Flaws in PBK Philosophy

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mbbhat
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 19 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 175) Did Mr. Dixit send Shiv back to Paramdham from 1969 till 1976?

1)Usually PBKs make fun of BKs, by saying - "after 1969 BKs sent Shiv to Paramdham". [But, BKs believe Shiv is in Subtle Region with subtle Brahma and visits Dadi Gulzar during Avyakt milan]. So, their criticisms have no value.

2)Now- as per PBKs
--God Shiv cannot be with subtle Brahma.
--Subtle Region does not exist practically.
--They believe Shiv entered Dixit only in 1976- given on the same page of the previous link. There Mr Dixit says- after the womb period of 4 months( = 40 years) the fetus becomes matured and soul enters. So, in "his own view" Shiv entered him only in 1976.

3)So- WHERE DID Mr. Dixit sent Shiv from 1969 till 1976? BACK TO Paramdham?

4)Also- what do they believe here when Murli says- - "Shiv does not ride the Chariot whole day"?
[For BKs, it is easy to reply. Shiv (alone) could be in Subtle Region - even from 1936 till 1969- because BKs believe Subtle Region practically exists]. Also- there is absolutely no harm even if we consider Shiv goes to Paramdham, after his service in Sakar Brahma is over, everyday in Cong Age. Any problem??]

5)But- Mr. Dixit just took Murli points in isolated and twisting manner, to misinterpret the Murli points. But, he himself failed and fell into his own trap even here.

# Flaw No. 176) WOMB OF MR DIXT FAILED BEFORE EVEN A MONTH:-

6)As per Mr Dixit, his womb got failed within 5 years so within half a month, [in his own view- one month = 10 years]. So, then the womb changed into Lekhraj Kirpalani, and it was till 1969. Again from 1969 till 1976, "NO WOMB"'. MOST INTERESTING THING IS- AFTER 1976, THERE ARE TWO SOULS IN WOMB OF DIXIT - BOTH SHIV AND CHILD Krishna- AND ONE OF THEM IS A GHOST".

# Flaw No. 177) Mr Dixit inadvertently gave title FAILURE even to God:-
# Flaw No. 178) "Title Holder Concept" of PBKs fails once again:-

7)Another great error here is- If Shiv did not enter anyone to speak Murli from 1969 till 1976, then it looks FULLY BAD, because God himself was ABSENT FROM Yagya.

8)Regarding- "Sevakram leaving Yagya in 1942" - Mr. Dixit interprets it as his failure. So the period 1969 till 1976- God leaving Yagya for such a long period- is not Mr. Dixit inadvertently giving the same title to God?

9) As per Mr. Dixit, when a Principal goes on leave, someone will take the position as in-charge. So- if from 1942 to 1969 DLR was title holder, who was title holder from 1969 til 1976? Why God did not take any title holder Chariot during that time? Does not this prove that the story of "title holder concept" of Mr Dixit is once again just COMPLETELY FALSE.

Another simple logic is- When the real principal is on leave, the in-charge principal (maybe he may not have FULL executive powers*], but will deliver his duty as PRINCIPAL only, not as just a lecturer or a clerk. So- how can Mr Dixit say- God played only role of Mother through DLR, not Father, teacher and Guru? Is this not TWISTING the Murli points, and a false propaganda?

*- But, if the real principal goes on leave for SUCH a LONG PERIOD- here- it is 30 yrs, then the in-charge principal will execute FULL POWERS of a principal. Not only that- if the absence is so long duration, the real/first principal may TOTALLY lose his position, is it not?

10)Most interesting- From 1969 till 1976, it was only false Gita (Avyakt Murlis= words of just Krishna- in PBK view).
---So- was even God satisfied with his children listening just to false Gita?
---Did even God take leave, like Sevakram, during this period, and forget HIS DUTY?

By playing role of HK Hood, Mr Dixit defamed God to the HIGHEST level and also committed HIGHEST spiritual suicide.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 20 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 179) Mr Dixit inadvertently gives DATE for Shiv's entry:-

1) Mr Dixit quotes the Murli point- "When God enters, no one knows, even the Chariot"- and says- "date of entrance of Shiv CANNOT BE KNOWN". But, he says- Shiv first entered Kamala Devi in 1936. HOW DID Mr. DIXIT KNOW God FIRST entered Kamala Devi? Is this not against "his own view"?

2)He quotes the Murli point - "When Murli comes through the mouth, it is an INDICATION of entrance of Shiv".

3)But, as per Mr. Dixit- "their Adi Brahma (Kamala Devi) DID NOT give any clarifications in 1936. She only played the role of "sun_naa and sunaanaa = Hear and narrate", due to which she is considered to be the FALSE Gita by the PBKs. So- if that was NEITHER a Murli nor a CLARIFICATION, how can Mr Dixit (or anyone) say or think that God entered her, then?

4)If PBKs believe even God plays role of "sun_naa and sunaanaa" (which is again ridiculous- making God look silly) - God could have played that role first through DLR. WHY NOT? How can PBKs deny this possibility?

5)Also- Mr. Dixit once again gives date 1976 as SECOND entrance of Shiv. (HIS WOMB concept is FULLY RIDICULOUS, as already explained in previous posts). Let us still agree with him. He says even that date had been announced 10 years before, in 1966 itself.

HOW can date of SECOND entrance too be known or announced in advance? [He usually criticizes BKs for giving dates of Avyakt milan in Dadi Gulzar in advance].

6)Also- he has also ANNOUNCED even the date of THIRD entrance/Revelation of Shiv (as 2016) - coming out of the womb- which he says- is real date of TRUE Shiv Jayanti so Gita Jayanti. Is God a human, to compare Him with WOMB theory?

7)By putting his name with God, Mr Dixit committed blunders and spiritual suicides.
------

# Flaw No. 180) Mr. Dixit's theory of "Child Krishna in Conf Age" fails again:-

8) Mr. Dixit named Brahma DLR as Krishna from 1936 itself. It is a blatant violation of Srimath. But, still let us agree with him. Now- a Krishna should become Narayan, is it not? When would B Baba become eligible to get title Narayan in Conf Age? According to Mr. Dixit, Krishna becomes a 'ghost'. And, that 'ghost' controls others, and creates even eclipses on others.

