Flaws in PBK Philosophy

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sita
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 28 Aug 2016

What gave you the notion that we implied there are two Brahmas, in the above statement?
Because you say that the point that Baba does not enter subtle Brahma, when it was spoken referred to some other Brahma, who was there in the Subtle Region at that time.


= RESPONSE =

When REAL Prajapita Brahma is in his corporeal body, UNTIL 1969, the Subtle Region COMPLETE Brahma is ONLY a SYMBOLIC representation of the very same effort-maker REAL Prajapita Brahma, on this corporeal sphere. THERE IS ONLY ONE REAL PRAJAPITA BRAHMA (ALSO, OFTEN, simply addressed as Brahma, in short).

Kindly take time to review the earlier posts AT EASE - which have since been UPDATED, for BETTER CLARITY, and also in order to avoid further MISUNDERSTANDING. DO NOT JUMP TO WRONG CONCLUSIONS and DO NOT BE IN A HURRY TO RESPOND IMMEDIATELY. GIVE EACH POST AT LEAST 24 HOURS, TO THINK AND CHURN PROPERLY, BEFORE REPLYING. THIS WILL ALSO BENEFIT OTHER VIEWERS, TO KEEP COMFORTABLE TRACK OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN. THANKS.

sita
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 28 Aug 2016

OK, but does Baba refer to this symbolic representation when he explains that one Brahma is now and the other one is from the future. I would assume when it is said that he does not enter the subtle Brahma it means the one from the future.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 28 Aug 2016

sita wrote:OK, but does Baba refer to this symbolic representation when he explains that one Brahma is now and the other one is from the future. I would assume when it is said that he does not enter the subtle Brahma it means the one from the future.
Your argument has some validity, from YOUR POINT OF VIEW. So, the point in question can be interpreted or MISINTERPRETED in BOTH ways - may be the existing one (just symbolic, PRIOR 1969 - without the soul of Brahma Baba), or the future one (ACTUAL COMPLETE FORM, AFTER 1969 - with the soul of Brahma Baba) - DEPENDING on which IDEOLOGY or MIND-SET one is ACTUALLY ASSOCIATED with. These are some of the ISOLATED points, where Ravan or Maya STEPS in, and takes MAXIMUM ADVANTAGE of the situation to FOOL the PBKs COMPLETELY. So- how would a SINCERE SPIRITUAL ASPIRANT determine the TRUE REALITY? Obviously by referring to other related Murli points also, is it not? If we go through other Murli points, they logically DETERMINE that Shiva DOES NOT enter the INSTRUMENTAL SYMBOLIC FORM of Brahma (WITHOUT a soul), when he is playing His role as Brahma, through the IMPURE corporeal body of Brahma Baba or the soul of DLR, on this corporeal sphere. Numerous points have been already posted in various topics on this forum earlier. But PBKs have NO ABILITY to analyse them and comprehend them in the proper perspective, owing to limitations of their body-conscious intellects, and their particular roles within Drama.
When Shiva or God says that He DOES NOT enter the INSTRUMENTAL SYMBOLIC FORM of Brahma (without a soul), it DOES NOT ACTUALLY MEAN or IMPLY that He WOULD NOT utilize the COMPLETE ANGELIC FORM of Brahma Baba, when he becomes Avyakt, after 1969. And the ACTUAL FACT is, that He does utilize the COMPLETE ANGELIC FORM of Brahma Baba, when he becomes Avyakt, after 1969, to Meet and SUSTAIN the CONCERNED Righteous Children, who have PRACTICAL FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE of such a Meeting. Several AVs CLEARLY DETERMINE, particularly the VERY FIRST AV of 1969, and the AVs spoken every year on the day of 'ShivRatri', that Shiva is speaking to the Children DIRECTLY, who come to Meet Him at Mt Abu/Abu Road. It is NOT THE FAULT of God if the unrighteous children VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to TOTALLY disregard His Pure Versions, under the TREACHEROUS SPELL of Ravan or Maya. If any sincere spiritual aspirant is REALLY interested in getting out of this POWERFUL SPELL of Ravan or Maya, such aspirant should make CONCERTED EFFORTS to sincerely COMPREHEND the Pure Versions of God being HIGHLIGHTED CONTINUOUSLY on this forum.

I had supplied/given list of Murli points- in the other topic- for which you had replied- "IT IS OUT OF MY CAPACITY". - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1860&p=51181&hilit=capacity#p51181
If it is out of your capacity, then why and how can you claim that your bodily Guru, (MASQUERADING as 'ShivBaba'), is giving you clarifications for the Murli points, and you are more advanced than BKs?

sita
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 28 Aug 2016

If you agree that it refers to the Brahma in future, does it seem logical to you that Baba would say that I don't enter him, but then he would make an exception and enter him. Why would he say that he does not enter then, what is the meaning and purpose of that. Baba is speaking about some confusion. He is addressing the confusion that the children have that he enters the Subtle Brahma and clearly says that he does not.
If it is out of your capacity, then why and how can you claim that your Guru is giving you clarifications for the Murli points and you are more advanced than BKs?
It is in my capacity now. Please, bring the point.


= RESPONSE =

Kindly review the updated earlier post above, for better understanding.
It is NOT THE FAULT of God if the unrighteous children VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to TOTALLY disregard His Pure Versions, under the TREACHEROUS SPELL of Ravan or Maya. If any sincere spiritual aspirant is REALLY interested in getting out of this POWERFUL SPELL of Ravan or Maya, such aspirant should make CONCERTED EFFORTS to sincerely COMPREHEND the Pure Versions of God being HIGHLIGHTED CONTINUOUSLY on this forum.
If it is in your capacity, (WHICH IS EVIDENTLY NOT), you should address EACH of the points being continuously highlighted and documented on this forum, which go TOTALLY AGAINST the CORE ideology of your bodily guru -Virendra Dev Dixit, AIVV and the PBKs. When your bodily guru himself is SLYLY DODGING such points, EITHER IGNORANTLY or DELIBERATELY, what chance can ANY of his BLIND followers, be ever expected to have, in the situation, and under the circumstances???

sita
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 29 Aug 2016

Baba has explained why he does not enter the subtle one, because he is pure angel and he does not enter pure angels, it is said in the Murli.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 29 Aug 2016

# Flaw No. 322 ) A PBK now attempts again to give reply:-
sita wrote:It is in my capacity now. Please, bring the point.
sita wrote:If you agree that it refers to the Brahma in future, does it seem logical to you that Baba would say that I don't enter him, but then he would make an exception and enter him. Why would he say that he does not enter then, what is the meaning and purpose of that. Baba is speaking about some confusion. He is addressing the confusion that the children have that he enters the Subtle Brahma and clearly says that he does not.
1) I had not agreed dear. You only assumed. I said- we could consider both the cases.
So- I had considered both the possibilities, and then after referring to the Murli points- I found that it is applicable to the earlier period ONLY. Because in Bhakti, people believe Prajapita resides in Subtle Region*

