solve the exam paper is the period 1969-2018(50 years) for all students who are going to come in future...and whosoever solves this exam paper of identifying the yatharth -form of ShivBaba(no. 1 shivshakti) will be titled Gyani-tu souls(shivshakti-pandavsena) and will get a place in 108 rosary beads....there is no need whatsoever for shiv to clarify, what he has narrated in Murlis, through' another Chariot-Virendra Dev Dixit....it does not make any sense to me.
I would agree, that the Murlis were narrated in a complex code manner, which obviously wasn't done by Brahma Baba Krishna himself, because he did not understand what was going on, and predicted a practical destruction in 1976, when the Murlis were also telling us that the Confluence Age lasts for 100 years... But how many souls actually understood or were interested in this... None really until Virendra Dev Dixit ji came on the scene and started ruffling feathers with his radical interpretations of what Father Shiv had narrated; and how much was he helped in this by Father Shiv's presence in him? I would never have gone on this journey of churning and thinking, if it wasn't for the parts of Father, teacher, Satguru played through Virendra Dev Dixit ji... any more than i would have become a Brahmin, if Brahma Baba Krishna hadn't played the part of the mother(teacher). When i was studying English literature at school... we studied the war poems of people like Wilfred Owen and Sigfried Sassoon... and the teacher clarified for us what these poets were saying in their poems, because without her help, i wouldn't have understood a lot of what was in them. She wasn't playing the part of the mother(teacher) simply reading poems to us; she was helping us understand them, by playing the part of the more senior or advanced teacher, clarifying the deeper meanings of the poems. So is not this what Father Shiv does through his two main chariots... He narrates through Krishna the mother(teacher); then later he clarifies through Ram, the (advanced or senior)teacher.

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Re: Questions about PBK philosophy

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:... and predicted a practical destruction in 1976, when the Murlis were also telling us that the Confluence Age lasts for 100 years...
But on the Ladder poster, the Confluence Age is stated as both "40 years" and "Destruction in 10 years" (leading me to presume they were made in 1966 - please check) ... so did the Murlis as that time also say "Confluence Age 40 years"? And where did that come from?

I remember from my time they said there was also speculation that the Confluence Age was 100 years from Lekhraj Kirpalani birth not any supposed incarnation of Shiva, therefore we are handicapping ourselves, and like a 'street beggar' caste the BKWSU is deliberated handicapping its followers for the sake of its business, by not allowing access to the most original Murli teachings. It like archeology ... trying read a message off a series of broken clay tablets with bits missing.

What Shivsena and Roy seems to be saying
  • BK teachings are all about simply conforming - and holding Lekhraj Kirpalani's/Seniors hand and crawling?
    PBKs are about making people thing again - and holding Virendra Dev Dixit/Seniors hand and toddling?
    Post-BK/PBK is thinking entirely for yourself - and holding no ones hand/the truly incorporeal and starting to walk? Actually looking at the example set by each leader and doing it rather than just watching it.
Therefore, it is a mistake to approach Advance Knowledge in a BK manner, e.g. looking for something to believe and mentally conform to ... the purpose is not to simply believe but start to think again, and think more deeply. But that perhaps it is not the end of the road?

Of course, if this is a spiritual path, then individuals might chose to stop and rest at each level and assist others to climb up to that level ... and there will be an equal proportion of 'evil' individuals trying to keep others down in order to protect their position.

To the BKs, Virendra Dev Dixit (and the PBKs) is just someone having massive Maya ... but what he is really teaching are not his teachings but his example of spiritual self-sufficiency after having been outcast by the BKWSU and denied its nourishment.

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