9)Mr. Dixit or PBKs might have thought that they had put name of DLR down by giving him title child Krishna. But, by doing so, they have defamed the highest deity of creation, Shri Krishna. Are they AWARE of what they are doing or saying?

10) Not only that- in his own view, , DLR gets a deity title (Krishna) in 1936 itself. But, Mr Dixit gets the title of deity (Narayan) only AFTER 40 years. So- WHO WOULD BE HIGHER?

11)In other words- a human soul (child Krishna) DOES NOT HAVE ANY "WOMB PERIOD." Child Krishna gets birth INSTANTLY! But, God has a womb period- that too of 90 years! What a logic?

By trying to put Krishna down, Mr Dixit had INADVERTENTLY made him the greatest hero. And- by putting his name with God, he defamed himself, as well as God.

12)Also- Mr Dixit took title Narayan on himself, which he believes that it is applicable from 1976. But, he even takes title "Conf Age Krishna" again/also on himself. [to twist the Murli points in his favour].
--- So- are there TWO Conf Age Krishnas?
--- Also- as per theory of Mr Dixit, PBKs are those souls who DIRECTLY get transformed from Nar(human) into Narayan. So- can he ever take title Krishna? taking title Krishna (in his view) would be INFERIOR, is it not? If he changes DIRECTLY from an ORDINARY HUMAN or 'Nar', to an ELEVATED DEITY or 'Narayan', then where does the question of considering himself to be child 'Krishna' of Conf Age arise AT ALL???

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 21 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 181) PBK False Propaganda of Gita - fails once again:-

# Flaw No. 182) Mr Dixit INADVERTENTLY certifies intellect of B Baba as great:-

1)As per Mr Dixit, the level of understanding(LU) of Kamala Devi was lower, hence they give her title 'FG'. And- LU of sister Vedanti was better, hence they call her (mostly in their revised version) as 'TG'.
---But, Mr. Dixit inadvertently certifies LU of B Baba was PERHAPS the GREATEST, as Mr Dixit himself claims B baba had IMMEDIATELY understood about the (so called) clarifications.
---So IF Mr Dixit says - B Baba had understood the meaning of clarifications, given in 1936 itself, he is INADVERTENTLY certifying B Baba as having ability to understand on the VERY FIRST INSTANT itself, so in PBK view, B Baba cannot be 'baby-intellect'.

2)Mr Dixit accuses BKs that due to putting the name 'PITASHREE', whom he calls as "child Krishna" - (by his way of misinterpretation), the Gita(Sakar Murlis) BECAME false. But-

3)In their own view- till 1947, Yagya was in full control of their 'TG' and 'FG' (refer to Flaw No. 56 - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=632&p=39535&hilit=1942#p39535 ).
---Also- PBKs believe they left Yagya by losing faith in Baba and entered into the stomach of python. So, was there True Gita (True Knowledge till 1947)? They themselves believe there was not enough knowledge.
--- whatever it is- whether they say knowledge till 1947 as true or false- they CANNOT accuse BKWSU (till 1947), as Mr. Dixit claims "till 1947, the ENTIRE Yagya was in control of PBK souls".

4)And- FROM 1947 TILL 1969, PBKs believe God played JUST ROLE OF MOTHER through DLR - and not Father, teacher, and Guru. So- CAN it be called as True Gita?- "in PBK view"? [Mostly, they even call Sakar Murlis as- just vedas, and clarifications of Mr Dixit as real Gita].
---If it cannot be TG, WHAT is the point in accusing that ONLY by- "putting name of Pitashree, the Gita became false"?
---If it is TG, they are INADVERTENTLY CERTIFYING that Most beloved ShivBaba has played role of Father, TEACHER and SADGURU through B Baba, is it not?
---So, IN ANY CASE, Mr Dixit once again falls into his own trap.

5)In their own view, ALL THE THREE PERSONALITIES FAILED TO REALIZE GOD's ROLE, or THEIR OWN ROLE, and they left Yagya by 1942/47. So- Mr Dixit inadvertently certifies himself and his own great hands to be 'BABIES' - AT LEAST TILL 1976. They returned to Yagya only after that.

6)TWISTING, DOUBLE STANDARDS of Mr. Dixit are more clearly visible. If we see all these failures- think, it may not be wrong to say that-

# Flaw No. 183) Mr. Dixit INADVERTENTLY certifies himself as 'BABY-INTELLECT':- (and perhaps even more)

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 23 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 184) Another spiritual suicide while trying to misuse Murli points regarding Ram:-

Most of the times- the Murli point says- "Ram failed". Mr. Dixit thought that this would be an opportunity to say/interpret- "in the quarter exam of Conf. Age, Ram failed".
But, he failed* to notice that there are also few Murli points which say in FUTURE TENSE and Present/ongoing stage. But, since many PBKs had lost their judging power totally - they argue without any sense- viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2642&p=51153#p51153

*- Probably he may have noticed even those Murli points. But, since their frequency is lesser, he may have taken the risk and assumed that none of his followers would notice the same.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 23 Mar 2016

I saw the points but did not see future tense, please, post it here.

For Ram and Sita it is said that they will serve Radha and Krishna and Radha and Krishna take 84 births, and if they will serve them, they will be there along with them in the beginning of the Golden Age.