2)SM 26-10-83(1):- ShivBaba samjhaate hain bachchon ko is Brahma ke rath dwara. ... Mujhe apna rath nahin. Mujhe rath toh zaroor chaahiye. Jaise tum harek atma ko apna2 rath hai na. BVS ko bhi sookshm sharir hai na. ...............To Baap kahte hain main aavoon toh kaise? Kiske sharir may avoon? Pahley2 toh mujhe Prajapita chaahiye. SOOKSHMVATANVAASI PRAJAPITA KO YAHAAN KAISE LE AA SAKTAA? VAH TOH FARISTA HAI NA. UNKO PATIT DUNIYAA MAY LE AAVOON, YE TOH DOSH HO JAAYE. KAHENGE MAINEY KYAA GUNAAH KIYAA. Baap samjhaate hain badi ramaneek baatein hain. Samjhegaa vo hi jo baap kaa banaa hogaa. Ghadi2 baap ko yad kartaa rahega. Baap kahte hain main aataa hun, jab dharti par paap badh jaataa hai. Kaliyug may manushy kitney paap karte hain. Bhrashthaachaar hai. Bandar misal ek do ko daraate rahte hain. Baath math poocho. Toh bap poochte hain, bachche, bataavo- main aavoon, toh kis tan may aavoon. MUJHE CHAAHIYE BHI VRUDDH ANUBHAVI RATH. YAH JO MAINE RATH LIYAA HAI, BAROBAR INKAY BAHUT GURU KIYE HUYE HAIN. SHAASTR AADI PADHAA HUVAA HAI. Yah bhi likhaa hai na, bahut padhaa huvaa thaa. Arjun ki baath nahin. Mujhe arjun ka, va Krishn ka rath thode hi chaahiye. Mujhe toh chaahiye brahma ka rath. Unko hi Prajapita kahenge. Krishn ko toh Prajapita nahin kahenge. Manushyon ki buddhi may kitni moorkhataa bhari huyi hai. Kuch bhi samajhte nahin. Baap ko toh brahma ka hi rath chaahiye jis_sey braahmanon ki prajaa rache. Braahmanon ka hai sarvottam kul. Virat roop dikhaate hain na. D, K, V, S. baaki braahman kahaan gaye? Yah kisko bhi pataa nahin. Oonch te oonch hai braahmanon ki choti. -27- [Prajapita]-vimp

=................ In whose body should I come? First I need Prajapita. How can I bring the subtle word resident Prajapita here? He is angel, is it not? If I bring him in the impure world, it would be faulty. He will complain what wrong/sin have I done (to bring me in this impure world)? These are 'ramaneek' (to be churned on a SUBTLE LEVEL) matters…....

You may address the following in the above Murli point -
3) For what period- does the "FIRST" refer to?
4)) Why does Baba say- "Subtle Region dweller" Prajapita? (= gives title Prajapita to subtle Brahma)?
5) Why does Baba say Subtle Region Prajapita as pure angel? Who is he and from when does this apply? [PBKs believe/use such ALL Murli points- related to Subtle Region dweller for DLR, AFTER 1969).
6) Why does Baba say bringing him below would be a sin? [BKs believe DLR comes below, even PBKs believe so. ]- but they started believing so only after 1969/1976. So- for which period does this apply?
7) PBKs believe Subtle Region Brahma is impure. How?
8) Baba also says here- How can I bring him(subtle Brahma) here - how do you interpret this?- when you yourself believe subtle Brahma resides in THIS world? **

*8) SM 10-11-76(1):- PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KO MANUSHY SAMAJHTHAY HAIN SOOKSHMAVATAN MAY HAIN. Ab sookshmvatan may praja toh ho na sakey. Srushti rachtey hain Brahma mukh kamal se, toh zaroor is srushti par hogaa na. -14, 200 [Prajapita]
= People believe that Prajapita Brahma resides in Subtle Region. Now- in Subtle Region- praja/citizens cannot be created. Citizens would be in this corporeal world.

*9) SM 5-8-76(2):- MANUSHYON KO ITNAA GYAAN HAI NAHEEN. SIRF KAHTE HAIN B, V, S SOOKSHMVATAN MAY HAIN. BAAKI UNHON KE OCCUPATION KA PATAA NAHEEN. -92 [Prajapita, Subtle Region]
= People do not have enough knowledge. They just say B,V, S reside in Subtle Region. They do not know their occupation.

** 10) Even if PBKs interpret this as Golden Aged angels- it will not fit. Because no BK/PBK believes so. Then there is no question of 'dosh'/sin here.
Moreover, PBKs believe - ALL the Murli points are applicable for Conf Age.

11) SM 8-11-76(2):- Sookshmvatan may jo Brahma dikhaate hain, vah toh paavan hai. Sookshmvatan may Prajapita toh ho nahin saktaa. Baap samjhaate hain yah vyakt hai, yah jhaad may bhi pichaadi may khadaa hai. Yahaan bachchon sahit Yoga may baithay hain pavitr faristaa ban_ne liye. TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY BHI DIKHAANAA PADEY. YAHAAN BHI PRAJAPITA BRAHMA ZAROOR CHAAHIYE. Vah Avyakt, yah vyakt. Tum bhi faristaa ban_ne liye aaye ho na. Ismey hee manushy moonjhte hain. Kyonki yah hai bilkul nayaa gyaan. -11- [Prajapita, BHI]

= The Brahma shown in Subtle Region is pure. PPB cannot be in Subtle Region. Father explains- THIS is vyakt (corporeal), he is standing at the end/bottom in the (picture of) tree. He is seated with the children doing Yoga to become angel/farishta. So- (PPB in sublte form) should also be shown in Subtle Region. Here also PPB is definitely necessary. This is vyakt. That is Avyakt. You also have come to become farista, is it not? In this point only people get confused. Because this is totally new knowledge.

11)Why does Baba say- Prajapita Brahma should be shown at both the places?

12) SM 13-08-72(2):- BVS sookshmvatanvasi devataayein hain. Prajapita Brahma to yahaan hai. Sookshmvatan may jab jaayenge to devtaa ban jaayenge. Pahle toh manushy tan may hoga na. Yah achchee reeti samjhaanaa hai. Dhaarna badee achchee chaahiye. [=SM 22-7-82(2) ]
= ... First he(PPB) would be in a human body ...

Why does Baba say/imply- first only he would be in a human body?

13) SM 24-9-73(3):- Sthaapnaa karnevaalaa hai Parampita Paramatma- IS BRAHMA DWARA. Yah bhi Baba ne samjhaayaa hai sookshmvatanvaasi ko Prajapita nahin kahenge. Vahaan Praja hoti nahin. Toh zaroor Prajapita Brahma yahaan hoga. Vah hee phir Avyakt sampoorn banega. Vah toh hai Avyakt. Zaroor vyakt bhi chaahiye jo phir Avyakt hona hai. Donon abhi dikhaayi padte hain. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA YAHAAN BHI HAI TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY BHI HAI. Prajapita toh zaroor yahaan chaahiye. Zaroor Prajapita Brahma ke bachche bhi yahaan hee hain. Tum sabko kah sakte ho Prajapita jo vyakt hai vahee phir Avyakt hona chahiye. = SM 14-9-83(3)
= The one who creates is Supreme Godfather-through THIS Brahma. Baba has also explained that the subtle Brahma cannot be called as Prajapita. There is no praja(citizen) there. So definitely Prajapita would be here. He only will then become Avyakt. That is Avyakt(subtle). Definitely vyakt(corporeal) is also needed who will become Avyakt. Both are seen now. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA IS HERE AS WELL AS IN Subtle Region. Prajapita should be here. Definitely Prajapita Brahma’s children also would be here. You can tell all that the Prajapita who is corporeal himself will/should then become subtle. [VVIMP][118]

Why does Baba say- Prajapita Brahma is here AS WELL AS in Subtle Region?