= RESPONSE =

SM 29-5-83(2, 3):- Satyug treta may aur koyi dharm hota naheen. Ab sthaapnaa ho rahi hai. Ram chandr ko kshatriypanaa ki nishaani de di hai. Barobar yuddh ke maidaan may thaa. Parantu poori jeeth na honey kaaran fail ho gayaa. Is kaaran sooryavamshi ban naheen saktaa. PRASHN UTH_TAA HAI Ram SITA Satyug MAY AATE HAIN? HAAN AATE HAIN. PARANTU NAAPAAS HOTHAY HAIN. ISLIYE JO PAAS HUYE HAIN, UNKEY AAGE BHAREE DHOTE HAIN. Radha Krishn jo hain vah LN bante hain. Jinhoney bhee padhaayi padhee, vah Satyug may toh zaroor aayenge. Kyonki avinaashi gyaan ka vinaash naheen hota. Praja toh banti hai na. Koyi chale jaate hain, phir chakr lagaakar aate hain. Jaayenge kahaan? Shamaa ek hi hai. Parvaaney anek hain. Toh shamaa par aate rahenge. Bhaaganti ho jaanevaale bhee aayenge. Sadguru ki nindaa karaayi hai. PHIR BHEE BABA KE PAAS AATE HAIN TOH SAMJHAAYAA JAATAA HAI PHIR SE TUM YA GYAAN UTHAA SAKTEY HO. VAH FEEL KARTE HAIN BAROBAR HUMAAREE HEE BHOOL HAI. TOH UNKO BHI SHARAN LENI PADTI HAI. PHIR UNKI BHI SEVA KARENGE. ANTH TAK FULL RAHAM KARNAA HAI. KITNAA BHI VIGHN DAALTHAY HAIN. PHIR BHI KAHENGE, BHAL AAVO. TRIAL KARO. MANAA NAHEEN HAI. BAAP HAI HEE RAHAMDIL. Tum unkey bachchey ho na. Kahte hain Maya ne bhatkaayaa hai. Phir bhi unki service ki jaati hai. Sharan aate hain toh phir uthaanaa hai. Avagun ko nikaal gunvaan ban_naa chaahiye. Baap kab dushman ban naheen saktaa. Behad ke baap kahenge bachche sukhi raho. Raham aataa hai. Kahaan jaayenge. Aur toh koyi jagah naheen jahaan Baap se varsaa le sakey. -73-, 74 [Ram, Bhaganti, service]

= ... Ramchandra has been shown as a warrior(with bows). Of course, he was on the battle-field. But, due to not attaining full victory, he FAILED. For this reason he CANNOT become 'Suryavanshi'.
The question arises- DOES Ram AND SITA COME IN Golden Age? YES, THEY DO COME. But, they FAIL. HENCE THEY BOW DOWN TO (or serve) THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED. RK become LN. ...

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 185) The Moustache did not get dirt even after fallen!:-
sita wrote:I saw the points but did not see future tense, please, post it here.
Read all the Murli points there.
1)Mu Point No. 4) says- ""WE will not fail". - a clear future tense.
[Oh, mostly you might be expecting the words in 100% FULLY- like- "Ram WILL fail". Sorry, that is not there. But, mu points No. 9 and 10 are enough.]

2)Also Baba compares Ram with the Chariot B Baba and Kumarka Dadi- etc - and is saying- when compared to Ram, they will win. - which is again in future tense.

3)Also- you may note down ALL THE SECOND CLASS WORDS SAID IN FUTURE TENSE AS WELL - to Ram in the Murli points - bharee dhonaa, nokar karnaa, anth may raajaayi paana, etc.

4)The Murli points No. 06 clearly says- naapaas hothey hain, isliye padhe huye ke aage bharee dhote hain. = They(R and S) fail- (obviously - not to past, but linked to future). Hence they serve those who had passed.

PBKs still like to argue in the way as if- "the moustache did not get dirt even after fallen"
For Ram and Sita it is said that they will serve Radha and Krishna and Radha and Krishna take 84 births, and if they will serve them, they will be there along with them in the beginning of the Golden Age.
Mostly Ram and Sita need not be servants of first L and N, could be of LATER generations, - already put there.

----------------- ------------

Flaw No. 186) PBKs too fix their program in advance regarding Shiv's entry:-

1)A PBk questioned me- "BapDada's program in Madhuban is already fixed in advance, is that not against Murli point?"

I said to him- "when so many children are there, if all have to take benefit, then it should be fixed in advance". I then asked him about Mr Dixit- "Is not visit of Mr Dixit to PBK Gitapathasalas is not informed in advance?" He got some hesitation. Then he replied, "It is NOT mentioned to everyone. It is mentioned only to that Gitapathashala/centre- that too just 2 to 3 days in advance". So- what point is there in their argument?

[Actually, the question is SILLY. Is Shiv going to get affected by these things?
The Murli point actually compares God with G Aged Krishna. What Baba says is- entrance of God cannot be known, but entrance of a human soul into womb is known or can be felt (by the movement in the womb).

But, Mr Dixit mis interpreted this Murli point and committed spiritual suicide even here.]

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 24 Mar 2016

So, it seems that what you like to prove is that even if something is said in present tense it may mean future tense.

The matter about fixing a program is that no gitpatshata or Mini Madhuban can invoke Baba to tell him come here on this date. He comes on his own. But is is also about the body. When Shiv comes and goes no one can know, not even the Chariot.


= RESPONSE =

SM 29-5-83(2, 3):- PRASHN UTH_TAA HAI Ram SITA Satyug MAY AATE HAIN? HAAN AATE HAIN. PARANTU NAAPAAS HOTHAY HAIN. ISLIYE JO PAAS HUYE HAIN, UNKEY AAGE BHAREE DHOTE HAIN.

= ... The question arises- DOES Ram AND SITA COME IN Golden Age? YES, THEY DO COME.
But, they FAIL. HENCE THEY BOW DOWN TO (or serve) THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED. ...

"But, they FAIL"
Is the above PAST, PRESENT or FUTURE???

ShivBaba is NOT invoked to come on a particular date, in the particular sense, as per confounded understanding of PBKs. The programmes are fixed, in advance, after due consultation with BapDada, through a trance messenger, to facilitate the meeting with souls from all over India, as well as abroad. ShivBaba comes on his own, in accordance with the agreed schedule, unless unable to do so due to other reasons. NO ONE CAN KNOW, the EXACT INSTANT or MOMENT when Shiva ACTUALLY comes and goes in/from the body of Dadi Gulzar, not even the Chariot.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Mar 2016

sita wrote:So, it seems that what you like to prove is that even if something is said in present tense it may mean future tense.
Sorry dear. It is clearly linked to future(Golden Age). So, it is for future. If you do not like to accept, it is left to you. It is OK.
-------------- --------

# Flaw No. 187) Regarding invoking of Shiv:-

This is additions to Flaw No. 75 - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50637&hilit=date#p50637 and 134 - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50999&hilit=date#p50999

1)A Murli point says- "Shiv cannot be invoked like human souls". PBKs use the Murli point just point to BKs, saying- "BKs invoke Avyakt BapDada's milans in Mount Abu. So- Shiv is not coming there. It is just Brahma Baba coming".