14)SM 28-6-81(2):- PRAJAPITA BRAHMA bhi gaya huva hai. Parampita Paramatma Brahma dwara manushy srushti rachte hain. Isliye Brahma ko Prajapita kahte hain. Parantu kaise kab rachte hain yah nahin jante. Kyaa shuru may manushy nahin hai jinko rachte? Bulate hee hain patitpavan aavoo. To jab manushy hote hain tab to Baap aate hain. Duniya ko badalna hai.
= Prajapita Brahma is also praised. SFSS creates humans through PPB. Hence Brahma is called as Prajapita. But, how/when he does, people do not know. Are not humans present in the beginning, who have to be created?*** They call- O Purifier, come. So, Father comes when there are humans. The world has to be transformed (NOT PHYSICALLY CREATED).

*** - To whom is Baba asking above - the underlined sentence?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 29 Aug 2016

Continuation:-

15) SM 14-7-81(3):- Shiv jayanti bhi manate hain. Parantu unki Jayanti kaise hai, yah nahin jaante. Baap hee khud aakar samjhate hain MAIN SAADHAARAN BOODHE TAN MAY PRAVESH KARTA HUN. Nahin to Brahma aayegaa kahaan se? PATIT TAN HEE CHAAHIYE. Sookshmvatanvaasi Brahma may viraajman hokar to braahman nahin rachenge. Kahte hain main patit sharir, patit duniya may ataa hun. GAYA BHI HUVA HAI BRAHMA DWARA STHAPNAA. Phir jinki sthaapnaa karte hain, jo yah Gyan pate hain, vah devta ban jate hain. MANUSHY BRAHMA KA CHITR DEKH_KAR MOONJH JATE HAIN. KAHTE HAIN YAH TO Dada KA CHITR HAI! PRAJAPITA BRAHMA to zaroor yahaan hoga. Sookshmvatan may kaise Praja rachenge? Prajapita ke bachche hazaaron BKK hain. Jhoot thode hee hoga. Hum ShivBaba dwara varsa paa rahe hain. Tum bachchon ko samjhaayaa hai VAH AVYKAT BRAHMA HAI. PRAJAPITA TO Sakar MAY CHAHIYE. YAH PATIT HEE SO PAVAN BANTE HAIN. TATWAM. ACHCHAA.

Who are manushy here and why does Baba raise the same thing- Subtle Region and say- tatwam?

16) SM 8-3-77(2):- Braahman dharmvaale manushy se tum so devtaa dharmvaale ban rahe ho. To zaroor Prajapita Brahma chaahiye. Krishn ko nahin kah sakte. Yah ultaaa bataa diyaa hai ki Krishn ko itnay raaniyaan, bachche they. Yah bhool hai. Vaastav may bachche hain Brahma ko na ki Krishn ko. Brahma so phir Krishn bante hain. BAS- IS EK JANM KI UTHAL PAATHAAL MAY MANUSHY MOONJHTE HAIN. Gita kaa bhagvaan Krishn ko kah Shiv ko udaa diyaa hai. Sabhi kahte hain Brahma ko teen(3) mukh they. Teen mukhvaalaa Brahma honaa chaahiye. Kitni moonjh huyi padi hai. Shiv rachaita ko gum kar diyaa hai. [95]

= ....Just because of utha-paathaal (great difference that the present birth brings), of this one birth, people get confused. ...

Who are people here- and what is the one birth here- and how it is uthal-paathaal?

17) SM 5-8-73(2):- Baba yah rath bhi bahut anubhavi liyaa hai. Thaa bhi yah javaaharat kaa vyaapaari. Yah bhi avinaashi gyaan ratnon kaa vyaapar hai. KALP2 ISMEY AAVOON, TAB TO KAARY KAROON. Brahma dwara braahman rachenge na, jaise Christ dwara Christian rache jaate hain. Raas miltee hai na. To mujhe aanaa pade Brahma ke rath may. UNKEY HEE JANM BAITH SAMJHAATAA HUN. PAHLAA JANM TO HAI SRIKRISHN KAA. UNKEY HEE BAHUT JANMON KE ANTH MAY MAIN AATAA HUN. YAH ACCURATE BATAATAA HUN. Koyi poochte hain. Bolo- Pahle to zaroor Brahma chahiye. Tab to un dwara braahman rache. Vyakt PRAJAPITA BRAHMA chahiye. Sookshmvatan may to Prajapita nahin hota hai. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA yahaan chahiye. Aur main aataa bhi hun bhaarat may, jabki ghor andhiyaaraa hota hai. – 138
[Raas:- one more point: There is Mary, here Mama]

[a) UNKEY HEE JANM BAITH SAMJHAATAA HUN.
[b) PAHLAA JANM TO HAI SRIKRISHN KAA. UNKEY HEE BAHUT JANMON KE ANTH MAY MAIN AATAA HUN. YAH ACCURATE BATAATAA HUN.] imp
(c) Koyi poochte hain.

Whom do these refer to?


18) SM 28-6-72(1):- Gaate bhi hain Parampita Paramatma Shivaaya namaha. Brahma ko nahin kahenge. INKO PRAJAPITA KAHA JATA. Devataayein sookshmvatan may hain. YAH KOYI KO PATA NAHIN KI PRAJAPITA SO PHIR JAAKAR PHARISTAA BANTA HAI. Sookshmvatanvaasi ban_na hai arthaath sookshm dehdhaari. -206

= No one knows that Prajapita then becomes farishta. To become Subtle Region dweller means to have subtle body.

Who all do not know, and what, and how?

19) SM 13-6-72(4):- Dikhklaate hain Vishnu ke naabhi se Brahma niklaa. Yah raaz thode hi koyi jaante hain. Brahma so hi Vishnu, Vishnu so hi brahma niklaa. Yahaan tum sab kuch nayaa sunte ho. Baba ka aanaa bhi naya hai. Yah kiskey bhi buddhi may nahin aataa. Shiv Jayanti manaate hain. Parantu usney kyaa aakar kiyaa? Patitpavan ek ko hi kahte hain. Ek ne hi Bharat may phir se avatar liyaa hai. Ek hi vaar lete hain aur knowledge dete hain braahmanon ko. Braahman na baney to devtaa ban na sakey. Brahma ka bachchaa baney tab Baap se varsaa leve. BRAHMA KE AAGE PRAJAPITA AKSHAR ZAROOR DAALNAA CHAAHIYE. Phir koyi ka prashn nahin uthegaa. SAMJHAANAA AISE CHAHIYE JO BILKUL MOONJHE NAHIN. Braahmanon kaa kaam hai sachchi Gita sunana. To pavitr zaroor rahna padey. – 188-

= ... Put the word Prajapita in front of Brahma. Then no question can rise....

* - What is the question/doubt here, and how the word 'Prajapita' would stop someone raising doubts?

20) SM 12-12-77(2):- ShivBaba samjhaate rahte hain. Kab koyi shaastr nahin uthaayaa jaataa. Baba sunaa rahe hain. Yah bhi kahte hai main sun raha hun. Baba nahin hai toh yah bhi sunaate hain. ISMEY BABA HAI. ISLIYE BRAHMA KAA NAAM ITNAA NAHIN HAI. Ajmer may ek mandir banaaya hai. Parantu kuch samajhte nahin. Krishn ko Murli dee hai, Saraswati ko Benjo diyaa hai. Godess of Knowledge Saraswati ko kahte hain. GOD OF KNOWLEDGE BRAHMA KE BADLEY PHIR KRISHN KO KAH DIYAA HAI. Moonhj gaye hain. Baap baith samjhaate hain Trimurti may Krishn toh hai nahin. Bhal karke hain, parantu gupt. RK hee phir LN bante hain. Yah bhi kisko pataa nahin hai. -152-
[SP, rath, Prajapita, gyaan]

= ........In this, there is Baba (ShivBaba). Hence there is no much name of Brahma. There is one temple at Ajmer. .... To krishn, they have given Murli, and the banjo/veena (like guitar) to Saraswati. They say Swaraswati as Goddess of Knowledge. God of Knowledge instead of Brahma , is shown as Krishna. They have got confused. ......

Who have shown God of knowledge as Krishna instead of Brahma?

21) SM 6-9-77(1):- Gaayaa bhi jata hai brahma ke mukh kamal se braahman nikley. Toh zaroor adopted huye honge. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA bhi zaroor vyakt hona chahiye. Yah bhi samajhte ho. YAH KOYI NAHIN JAANTE KI PRAJAPITA BRAHMA PAHLEY PATIT THAA, PHIR PAVAN BANTE HAIN. Tum Brahman bann, phir devi devtaa ban_ne liye purushaarth karte ho. LN ke raajy ko swarg kaha jata hai. -

= ....No one knows that- PPB first would be impure, then become pure. ...

Who are those who do not know this?

22) SM 13-7-82(3):- Parmatma Baap sunate hain Brahma mukh dwara. BRAHMA DWARA STHAAPNAA, TO ZAROOR BRAHMA MANUSHY HEE HOGAA AUR BOODHAA BHI HOGAA. Brahma ko humeshaa badaa dikhaate hain. Krishn ko chota samajhte hain. Brahma ko kab chota bachchaa nahin kahenge. Unkaa chotaa roop banaate hee nahin. Jaise LN ka chotaa roop nahin dikhaate vaise Brahma ka bhi nahin dikhaate hain. Baap khud kahte hain main vruddh tan may aataa hun. -104- [rath, prajapita]

= ....Brahma would be human and definitely old male (Boodha)...

Baba has said boodhaa- but PBKs believe first/main Brahma is boodhee (female). Even Mr Dixit WAS not old when he RETURNED???

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 29 Aug 2016

23) SM 22-7-82(2):- Yah Brahma bhi to shaastr bahut padhaa huvaa hai. Inko bhi Baap kaahte hain tum apney janmon ko nahin jaante ho. Main tumhaarey bahut janmon ke anth ke janm may pravesh kartaa hun. Krishn to hai hee Satyug ka pahlaa janm. Swayamvar baad phir Narayan ban jaate hain. TOH JO SRI Narayan THAA VAH BAHUT JANMON KE ANTH MAY AB SAADHAARAN HAI. Phir zaroor unkey hee tan may aanaa padey. KAYI KAHTE HAIN BHAGAVAAN PATIT DUNIYAA MAY KAISE AAYENGE? NA SAMAJHNE KAARAN KRISHN KA NAAM THOK DIYAA HAI, JO SABSEY PAAVAN HAI. Parantu Krishn ko sab bhagavaan maanenge nahin. Bhagavaan to hai hee niraakaar. Unkaa naam Shiv mash_hur hai. BVS sookshmvatanvasi devataa hain. Prajapita Brahma to yahaan hai. Sookshmvatan may to devtaayein hain. Pahle to manushy tan may hoga na. Yah achchee reeti samjhaanaa hai. Dhaarna badee achchee chaahiye. -118 [prajapita, Krishn, Murli cut] = SM 13-08-72(2).

= ... So, the one who had been Sri Narayan- he is now ordinary at the end (of the last) of his many births. Then definitely God will have to come ONLY in his (LAST) body. Some say- how can God come in impure world. Without understanding, they have inserted the name of Krishna who is the purest of ALL. ...

---Who are those who do not believe/understand that God can come in impure world?
---Baba says he comes in the body of Brahma, which is ordinary, when compared to his OWN body as first Narayan. But, PBKs believe otherwise???
---The Krishna whom Baba refers here (whom PBKs believe as DLR)- baba says- is the purest of ALL. But- PBKs neither believe DLR would be number one, NOR believe he can be Conf Age Krishna. So, how does this Murli point fit?


24) SM 10-6-82(2):- Sachchaa preetham ek hai. Ek ka hee naam lete hain. Tum sab samajhte ho humko preetham milaa huvaa hai. Abhi is Madhuban may saadhaaran Brahma ke tan may baithey hain. Tum BKKyaan ho. SABKO YAH SAMJHAAVO KI BRAHMAKUMAARIYON KE AAGE PRAJAPITA AKSHAR NA AANE SE BHI MOONJH HO JAATI HAI. PRAJAPITA KO TOH SABHI JAANTE HAIN. BRAHMA KO PHIR SOOKSHMVATANVAASI SAMAJH LETE HAIN. Tum Prajapita Brahma kahenge. Tum samjhenge Prajapita BKKyaan barobar hain. Isliye poochaa jaataa hai Prajapita Brahma se kyaa sambandh hai? Pita akshar to pahley hai hi. SHIV KO PARAMPITA PARMATMA KAHTE HAIN. AUR KOYI KA PARMATMA NAAM NAHIN HAI. Ab tum jaan gaye ho ki ek hai paarlowkik parampita doosra hai Prajapita Brahma. Lowkik Baap ko toh jaante hi hai. TUMNEY TEEN PITAAVON KO AB SAMJHAA HAI AUR KOYI DUNIYAA MAY NAHIN JAANTEY. -54 [Prajapita, ShivBaba]

= ...ALL KNOW ABOUT PRAJAPITA BRAHMA. BUT REGARDING BRAHMA, THEY BELIEVE HE IS IN Subtle Region. ...

Who are ALL here? And- and who do not fall under all? - "in PBK view"?

[BK view- All (the religions) know/believe corporeal/Prajapita Brahma in one or other way- like Adam, Aadam, Mahaaveer, Prajapita, Daksh, etc.
---But, in Hinduism, Brahma is shown/believed above in Subtle Region (they show it as Brahma created this world sitting above- ). Of course, in Hinduism the word Prajappita and Daksh are famous, but they do not believe creation occurred through them. They believe Brahma created from sitting above.
So- the importance of Chariot, incarnation of God and adoption - all have got into darkness.

25) SM 12-2-83(1):- Sabhi ko dukh ki duniyaa se chudaate hain. Isliye unko liberator kahte hain. Us niraakaar ko aane liye SHARIR CHAAHIYE. Toh nayi duniya ko rachne ke liye PRAJAPITA BHI CHAHIYE. Rachnaa yahaan rachni hai. Toh BRAHMA BHI YAHAAN KA MANUSHY CHAAHIYE. SOOKHSM_VATAN SE UTAR NEECHE TOH NAHIN AAYEGAA. Kahte bhi hain abhi brahma ki raath hai. -58 [bhi, Prajapita]

= ....That incorporeal needs a body. So, to create new world, there is need of Prajapita. Creation is done here. So, Brahma should also be a human from this world only. From Subtle Region, he will not descend. They also say- now it is night of Brahma.