But, PBKs themselves fail to reply to their own queries as put in the above links. Now, to another one similar. Reference from - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1860&start=105 reply from Sita - on 23rd March 2016- just before Post No. 01.
sita wrote:no one gives message for Shiv to come on this earth for the first time, because he does not come on being invoked. He comes on his own, when it is his time, not even a second less or more, and people don't know when it is his time.
Another question is there, that how does Shiv come to know about the program of his coming. The trance messengers reach only as far as the Subtle Region, they do not reach to Paramdham, but even if they do reach, how would they communicate there, where there is no thought, no sound, no movement, and souls are like non-living. If Shiv does not come there in the Subtle Region dweller, how does Shiv come to know about the program that is fixed for his coming, how is he communicated that program.
2)So, as per PBKs, Shiv does not need any message for the first time entrance, but needs for later entrances. Any logic? Who gives message to Shiv to enter into Dixit now?
The matter about fixing a program is that no gitpatshata or Mini Madhuban can invoke Baba to tell him come here on this date. He comes on his own. But it is also about the body. When Shiv comes and goes no one can know, not even the Chariot.
3)Even in BKWSU, no one can invoke Bapadada. They just fix the date. When body of Gulzar Dadi is ready and sits on guddi, Shiv and B baba come. If whenever Mr Dixit is ready, Shiv can come, so why not in DG? Any problem?
sita wrote: The matter about invoking is not that souls are invoked from Paramdham. People invoke souls whom they already know, who have already played some part in some body and have left the body[/b] and have taken rebirth or wander like a spirit and they invoke him in a Brahmin. But you cannot invoke a soul directly from Paramdham, because neither your invocation will reach there, nor can you address any soul there, how will you recognize which soul you are invoking, nor will any soul hear your invocation.
4)As Shiv does not ride Chariot whole day, and just point of light - even Shiv is like inert, and even he needs message for later entrances- how do PBKs expect Shiv to come in Dixit without sending any message?

5)Baba has said- Chariot does not ride the Chariot whole day? During other period- where does point Shiv reside? - in PBK view?
sita wrote:It is not me who thinks that souls are inert in Paramdham. It is a Murli point, they are like in a seed form stage there. I think they come automatically, the Drama, matter attracts them, when the right time strikes, their part is automatically enacted. Like a seed lies under the earth like non-living, but when the right time and circumstances emerge, when in the drama the right time, the right soul in the right body, ready to receive them gets ready - they come.
6)I also believe the same. Again- why not even ins second entrances as well? If message is not needed during first time/entrance, why message is necessary during second entrance, which is more simpler.
All souls are points of lights alike there and non-living. Only when they come in the body, through the part they play, through the qualities they expressed through the body it is realized who is Supreme Soul, who is ordinary soul.
7)How have PBKs recognized role of Mr Dixit as the one who gets 84 births- just by seeing his one body? Can PBKs distinguish the roles of B Baba, ShivBaba and Krishna bachcha in Mr Dixit? If yes, have they felt entrance of B baba in Mr Dixit? Also- are they able to recognize role of B baba in kamala Devi too? If yes, please explain in detail of these.
Just a point of light has no qualities.
8) Baba says- I give visions to devotees EVEN IN Bhaktimarg. Do you think in Bhaktimarg, Shiv descends from Paramdham to give vision or enters in a body and then gives visions?

9) So- a soul - point of light is like a 'NIRLEP' for PBKs. Going too much into extreme would also become an intellectual suicide.

--------------
# Flaw No. 188:- Regarding invoking of Krishna or Brahma:-

10)According to PBKs- Brahma Baba comes in Mount Abu DUE TO BEING INVOKED.
But, PBKs believe B Baba comes in Mr. Dixit too- Without being invoked?

11)PBKs believe B Baba has attachment towards BKWSU, hence he visits Mount Abu, but, needs invoking there. But, in AIVV, without being invoked, he enters. So, where the attachment is more? in BKWSU or AIVV? [They may be now happy to say- B baba more belongs to AIVV than BKWSU - a usual way of twisting].

12) Again- PBKs believe B baba enters at least two PBK bodies- K Devi too. (But, in BKWSU, just in one - DG). According to PBKs, B Baba's duration in Mr Dixit would be more than DG. [Since in BKWSU, Avyakt milans are just few days in a year].

So- again - where the attachment is more? in AIVV?

13)But, PBKs believe the cause for ECLIPSE OF Kamala Devi is due to B Baba. (they may give that as one of the reasons for Kamala Devi to leave Yagya- not sure). Can this be called as - true attachment? - separating Dixit and KD? - in PBK view.

14) If B Baba creates eclipse in Kamala Devi(AIVV), does he create eclipse in BKWSU too?

15)According to Mr Dixit says- "if more souls enter a person, he is weaker, lesser the no. of souls enter a person he is stronger"". Now, "as per PBK view", in B Baba just Shiv enters, but in Dixit both Shiv and B baba enter. Even from this point, Mr Dixit proves to be inferior. [Other points already put earlier].

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 24 Mar 2016

ShivBaba is NOT invoked to come on a particular date, in the particular sense, as per confounded understanding of PBKs. The programmes are fixed, in advance, after due consultation with BapDada, through a trance messenger, to facilitate the meeting with souls from all over India, as well as abroad. ShivBaba comes on his own, in accordance with the agreed schedule, unless unable to do so due to other reasons. NO ONE CAN KNOW, the EXACT INSTANT or MOMENT when Shiva ACTUALLY comes and goes in/from the body of Dadi Gulzar, not even the Chariot.
Come on, there is change in the face, there used to be change in the voice, there was a jerk. They even light up the Lights when BapDada comes, how can you say no one knows, it becomes obvious to everyone there. I have even heard BKs telling that when BapDada comes a wave of love is spread.