To whom and why is Baba saying- Brahma cannot descend from Subtle Region?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 29 Aug 2016

In whose body should I come? First I need Prajapita. How can I bring the subtle word resident Prajapita here? He is angel, is it not? If I bring him in the impure world, it would be faulty. He will complain what wrong/sin have I done (to bring me in this impure world)? These are ramaneek matters ...
It implies that Brahma Baba has not become pure, otherwise he would not be able to come in the impure world.
= People believe that Prajapita Brahma resides in Subtle Region. Now- in Subtle Region- praja/citizens cannot be created. Citizens would be in this corporeal world.
If there is no corporal form, that this form is Prajapita, Brahmins cannot be there, spiritual family cannot be there without a corporeal Father, because brahmins are corporeal. It does not fit if brahmins are corporeal, but their Father is subtle.
= People do not have enough knowledge. They just say B,V, S reside in Subtle Region. They do not know their occupation.
Because their occupation is there in this world. If we don’t know the corporeal form – we don’t know their occupation.
To whom and why is Baba saying- Brahma cannot descend from Subtle Region?
If Subtle Region refer to subtle stage of thinking, if we detach from this world with our mind, from the worldly matters, then we don't touch this world. This is the angel - one who does not have connection with this world. We also have this saying when one is in high state of mind, in high spirit, that his feet (feet like mind) do not touch the ground (the mud, the body made of mud, the body-consciousness).

For us it is said that we have to practice going into subtle and incorporeal stages in one second and we do that whilst we are in our body. So we can become subtle and then corporeal. It is possible that we could also reach incorporeal stage for some time. But there can be such a stage where our stage is irreversible. Our soul-conscious stage will last for min. 2500 years.

It is also said that on our way to Paramdham we pass through the Subtle Region. Moreover in one recent quote the Avyakt one was said like incorporeal.
Some people get confused over Brahma's topic. There aren’t two Brahmas. This sinful Brahma shall become pure. This (Brahma) is corporeal, that (Brahma) is incorporeal. The soul of this Brahma is here only. When he becomes unmanifest (i.e. leaves this body) his soul shall stay there. He becomes complete angel.
[Mu. 7-5-71 Pg-2]
It is also said that we will bring Paramdham to this world. So subtle and incorporeal stage is a stage of mind. When we achieve irreversible subtle stage we would become pure.


= RESPONSE =

Instead of WASTING your precious TIME here, going around in the VERY SAME CIRCLES, AGAIN and AGAIN, you are advised to continue with your SUPREME SPIRITUAL EFFORTS of 'bringing Paramdham down to this World, by developing your subtle and incorporeal stage of your mind, so that you can quickly become pure, by achieving an IRREVERSIBLE subtle/seed stage. This would PRACTICALLY help all those MILLIONS of souls who are being BOMBARDED by the Super-powers, on a daily basis, and who are being displaced from their homes and separated from their family members, with loss of limbs and life, and who are in a state of SEVERE AGONY & EXTREME SHOCK!

You may review the response to your earlier post, given within the post itself - see link below -
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=51751#p51751

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 02 Sep 2016

Let the readers judge the capacity of the PBK member in replying to the questions logically.
# Flaw No. 323) Regarding keeping photo of Brahma Baba:-

1) Usually in Sakar Murlis, Baba says- "Do not keep photo of B Baba. Do not even take photo of B baba".
This is said with the aim to prevent children getting over-attached to physical name and form of him.

But-
2) SM 2-5-77(1):- Abhi ShivBaba rachnaa rach rahe hain na. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KA BHI CHITR ALAG HONA CHAHIYE. Trimurti brahma kahte hain. Parantu uskaa koyi arth hee nahin. -12 [prajapita, PBKs]
= Now, ShivBaba is carrying out the process of creation. THERE IS NEED OF SEPARATE PHOTO OF PRAJAPITA BRAHMA. ...

3) For service activities- there is need to highlight the Chariot. So, separate photo of B baba has to be used. When we give knowledge to others, sometimes people immediately/spontaneously ask- "Who is your Guru", etc., and at that time, there is a DEFINITE need to show photo of the Chariot, as well - as a MATTER of INTRODUCTION ONLY.
But, without understanding this in the proper perspective, the so-called 'Gyani-tu-atmas', PBKs accuse BKWSU for keeping photo of B Baba.

4) Also- note that in Avyakt Murlis, Baba/BapDada has given full freedom either to remember just Dada/Brahma/Brother or Father/ShivBaba.
Because B baba has already become complete, and also- now he has NO PHYSICAL BODY. So no risk of getting caught in corporeal body. Refer Post No. 202. (Murli point No. 03)- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ahe#p15532

5) Usually PBKs while giving their knowledge to others, do not show photo of their head/Dixit. Even if someone asks, they reply- "till you attend bhatti, his photo would not be shown"- something like that. Funny, is it not?
But, even this resulted in spiritual suicide of PBKs, as they are doing exactly opposite of Srimath. Baba says- Keep separate photo of 'Prajapita'. But, PBKs CANNOT do this, as they have already wrongly accused BKs, and have been trapped in their own net.

More relevant points already put in flaw No. 275- viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=51627&hilit=dekhnaa#p51627
===

ALSO refer to link viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&start=750#p51696 and find RESPONSE to same below -

CLARIFICATIONS for the Pure Versions of God, which are being MISINTERPRETED, MISREPRESENTED & MISAPPROPRIATED by the Unrighteous children, under the TREACHEROUS indoctrination of the ‘MAHA-MURKH’, ‘mukar-rath’ of Ravan!

In the beginning, the role of Supreme Father Supreme Soul, REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God was not accurately revealed IMMEDIATELY, but dawned on the intellects of the spiritual aspirants, with the passage of time, in accordance with their spiritual efforts, number-wise. However, REAL Prajapita Brahma, Brahma Baba or soul of DLR, PRACTICALLY played the role of the ‘Alokik’ Father, as well as ‘Alokik’ Mother, towards the Brahmin Children, but since he was in a male body, the role of the ‘Alokik’ Mother was delegated to Om Radhe or Saraswati Mama, while he CONTINUED to play the role of the ‘Alokik’ Father, through his corporeal body, right from the VERY BEGINNING, until he achieved the COMPLETE ANGELIC STAGE in 1969! Thereafter he continues to play the role of the ‘Alokik’ Father, towards the Righteous Brahmin Children, through his angelic body, to date; along with his soul-mate or ‘yugal-dana’, Saraswati Mama, who continues to play the role of the ‘Alokik’ Mother, towards the Righteous Brahmin Children, through her angelic body, to date!

Krishna is called next to God. ... Then at the second number are Lakshmi-Narayan, the Masters of the World.” [Mu 8-1-75 Pg-2]

The Child Krishna of G A is MORE NEXT to God, WHEN he HIMSELF is a Child, owing to his HIGHER degree of purity as a Child, than when he grows up, and ascends the Throne as the VERY FIRST Narayan of G A, when the degree of purity marginally REDUCES - when he HIMSELF is THEN considered to be second number - as COMPARED to his OWN self, when he is NEXT to God, as a Child. Hence, the Child Krishna of G A is NEXT to God, and the VERY SAME Child Krishna, becomes SECOND number, when he ascends the Throne, as Narayan, owing to the DIFFERENCE in the DEGREE of purity in the two different stages of the VERY SAME SOUL – (i) when he is the VERY FIRST Prince of G A, and (ii) when he is the VERY FIRST Emperor, Narayan, of Golden Age!

Prajapita Brahma is very great, is not it? He is called next to God.” [Mu 20-11-76, Pg-2 / 27-11-78, Pg-6]

REAL Prajapita Brahma, Brahma Baba or soul of DLR, (who is the ONE & ONLY ‘mukrar-rath’ of REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God), being the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor in the Confluence Age, (having received the ‘tilak’ or anointment of HIGHEST self-sovereignty, the ‘taj’ or crown of HIGHEST World responsibility and the ‘dil-takt’ or HIGHEST Heart-Throne of God - DIRECTLY from God HIMSELF, in the Confluence Age, by virtue of which he then becomes the VERY FIRST Prince, Krishna, of G A), is NEXT to God (who then becomes the VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Emperor in G A, by virtue of having been the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor in the Confluence Age)!

Father has explained that Shankar does not have so much of a role to play. He is next to Shiva.” [Mu 8-3-76 Pg-2]

Shankar DOES NOT come to play any role on this corporeal sphere in a corporeal body of any embodied soul. He is considered next to Shiva, because he is simply instrumental to take the ‘blame’ for what is considered to be the ‘destruction’ of this world, in the negative sense, (which is ACTUALLY the TRANSFORMATION of this World, in the positive sense), so that such ‘blame’ may not be apportioned to Shiva, (who is universally acclaimed as the ‘World Benefactor’), but to Shankar, (who is regarded as the ‘World Destroyer’)!

Father and inheritance. Next to ShivBaba are these Lakshmi & Narayan. Next to Father is Krishna.” [Mu 6-1- 76 Pg-3]

Supreme Father Supreme Soul, REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God gives the spiritual inheritance to all souls.
NEXT to Supreme Father or REAL ShivBaba is the Child Krishna of G A, and the VERY FIRST PAIR of Lakshmi & Narayan of G A - the Child Krishna being MORE NEXT to God, WHEN he HIMSELF is a Child, owing to his HIGHER degree of purity as a Child, than when he grows up, and ascends the Throne as the VERY FIRST Narayan of G A!

At the end, while taking out the funeral procession, they say that the name of Ram is the only truth.” [Mu 28-8-73 Pg-1]

The name of the UNLIMITED, SPIRITUAL Ram, Supreme Father Supreme Soul, REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God is the ONLY ULTIMATE TRUTH! This DOES NOT refer to any embodied soul, (in the Purest, UNADULTERATED perspective), AT ALL!

These (i.e. Brahma-Saraswati) also know that we are going to become Lakshmi-Narayan. We are going to be Ram-Sita.” [Mu 25-5-72]

Brahma & Saraswati (souls of DLR & Om Radhe), who THEMSELVES are the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress in the Confluence Age, (having received the ‘tilak’ or anointment of HIGHEST self-sovereignty, the ‘taj’ or crown of HIGHEST World responsibility and the ‘dil-takt’ or HIGHEST Heart-Throne of God - DIRECTLY from God HIMSELF, in the Confluence Age), THEN become the VERY FIRST PAIR of Lakshmi-Narayan in G A, (VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor in G A, by virtue of having been the HIGHEST Spiritual World Empress & Emperor in the Confluence Age). The VERY SAME PAIR of SOULS, then ALSO hold the HIGHEST OFFICE of ‘Ram & Sita’ in the VERY BEGINNING of S A, by interchanging their relative positions.

In Satyug there was the rule of Lakshmi-Narayan. They only rule in Silver Age also.” [Mu 9-12-72]

In Satyug or G A, the VERY FIRST PAIR of Lakshmi-Narayan ruled, (VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor in G A, by virtue of having been the HIGHEST Spiritual World Empress & Emperor in the Confluence Age). The VERY SAME PAIR of SOULS, then ALSO hold the HIGHEST OFFICE of ‘Ram & Sita’ in the VERY BEGINNING of S A, by interchanging their relative positions.

There is a difference between becoming a World Emperor and an Emperor of Satyug also.” [Av 28-1-85 Pg-146]

Brahma & Saraswati (souls of DLR & Om Radhe), who THEMSELVES are the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress in the Confluence Age, (having received the ‘tilak’ or anointment of HIGHEST self-sovereignty, the ‘taj’ or crown of HIGHEST World responsibility and the ‘dil-takt’ or HIGHEST Heart-Throne of God - DIRECTLY from God HIMSELF, in the Confluence Age), THEN become the VERY FIRST PAIR of Lakshmi-Narayan in G A, (VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor in G A, by virtue of having been the HIGHEST Spiritual World Empress & Emperor in the Confluence Age).
This Version highlights the DIFFERENCE between the status of a World Sovereign in Confluence Age, (of the VERY SAME soul - which is HIGHER owing to having the AWARENESS of God), and the status of the a World Sovereign in G A (of EXACTLY the VERY SAME soul - which is considered to be LOWER owing to NOT having the AWARENESS of God); but it DEFINITELY DOES NOT suggest that the World Sovereign of Confluence Age is DIFFERENT from the World Soevereign of G A, as TREACHEROUSLY alleged by Ravan or Maya, through the ‘mukrar-rath’ of Ravan!

Now you souls become Masters of the World through this body, i.e. you become God-Goddess. Father (Shiva) is God-Father, but in India these Lakshmi-Narayan are called God-Goddess.” [Mu 14-12-76 Pg-1]

Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama (souls of DLR & Om Radhe) become the Masters of the World through their corporeal body, under the DIRECT TUTELAGE of God HIMSELF, in Confluence Age, and thus they become God & Goddess (Bhagwan-Bhagwati), or the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress in the Confluence Age ITSELF, by virtue of which they THEMSELVES then become the VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor or Lakshmi & Narayan, in G A. The INNOCENT/IGNORANT devotees of the outer world, who are NOT AWARE that Lakshmi & Narayan of G A achieve that status by virtue of having been the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress or God & Goddess (Bhagwan-Bhagwati) in Confluence Age, consider Lakshmi & Narayan of G A to be God & Goddess (Bhagwan-Bhagwati), which title is STRICTLY applicable to the VERY SAME pair of souls in Confluence Age, and NOT in G A. The ‘shooting’ of this DELUSIVE ‘INNOCENCE/IGNORANCE’ is carried out, in Confluence Age, by the Unrighteous children, who have been treacherously indoctrinated by Ravan or Maya, through the ‘mukrar-rath’ of Ravan, to DELUSIVELY believe that God & Goddess (Bhagwan-Bhagwati), or the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress of Confluence Age, represent DIFFERENT pair of souls, as compared to the VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor or Lakshmi & Narayan of G A!