The program is being fixed, it means there is bondage. No one can bind a soul who is always above any bondage, in the bondage of a program.

It is not known when Shiv comes and goes, but it is said that it can be known by the new, extraordinary points of knowledge he narrates. Even this criteria cannot be observed in the Avyakt Vanis. Now don't go into speculation how we defame BapDada, no. The narrater of the Ayakt anis is no doubt an elevated soul, it becomes obvious from the narration, a highly virtuous soul. A human soul, nothing more.
2)So, as per PBKs, Shiv does not need any message for the first time entrance, but needs for later entrances. Any logic? Who gives message to Shiv to enter into Dixit now?
No, he does not need any message for any entrance. Even more, when it was discussed that once having come down he does not go back until task is completed.
3)Even in BKWSU, no one can invoke Bapadada. They just fix the date. When body of Gulzar Dadi is ready and sits on guddi, Shiv and B Baba come. If whenever Mr Dixit is ready, Shiv can come, so why not in DG? Any problem?
Yes, because Dadi Gulzar is not Brahma. It is said that we should accept every word that comes from the Chariot as if it is Shibaba speaking. Even if it is the corporeal speaking, even if he speaks wrong, ShivBaba is responsible to put it right. It is said that even an ordinary, personal talk should be considered Murli. No such responsibility has been taken for whatever comes out from the mouth of Dadi Gulzar.

We don't know if and when the Supreme Soul come in the creation, because it does not make any difference. Whatever comes out from the mouth we consider it ShivBaba speaking.

Brother, I will stop responding to you, because you ask same question again and again.
7)How have PBKs recognized role of Mr Dixit as the one who gets 84 births- just by seeing his one body? Can PBKs distinguish the roles of B Baba, ShivBaba and Krishna bachcha in Mr Dixit? If yes, have they felt entrance of B Baba in Mr Dixit? Also- are they able to recognize role of B Baba in kamala Devi too? If yes, please explain in detail of these.
I have become hesitant to share any information with you, since your only desire seems to be to ridicule the advanced knowledge, hence you accept any information in a twisted way. There is so much literature, vcds and discussion, that you have plenty of material to discuss.

No entrance is felt and no difference is observed. If you look at it, it seems like an elderly person speaking. If you look at it it looks just like an ordinary person.
9) So- a soul - point of light is like a 'NIRLEP' for PBKs. Going too much into extreme would also become an intellectual suicide.
Nirlep means immune to the effect, it refers to the world of cause and effect.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 189) PBKs again committing suicide by making POINT Shiv as handicapped:-
sita wrote:Come on, there is change in the face, there used to be change in the voice, there was a jerk....
Facial change is due to entrance of B baba. Jerk could be due to Dadi becoming dummy (going to trance state). Exact entrance of Shiv cannot be still known. Already said many times. But, you take only half. It is left to you.
The program is being fixed, it means there is bondage. No one can bound a soul who is always above any bondage in the bondage of a program.
There is no bondage. It is egoless role of Bapadada. Baba says- I am bound in drama. Both ShivBaba and B baba re karmaateet, so no question of bondage.

But, for Mr. Dixit- "he moves gali2, and even goes to jail. He even dozes while giving drushti.
It is not known when Shiv comes and goes, but it is said that it can be known by the new, extraordinary points of knowledge he narrates.
Extra ordinary knowledge? :laugh: - Many are already available in the forum. Countless errors and blunders. put in this very topic.
Even this criteria cannot observed in the Avyakt Vanis.
Baba says- main teachings are already over. And- Baba will not do kanras of Mr. Dixit. Tell me a single point what is EXTRA ORDINARY CLARIFICATION OF MR. DIXIT?

BTW- If there is no extra ordinary logic, why does Mr. Dixit give clarification on Avyakt Murlis too?
Now don't go into speculaion how we defame BapDada, no. The narrater of the Ayakt anis is no dount an elevated soul, it becomes onvious from the narration a highly virtuous soul. A human soul, nothing more.
No doubt, PBKs defame. But, they will praise B baba, just as a scapegoat. But, I have already said- you may continue to defame. It just further increases level of spiritual suicides of PBKs.
No, he does not need any message for any entrance. Even more, when it was discussed that once having come down he does not go back until task is completed.
TOTAL FAILURE TO EXPLAIN. Deviating from the point The question asked was- Where Shiv would be AFTER leaving the Chariot? In the physical world or in Paramdham?
And as PBKs believe for later entrances- Shiv needs message, and as a point of light(which is inert in their view) nothing can be communicated to him, how can Shiv understand when to enter Mr. Dixit on a daily basis? "in PBK view""
.
So- PBKs again committing spiritual suicide by making point Shiv as inert, and considering him- even he too needs to be communicated in physical way to understand. They fall again into their own trap. :laugh:
Yes, because Dadi Gulzar is not Brahma. It is said that we should accept every word that comes from the Chariot as if it is Shibaba speaking. Even if it is the corporeal speaking, even if he speaks wrong, ShivBaba is responsible to put it right. It is said that even an ordinary, personal talk should be considered Murli. No such responsibility has been taken for whatever comes out from the mouth of Dadi Gulzar.
The question does not arise at all. Because DG would be dummy during Avyakt milan, and hence Avyakt Murlis are fully pure- NO NEED to take any other responsibility, as there is no interference from Dadi.