Highest Father gives highest inheritance. They are Bhagvan-Bhagvati (God-Goddess). Then, at the second number are Lakshmi & Narayan, Masters of Satyug.” [Mu 8-1-75 Pg-2]

God gives the HIGHEST inheritance to Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama (souls of DLR & Om Radhe), who become the Masters of the World through their corporeal body, under the DIRECT TUTELAGE of God HIMSELF, in Confluence Age, and thus they become God & Goddess (Bhagwan-Bhagwati), or the HIGHEST Spiritual World Emperor & Empress in the Confluence Age ITSELF, by virtue of which they THEMSELVES then become the VERY FIRST Practical HIGHEST World Empress & World Emperor or Lakshmi & Narayan, in G A.
Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama (souls of DLR & Om Radhe) who are THEMSELVES considered to be HIGHEST or NUMBER ONE in Confluence Age, owing to having the AWARENESS of God, are THEN THEMSELVES considered to be LOWER or NUMBER TWO in G A, owing to NOT having the awareness of God there! Hence the HIGHEST SPIRITUAL World Emperor & Empress of Confluence Age, are NOT DIFFERENT from the HIGHEST PRACTICAL World Emperor & Empress of G A, they are EXACTLY the VERY SAME PAIR of souls - that of Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama.
These Versions have been CRAFTILY MANIPULATED/MISINTERPRETED/MISREPRESENTED/MISAPPROPRIATED by Ravan or Maya, through the ‘mukrar-rath’ of Ravan, to TREACHEROUSLY propagate that the HIGHEST SPIRITUAL World Emperor & Empress of Confluence Age, are DIFFERENT pair of souls from the HIGHEST PRACTICAL World Emperor & Empress of G A, to TRICK them into DELUSIVELY believing that the ‘mukrar-rath’ of Ravan & his consort is Lakshmi and Narayan of Confluence Age.

In 1976, certainly the Golden Age can be considred to have been established in some form. The COMBINED souls of Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama renounce the Iron Aged World in TOTALITY, and NO LONGER belong to this OLD World, becoming TOTALLY detached from it, and START belonging to the Worlds of Shantidham & Sukhdham, through their Divine INTELLECTS, having TOTALLY & COMPLETELY REAL-EYEsed their HIGHEST ADMINISTRATIVE authority, BOTH, in Confluence Age, AS WELL AS, in the very beginning of G A - AS WELL AS, in the very beginning of S A.

Thus Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama TRULY receive their inheritance of REAL Heaven DIRECTLY from God, here in Confluence Age ITSELF. Brahma Baba & Saraswati Mama receive the GLOBE of World Sovereignty of Heaven on the Palms of their INTELLECTS. Therefore, in 1976, the SPIRITUAL births of Lakshmi & Narayan took place, and Golden Age ACTUALLY COMMENCED for them, ALONG with ALL the OTHER Righteous Children, who ACTUALLY ACHIEVED similar stage of consciousness, while STILL being embodied in their current corporeal bodies - because they renounced the OLD World TOTALLY, having COMPLETELY destroyed the OLD world in their CORE ‘Sanskars’. But then it also takes time for things to become practical, so we have to wait for the PRACTICAL commencement of the Golden Age.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 02 Sep 2016

The picture of Brahma in the Trimurti for the sake of explanation is OK. To meditate on the picture of a destructible and already dead body is wrong. Baba has said that if we remember this Brahma we will become impure.


= RESPONSE =

To meditate on the picture of a destructible (and already dead) body is ONE HUNDRED PER CENT WRONG! NO SENSIBLE SOUL WOULD DO THAT, if one has understood even the very basics of Knowledge!
The VERY FACT that PBKs STILL CONSIDER that TRUE BKs meditate on the (inanimate) STATIC picture of a destructible (and already dead) body of Brahma Baba - WHILE they THEMSELVES CONTINUE to meditate on God INSIDE the (currently live) DYNAMIC ‘Picture’ of a destructible & perishable body (which is going to be DEAD in the near future) - PROVES, BEYOND DOUBT, that such PBKs have NEITHER understood the very basics of Knowledge, NOR are they ANYWHERE near to having the ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED Remembrance of REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God, to be able to incinerate their sins and become pure.

The (inanimate) STATIC picture of a destructible (and already dead) body of Brahma Baba is used as a TOOL ONLY, (NOT to remember the dead corporeal body, which has already disintegrated and merged with the mother elementsas STUPIDLY understood & ERRONEOUSLY considered by the BLIND PBKs), but to maintain the awareness of the virtues imbibed by Brahma Baba through such destructible body, so that the virtues within the soul of the spiritual aspirant (remembering through his own destructible body) would emerge, and would ENABLE the spiritual aspirant to maintain CONSTANT, ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED Remembrance of REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God ALONE - as was practiced and achieved by the soul of Brahma Baba, who himself reached the HIGHEST SPIRITUAL DESTINATION, among ALL embodied souls. Hence such picture is used SIMPLY as a CATALYST – as a MEANS ONLY, and not as the END!

The PBKs DO NOT have FAR-REACHING, SUBTLE INTELLECTS to readily comprehend that to remember God INSIDE a currently live, or a currently living corporeal body, is AS GOOD AS remembering or meditating on God INSIDE a (currently live), DYNAMIC ‘Picture’ of a destructible & perishable body, which is going to be DEAD (CEASE to EXIST in the CURRENT form, or be TRANSFORMED) in the near future! Even if it is considered that the VERY SAME IMPURE corporeal body would change into a PURE body, at a specific point of time in the future, the IMPURE existing corporeal structure would still be considered to be DEAD, at THAT SPECIFIC POINT OF TIME, to give way or to give new birth to a PURE corporeal structure or Pure body – mostly composed of the material elements, which constituted the original body! The SUBTLER significance of CHANGE or DEATH, of the PERISHABLE corporeal body, whether by the process of TOTAL DISINTEGRATION, or by the process of TOTAL TRANSFORMATION, is STILL VERY MUCH the SAME, but is EXTREMELY SUBTLE, for souls with GROSS intellects to appreciate or accept or grasp.

However, as per the following CLEAR Version of God, such occurrence, as highlighted above, and as DELUSIVELY claimed by the BLIND PBKs, DOES NOT OCCUR, since the corporeal father of Shri Krishna is STILL IMPURE, when Shri Krishna takes birth; and the VERY SAME corporeal body of the physical father of Shri Krishna is NOT TRANSFORMED, but he has to leave that impure body, and then take a pure body in the normal way. Since the corporeal father of Shri Krishna is STILL IMPURE, when Shri Krishna takes birth, it means that BOTH the soul AS WELL AS the corporeal body of the father of Shri Krishna would be IMPURE, since a PURE soul cannot EXIST in an IMPURE body, AT THAT TIME!

View link - viewtopic.php?f=40&p=51775#p51775
BKWSU SM, Revised 30.08.2016 wrote: कृष्ण का कितना नाम गाया जाता है। उनके बाप का नाम ही नहीं, उनका बाप कहाँ है। जरूर राजा का बच्चा होगा ना। वहाँ, बड़े राजा के घर में जन्म होता है। परन्तु वह पतित राजा होने के कारण उनका नाम थोड़ेही होगा। कृष्ण जब है तब थोड़े पतित भी रहते हैं। जब वह बिल्कुल खलास हो जाते हैं तब वह गद्दी पर बैठते हैं, अपना राज्य ले लेते हैं, तब ही उनका संवत शुरू होता है। लक्ष्मी-नारायण से संवत शुरू होता है।

The name of Krishna is praised so much. There is no mention of his father's name, where is his father? He (Krishna) would definitely be the son of a king. There, his birth takes place in the house of a great king. However, BECAUSE THAT KING IS IMPURE, he is not renowned. When Krishna is there, a few impure ones remain. When they (impure ones) completely leave, then he sits on the throne and claims his Kingdom, only after which his era begins. The era begins with Lakshmi & Narayan.
When PBKs use the word ‘Baba’, they are not able to DIFFERENTIATE between REAL ShivBaba, Shiva or God, and the Godly Form or ‘Ishwariya Rup’ of God, MASQUERADING as (APPARENT or FALSE) ‘ShivBaba’, through the ‘mukrar-rath’ of Ravan, being their bodily guru, -Virendra Dev Dixit!

mbbhat
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 03 Sep 2016

# Flaw No. 324) PBKs inadvertently imply- "One should remember impure Brahma as well as impure Prajapita!"
sita wrote:The picture of Brahma in the Trimurti for the sake of explanation is OK. To meditate on the picture of a destructible and already dead body is wrong. Baba has said that if we remember this Brahma we will become impure.
Just speaking lies and not addressing to the point.