BTW- Mr. Dixit made even ShivBaba as scapegoat and has taken full freedom to commit mistakes and put all of them to ShivBaba.
We don't know if and when the Supreme Soul come in the creation, because it does not make any difference. Whatever comes out from the mouth we consider it ShivBaba speaking.
Again twisting and double standards.
--- So, in the same way- what is wrong if we believe the same in DG- because she is dummy. Even if they(AVs) are word of just B baba(in PBK view), why not consider them as that words of ShivBaba? Why should it make difference, when ShivBaba has taken full responsibility of words of B baba? Is there any need to listen to Mr. dixit?
Brother, I will stop responding to you, because you ask same question again and again.
It is left to you either to reply or not. I have put my views. No one is forced. I am writing here not just to you. Many will read these in future. For their benefit, I am writing, not (just) to you.
I have become hesitant to share any information with you, since your only desire seem to be to ridicule the advanced knowledge, hence you accept any information in a twisted way.
PBK twisting is already put here. If you wish to open your eyes, you may, dear. Else, thank you for your good wishes for me. Same to you.
No entrance is felt and no difference is observed. If you look at it, it seems like an elderly person speaking. If you look at it it looks just like an ordinary person.
IT HAS TO BE. How can there be any change when nothing enters in him? :laugh: Mr. Dixit even dozes, becomes sometimes angry also - it is already put here in the forum, and perhaps PBKs may still believe either God is doing all these, or will take responsibility for all of them. (As already said- due to the wrong sanskaar already developed, PBKs may feel great difficulty to realize traps of Mr. Dixit). Let them assume so.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 24 Mar 2016

We were talking about bondages, program, we were discussing like discussing some points of knowledge, but this is how you reply.
But, for Mr. Dixit- "he moves gali2, and even goes to jail. He even dozes while giving drushti.
Extra ordinary knowledge? :laugh: - Many are already available in the forum. Countless errors and blunders. put in this very topic.
Certainly, the knowledge makes a lot of sense to many, you should not think only from your own point of view.
BTW- If there is no extra ordinary logic, why does Mr. Dixit give clarification on Avyakt Murlis too?
It is said that when our intellect becomes unlimited we will see unlimited meaning even in the news. We can read knowledge in the newspaper. Baba can clarify the news of the newspaper too. There is no extraordinary knowledge there, but the clarification makes it extraordinary. The Avyakt Vanis are something we hold dear and narration of a very elevated soul. We are used to reading it when we were in the BK and it is something popular in the BK. And we also consider Brahma Baba to possess the qualities of a world mother and we respect both mother and father.
TOTAL FAILURE TO EXPLAIN. Deviating from the point The question asked was- Where Shiv would be AFTER leaving the Chariot? In the physical world or in Paramdham?
When not riding the bull, the Supreme Father does service through the children.
And as PBKs believe for later entrances- Shiv needs message, and as a point of light(which is inert in their view) nothing can be communicated to him, how can Shiv understand when to enter Mr. Dixit on a daily basis? "in PBK view"".
Shiv does not need any message so that to know when to enter. He comes on his own. How can we tell him when and whom to enter, how can he listen to us. In the Murli it is said that children should not give directions to Baba.
--- So, in the same way- what is wrong if we believe the same in DG- because she is dummy. Even if they(AVs) are word of just B Baba(in PBK view), why not consider them as that words of ShivBaba? Why should it make difference, when ShivBaba has taken full responsibility of words of B Baba? Is there any need to listen to Mr. dixit?
Yes, this is a good point. Baba has taken responsibility for whatever is said by Brahma Baba and he clarifies it and puts it right, but the narration of Brahma Baba goes along with the knowledge.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 24 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 190) PBKs using Murli points without understanding:-
but the clarification makes it extra-ordinary.
1)PBKs may simply say- clarification of Mr Dixit is extra-ordinary. But, in their own words, (at least you) have admitted as - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1860&p=51190#p51190 .

2)Have PBKs ever thought why ShivBaba takes responsibility for Brahma Baba and Mama? because they are the top-most souls, very next to God. Mr. Dixit just misuses this point to imply that same applies for himself. OK, anyhow, who is the second one for whom God takes responsibility? - Kamala Devi? Does God take responsibility for her too?
The Avyakt Vanis is something we hold dear and narration of a very elevated soul. We are used to reading it when we were in the BK and it is something popular in the BK. And we also consider Brahma Baba to possess the qualities of a world mother and we respect both mother and Father.
3) It is seen what respect PBKs give to Murli points. They just take in an isolated manner, and just act like machines, being remote controlled by Maya or Mr Dixit. So- can there be PRACTICALLY any respect?

----------------
Flaw No. 191) Mr. Dixit struggling to give replies to his own followers:-

4)Regarding the so called extra ordinary clarifications - of Mr. dixit- just tip of the iceberg seen here- viewtopic.php?f=2&t=632&p=47746&hilit=Gulzar#p47746
Mr Dixit c/o arjun wrote:
Disc.CD No.624, dated 07.09.08 at Nilanga
Part-4

Time: 22.18-25.08
Student: Baba, BapDada gives yaadpyaar (remembrance and love) at the end of the Avyakt Vani that is narrated through Dadi Gulzar; although the Father is not present there. There is only Dada [there]. So, why is it said BapDada?
Baba: They say BapDada; the one who gives the clarification of the Avyakt Vani which is narrated is Father Ram in the form of the teacher in front of the children. And Dada is the soul of Brahma.
Student: But the Father is not at all present there, is He? The clarification is not at all given there.
Baba: That Father, the Point Father does not do anything alone. When is that Point Father also called a Father? (Student: Corporeal.) When He is present in the corporeal form He is called a Father. This is why the soul of Ram [plays] the part of a Father although the soul of Shiva plays a part in him. Both are the unlimited Fathers. And the soul of Krishna [plays] the part of a child, the part of the one with a child like intellect; this is why they say BapDada. And Dada’s soul remembers the Father. Although there are two forms of the Father. One is incorporeal and the other is corporeal. So, when Brahma is in Dadi Gulzar, does he have more influence of the basic knowledge or does he remember the Advanced Knowledge? There is more influence of the basic knowledge. This is why he remembers the incorporeal One.
[ Does this ROUND-ABOUT answer have any relevance to the ACTUAL question? The answer given, is CLEARLY MALICIOUS, and creates MORE DOUBT & CONFUSION, and leaves one EVEN MORE PERPLEXED & CONFOUNDED than BEFORE! ]
Student: I had had spoken to a Sister of a center. She said BapDada comes; she clarified that both [Bap and Dada] come here; that is why they say BapDada.
Baba: If both come, does the incorporeal Father come or does the combination of the corporeal as well as the incorporeal come? Ask them. Who comes? They will say the incorporeal Point of light Shiva comes. (Student: Yes.) They will certainly say this, will they not? So, does the Point of light Shiva have a subtle body? (Student: No.) Then, the one in whom a subtle body enters does not remember anything. If any subtle bodied soul enters, it will suppress the soul of the one whom it enters. He forgets everything. Dadi Gulzar also forgets everything. And will the Point of light Shiva enter a sinful one or a pure virgin? (Student: In a sinful one.) He enters a sinful one. You have lots of points. Give them quick succession [of points] and make them quiet. :D -
[the question asked was about why word BapDada is used in DG, even when PBKs believe Bap is not present in her. But, Mr Dixit is CLEARLY DODGING the question, by saying something else. He just only says- there cannot be Father/baap in DG, which was ALREADY SAID by the student at the very first instant itself*]
* - BTW- the virgin concept of PBKs make them fall into their own trap - already given here - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50752&hilit=virgin#p50752 - I am just pointing the link, so that you need not deviate from the point and say something else like Mr Dixit here.
sita wrote:When not riding the bull, the Supreme Father does service through the children.
5a)So, do you mean to say- Shiv will always be present in one or other corporeal body for all the 24 hours, and 365 days after 1969?

5b)And- what is the percentage of the duration ShivBaba stays in Mr Dixit when compared to other children? I am not expecting exactly, but just an approximate estimation in percentage.
You may give God's duration of stay in a)Mr Dixit, and in b)other 4 Brahmas, and in c) other children as well.

5c)Does Shiv enter Kamala Devi even after 1998? If yes, what service he is doing there?

5d)And- no reply has come to the question- in whom God had been present from 1969 till 1976, since, ACCORDING to PBKs, He does not go back to Paramdham ? - refer to flaw No. 175 - see top of this page.

6)And- also would like to know what service Shiv does through others? Does he give knowledge too? or just gives drushti, something like that?
7)Again - Does Shiv enter only in PBK children or even Bk children as well (after 1976)?
Shiv does not need any message so that to know when to enter. He comes on his own.
8a) You have taken a U turn, when you could not reply. You had said- Shiv needs a message for later entrances.
8b) Now again here- who gives message to Shiv when he shifts from one body to another? [What I mean is- you had said- trance messengers can reach only Subtle Region, not to Paramdham to give message to Shiv- (as if) if Shiv would have been in PW(physical world) or SW(Subtle Region), the message could have been reached. Now- does any PBK give message to God Shiva to shift from one body and enter into another?
Yes, this is a good point. Baba has taken responsibility for whatever is said by Brahma Baba and he clarifies it and puts it right, but the narration of Brahma Baba goes along with The Knowledge.
9)Again half knowledge. Has any PBK ever thought why God would take responsibility of a person whom they call as HK, number one false Guru, Ravan, child intellect, one who creates eclipse, etc? Is not Mr Dixit taking just half and misusing the Murli point?

Anyhow- let them take as they want, and let them continue with their so called extra-ordinary clarifications.

= LESSON =

The 'clarifications' of Ravan or Maya, through the 'mukrar-rath' of Ravan, would DEFINITELY APPEAR to be 'extra-ordinary' to the INVERTED & PERVERTED INTELLECTS of the BLIND FOLLOWERS - THERE SHOULD BE NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS WHATSOEVER. So, the BLIND FOLLOWERS are DEFINITELY TELLING the 'TRUTH', in 'ABSOLUTE GOOD FAITH', when they consider the 'clarifications' to be 'extra-ordinary', since they INDEED APPEAR 'extra-ordinary' to their mind; and they would NATURALLY expect that such should be the case with ALL other embodied souls as well - at least for those souls who have been, or are associated with this Knowledge. HOWEVER, what they DO NOT, and CANNOT REAL-EYEs is that such 'clarifications' are PERTAINING SOLELY to the establishment of Ravan Rajya or APPARENT or FALSE 'RamRajya, and NOT to the establishment of ABSOLUTE or REAL RamRajya, which is the task of REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God though His 'mukrar-rath' of REAL Prajapita Brahma, BB or soul of DLR.
UNTIL concerned souls BEGIN to REAL-EYEs this ABSOLUTE & INVIOLABLE TRUTH, they would continue to GRAPPLE with each other in such VIGOROUS (often VICIOUS) ARGUMENTS and DEBATES - which may be CONSIDERED to be necessary to resolve the 'karmic' debts between concerned souls, since they are not in a position to resolve same through ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED Remembrance of REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God - AS YET!

SAT

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 25 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 192) How Mr. Dixit took title of Rudr on himself?

1)A Murli point says- "Shiv/ShivBaba means point. Rudr does not mean point". Definitely, it is a little bit difficult to understand at the very first instant itself.

2)Now- this was a wonderful opportunity for Mr. Dixit to propagate his false theory and HK hood and he claimed/implied that he himself is Rudr*. (even if hundreds of other Murli points clearly say "Shiv and Rudr are one and the same").

3)But, his failure is clearly visible here- Posts No. 107, 108 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... udr#p12392
--The same Murli points are here as well - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2602&p=51175#p51175


* 3)- This could be the reason why Mr Dixit dared to bifurcate even the two malas as separate, (and all these appear to be so called EXTRA-ORDINARY CLARIFICATIONS to his followers). [This blunder is already put as flaw No. 50 or here- viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2103&hilit=rosary ]