1) The Murli point says- "You should have SEPARATE photo of Prajapita". Do PBKs keep it?
---BKs keep it. So, BKs HAVE FOLLOWED THIS SRIMATH, BUT PBKs HAVE FAILED TO FOLLOW THIS Shrimat!
PBKs have not only failed to follow this srimath, but also accuse others wrongly. SO, IT IS AS GOOD AS PBKs HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE KNOWLEDGE/SRIMATH AT ALL! THAT IS- THEIR FOUNDATION OR ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE SRIMATH ITSELF IS WRONG/ZERO. Then what would be their ability to give clarifications to others?

2) Moreover, Baba has also said- you should remember Brahma

SM 5-3-09(1):- PPB ke bachche hum braahman hain. Yah bahuton ko bhool jata hai. Jabki tum Baap ko Yaad karte ho to Brahma ko bhi Yaad karnaa pade. Hum braahman kul ke hai. Yah bhi nasha chadhe. Bhool jaate hain to yah nasha nahin chadhtaa ki hum braahman kul ke hain, phir devtaa kul ke banenge. [vimp]

= We are children of Prajapita Brahma (and hence) Brahmins. Many forget this. Since you remember Father (Shiv), you would also have to remember Brahma. (Because) we belong to braamhin clan. This intoxication also should rise. When you forget this- we belong to braahmin clan and then we will belong to deity clan - this intoxication does not rise/present.

3)So, in what context Baba has said is to be understood. It means one should not get over-attached to B baba. But, Mr. Dixit just takes half of the Murli point and twisted it, as clearly seen.
---So, we can remember even impure body of Brahma Baba. But, Baba has warned the children that by forgetting ShivBaba or the aim and object, and just remembering Brahma would be wrong.
if we remember this Brahma we will become impure
4)As said above- PBKs can just use tail of an elephant/Murli-point, twist it and show it.
Baba has said this not only for Brahma/Chariot, but also for any impure body. But, PBKs give Srimath to remember the impure body of Mr. Dixit.

4) Moreover- PBKs always like to hijack words of ShivBaba. Even here, the word - "impure" in the pure version of ShivBaba has been replaced by "dead" by the ABOVE pbk.

5) PBKs have used the words- indestructible here. Is body of Mr. Dixit indestructible? Do they believe he is never going to die? Even after 150 yrs, his body will get perished, is it not?

6) And- most of the BKs, remember subtle/light body of Brahma Baba -at present. So, PBKs have no room to complain. But, according to their role in drama, they are bound to misunderstand and misuse Murli points.

7) BTW- IT IS PBKs WHO ARE CAUGHT IN THEIR OWN TRAP. BKs are not allergic to remember Brahma, as already said above. At present, most of the BKs at present remember pure Brahma. But-

8) PBKs believe their Prajapita is also at present impure, and subtle Brahma riding on him is also impure, and a 'ghost'. And- in the word- "BapDada" - both if these human personalities are included.
Now- when the Murli point says- "always remember BapDada"- PBKs inadvertently imply- one should remember not only impure Prajapita, but also an impure Brahma/ghost! :laugh:

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 03 Sep 2016

We believe that ShivBaba has come to prepare living pictures, that by keeping them in the pocket of our intellect we are able to show them to others as well. Baba has said about remembering Brahma, because remembrance of ShivBaba is impossible without Brahma. By remembering the living picture we develop our character.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 03 Sep 2016

We believe** that ShivBaba has come to prepare living pictures, that by keeping them in the pocket of our intellect we are able show them to others as well. Baba has said about remembering Brahma, because remembrance of ShivBaba is impossible without Brahma. By remembering the living picture we develop our character.
PBKs remember living, non-living*, as well as fictitious characters, and much more!
In fact, they are MORE DEPENDENT on non-living - 'DEAD' Sevakram, and biography of the other two 'DEAD' sisters, whom they believe LOST FAITH, FAILED and entered into stomach of python. The very BASIC foundation of PBKs itself is BASED on 'DEAD' and fictitious people, is it not?

*- DEAD, as well as GHOSTS - "in their own view" .

**- So, when PBKs fail to explain logically the Murli points which they use, and are asked to reply on other related Murlis points- they just stick to the saying- "we believe", "we believe" - which once again CLEARLY proves that their DELUSIVE CLAIMS are just IMAGINARY beliefs, like BLIND faith of Ravan Rajya - NOTHING MORE THAN THAT!

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 04 Sep 2016

# Flaw No. 325) By murdering Subtle Region, PBKs murdered their own Trimurti:-

Since PBk 'ShivBaba' has absolutely no spiritual power to experience subtle stage or incorporeal stage, they murdered both Paramdham and Subtle Region. In their view- Subtle Region does not exist. But-

1)SM 15-1-76(1):- Oonch te oonch hai bhagavaan. Phir sookshmvatanvaasi BVS kah dete hain. VO KOYI HAI NAHIN. Baap inkaa bhi arth samjhate hain, yah sirf saakshaatkaar hota hai. Sookshmvatan beech kaa hai na jahaan sharir nahin ho sakte. Sookshm sharir sirf divvy drushti se dekhaa jaataa hai. Brahma toh hai safed vastradhaari.

= Highest of High is God. Next, it is said for Subtle Region residents BVS. (But) THEY DO NOT EXIST. Father explains even the meaning of this, just vision takes palce. Subtle Region is the middle level where there is no (physical) body. The Subtle body can be seen only through 'divvy drushti' (divine vision). Brahma is (actually) in white dress (in a corporeal body, in this corporeal World).

2)SM 27-3-76(1, 2):- Oonch te oonch Baap hai sab aatmaavon kaa baap. Phir hai sookshmvatan. Yah hai sthoolvatan. Sookshmvatan may sirf BVS rahte hain. UNKI DOOSRI KOYI HISTORY, GEOGRAPHY NAHIN HAIN. Yah theen(3) tabkey hain. God is one. Unko rachnaa bhi ek hai. -128-, 129

= Highest of High is the Father of all souls. Then is the SW (Subtle Region). This is PW (Physical World). In SW, there are just B, V, S. THERE IS NO OTHER HISTORY OR GEOGRAPHY OF THEM. These are the three floors. God is one. His creation is also ONE.

3) Baba says- "trimurtis do not exist"! and "there is no other history and geography of trimurtis"

How do PBKs explain these?

The BK view is put here- Post No. 26 to 28 -
http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... t=20#p4078

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