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 25 Mar 2016

1)PBKs may simply say- clarification of Mr Dixit is extra-ordinary. But, in their own words, (at least you) have admitted as - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1860&p=51190#p51190 .
Brother, I cannot give clarifications, because I am not ShivBaba. The points about LN as fools and as intelligent, I was not able to resolve it on my own. I study the advance knowledge and get clarifications there. I could definitely try to give my own clarifications, but it will be limited and a product of a vicious mind. But then you are always taking any point in opposite sense, so i have become hesitant. Indeed we don't post only in reply, but for others to read, but I don't know if anyone is at all interested in, and following this discussion.
2)Have PBKs ever thought why ShivBaba takes responsibility for Brahma Baba and Mama? because they are the top-most souls, very next to God. Mr. Dixit just misuses this point to imply that same applies for himself. OK, anyhow, who is the second one for whom God takes responsibility? - Kamala Devi? Does God take responsibility for her too?
I don't think he has taken responsibility about Mama that whatever comes out of her mouth we should consider it ShivBaba speaking. Please, support your claim that Shibaba takes responsibility about Mama with some arguments. For Mama it is said that even if Brahma Baba leaves, she will support the Yagya till the end. I don't have the impression that ShivBaba takes responsibility about any second person. I hear it from you know.
5a)So, do you mean to say- Shiv will always be present in one or other corporeal body for all the 24 hours, and 365 days after 1969?
5b)And- what is the percentage of the duration ShivBaba stays in Mr Dixit when compared to other children? I am not expecting exactly, but just an approximate estimation in percentage.
You may give God's duration of stay in a)Mr Dixit, and in b)other 4 Brahmas, and in c) other children as well.
5c)Does Shiv enter Kamala Devi even after 1998? If yes, what service he is doing there?
5a -yes - after 1936
5b - how can i know. When shiv comes and goes no one knows.
5c - ShivBaba enters children to do service, to give the power of speech, of drishti, of vibrations etc., but when he comes and goes no one knows. For the permanent Chariot it is accepted that it is always ShivBaba speaking, but for the rest we don't have any proof ShivBaba enters anyone else.
5d)And- no reply has come to the question- in whom God had been present from 1969 till 1976, since, ACCORDING to PBKs, He does not go back to Paramdham ? - refer to flaw No. 175 - see top of this page.
In the permanent Chariot.
8a) You have taken a U turn, when you could not reply. You had said- Shiv needs a message for later entrances.
8b) Now again here- who gives message to Shiv when he shifts from one body to another? [What I mean is- you had said- trance messengers can reach only Subtle Region, not to Paramdham to give message to Shiv- (as if) if Shiv would have been in PW(physical world) or SW(Subtle Region), the message could have been reached. Now- does any PBK give message to God Shiva to shift from one body and enter into another?
No. I have always said that Shiv never needs a message, he does not come on being invoked, he does not listen to our messages, he comes on his own, when it is his time. Where have I said that he needs message for later entrances. Please, show! You must have misunderstood something. Yes, you can say that when the child shows courage, the Father helps. If a child shows courage to speak the knowledge, the Father could enter to help by giving the power of speech, but there is no proof for that.
* 3)- This could be the reason why Mr Dixit dared to bifurcate even the two malas as separate**, (and all these appear to be so called EXTRA-ORDINARY CLARIFICATIONS to his followers). [This blunder is already put as flaw No. 50 or here- viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2103&hilit=rosary ]
Two different malas are indicated in the Murlis. When I find time I will represent quotes.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 25 Mar 2016

# Flaw No. 193) PBK concept of womb again fails, and give multiple dates with mutual contradictions

[quote=""sita""]5a -yes after 1936[/quote]
1)Now- according to Sita soul, Shiv was present in Mr. Dixit from 1969 itself. Not sure how many PBKs certify this.
----Their own Chariot had said- Shiv entered in Mr. Dixit ONLY in 1976 AFTER the maturity period of the womb - refer to flaw No. 170- or here- viewtopic.php?f=2&t=203&p=49083&hilit=womb#p49083.
---So, again contradiction here. But, that is 'perfect', according to 'sita' soul, and perhaps that too comes in extra-ordinary clarification.

2a) Now- they are breaking their own other rules more and more. According to PBKs, the proof* for coming of Shiv is to speak Murli. Did Mr. Dixit speak any Murli in 1969?

2b)Do PBKs believe God entered Mr Dixit only in Nov. 1969(when he came to BKWSU) or from Jan 1969 itself (as soon as DLR left his body)?

2c)Or as now, sita soul has pre-poned the date of entrance in Dixit, could God have been entering into all of their Brahmas from 1947 till 1969 as well? (whenever Shiv was not in body of DLR- as Shiv does not ride Chariot whole day)?
5b - how can i know. When Shiv comes and goes no one knows.
How did you give date even as 1969, when your own Guru had FIXED the date as 1976?
*2d)Anyhow, one more date for entrance of Shiv is given.
In future, we may get even more dates (with or without proof). Let us wait and see.
If a child shows courage to speak The Knowledge, the Father could enter to help by giving the power of speech, but there is not proof for that.
3)The question was- what is the service of Shiv doing all the 24 hours in corporeal bodies? ShivBaba will be in Mr. Dixit just for small period, when he gives knowledge, right? Now, how many words ShivBaba will speak through other children during other times? [the whole 24 hours, 365 days account is asked dear, please understand].
Or do you think Shiv in other corporeal bodies - while not giving knowledge, just sits idle? - khaanaa, peenaa, sona? = eating, drinking and sleeping? What is the output of service of Shiv in corporeal bodies? Are they not important? Are you not interested to understand role of Shiv in corporeal bodies?
-------------
I don't think he has taken responsibility about Mama that whatever comes out of her mouth we should consider it ShivBaba speaking. Please, support your claim that Shibaba takes responsibility about Mama with some arguments. For Mama it is said that even if Brahma Baba leaves she will support the Yagya till the end. I don't have the impression that ShivBaba takes responsibility about any second person. I hear it from you know.
4)It is implied-
----a)Baba says- follow Father, mother.
----b) Both jagadamba and Jagapita are creators. Both have right to say- become my children -see from mu point No. 04 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 7b5d#p4075
Two different malas are indicated in the Murlis. When I find time I will represent quotes.
5)Better put them in that topic of rosary.
No. I have always said that Shiv never needs a message, he does not come on being invoked, he does not listen to our messages, he comes on his own, when it is his time. Where have I said that he needs message for later entrances. Please, show! You must have misunderstood something.
6) Refer to your post just before flaw No. 187. You have written "TWICE". Many times you have done this and do not even know what you write. But, that is perfectly right because that is the real thinking of PBKs. They take Murli point only for others, not for self. So, naturally, they will get surprised when the mirror is turned towards them. For them the mirror is one sided and facing only one side. The Murli points which they use to point to others does not apply to them in the same way.

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