Flaws in PBK Philosophy

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mbbhat
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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 31 Jan 2016

# Flaw No. 124) Flaws beyond imagination
sita wrote:I did not know this is the belief of the BKs.
PBKs assume some things about BKs without knowing it. For example- when BKs say in their 7 days course to lowkik people - ""Ram, Krishna, etc are not deities, not God, Shiv/point alone is God, (not even Shankar, as they explain Shankar and Shiv are different)", some lowkik people misunderstand and convey the information to others as - "BKs do not believe in God at all". I had noticed this. But, it is a small percentage only,where as most of the PBKs will assume such things about BKs.

Even here, arjun and some other PBK members too have assumed somethings. The main reason is- Some things are not frequently discussed or spoken in BKWSU. For example- Sakar- niraakaar, or subtle Brahma-Prajapita Brahma, etc. But, for PBKs it is a crucial topic, and they will give extra ordinary weightage to it. So, when some BKs become PBKs, the training what they receive in PBK Bhatti would be like- "BKs believe so and so". This WILL BE PUT INTO HEADS OF NEW PBKs.
Mostly there is no much Yaad in PBK bhatti. It is once again their 7 days course in Kampil. Just for the namesake only they are making them attending the bhatti so as to show that they are following srimath.
And, since the new PBKs would be highly intoxicated (a usual things that happens everywhere when a person changes his religion, and even in life of a Bk during beginning when they enter into gyaan) they will assume some things. They will get caught in the hands of senior PBKs. [This will happen even in BKWSU, but in AIVV, it is almost 100%, since everyone is given a handbook containing Murli points with date, just to mug and teach others).

When the PBk who gave me their gyaan (AIVV gyaan), said to me, "we have both B baba(Mother) and Prajapita/Father in body of Dixit". I just asked him, do you feel B baba in body of Dixit? He said "Yes". But unfortunately, all the things were just put on to their head. There is neither feeling of ShivBaba, nor heaven, nor Silence world, but just body of Dixit which itself is considered to be Paramdham or Sukhdham. [They just mis interpret a Murli point for even this].

When PBKs equate even the highest worlds- Paramdham and Heaven to impure body of Dixit, can they distinguish between Dixit and B baba or ShivBaba there? Actually, it is very difficult to discriminate between ShivBaba and B baba in the Chariot/Lekhraj Kirpalani or in Dadi Gulzar. But, the PBk told me- Yes, we feel B baba too.
Interestingly, PBKs HAVE TO REPLY SO. Because if they do not reply so, how can they prove they are getting sustenance of B baba too? Now, if they reply Yes, again they are caught in their own trap.
[For BKs, it is much simpler than PBKs. There are just two souls in body of Lekhraj Kirpalani. And since ShivBaba does not ride Chariot whole day- BKs will get feelings of both ShivBaba and B baba in unique ways during different periods of a day.]
But, for PBKs, there are three souls in one body, that too one is controlling/disturbing the other! How to feel them separately as to realize both CORPOREAL Father and CORPOREAL(or subtle?) mother?*

Many times, most of the PBKs(almost every PBk member even here) do not understand even the question itself and reply irrelevantly. Because their head is stuck just as a child had mugged some lessons.
If it is so, it means they have neglected the Murli.
You may see who has neglected the Murli- viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50808&hilit=alag#p50808 Murli says- both Bap and Dada are together. You know very well that BKs believe Dada to be subtle Brahma (after 1969). How can subtle body go to Paramdham? Do BKs believe so?
I mean they say "hail to the mother", but why do they not mention the Father, does she has a husband or not.
That is what Baba says- sooth hee moonjhaa huvaa hai. = The whole thread has got confused. People do not know. People have forgotten both Shiv and his Chariot. Instead of Prajapita/Brahma, people have thought God of Gita as Krishna. This is the problem. - Put here- Post No. 77 and 66 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ley#p11388 Due to this, people do not know that saraswathi is mouth born progeny of Brahma.
No, ShivBaba has said that Brahma Baba is in fact Jagadamba.
Understand the context properly. You wrote about "respect for a widow in the view from lowkik world". So, I replied in the view of lowkik world. Why do you need ShivBaba here at first place? You DO NOT HAVE REPLY. Then you/PBKs will not hesitate to use even ShivBaba as scapegoat.

But, ShivBaba has said logically. [You are taking only isolated Murli points]. ShivBaba has said- even though Real Jagadamba is B baba, he is gupt, not recognized as Mother by anyone in lowkik. He is considered just as Bull/Father/Prajapita, NOT COW. The temples are of female/junior Jagadamba(Mama). I have already put this in this very same topic just few days before.

So, you do neither understand what you write nor what ShivBaba says. This is the status of PBKs
In the Shivling, the female part is Parvati.
Read the post fully. PBKs believe two female roles associated w.r.t Mr Dixit. One is B baba playing as ardh_naareeshawar, and another the base- jalaadhaari Parvati. My question was if the base of Vedanti sister, is ling half B baba, and half Dixit?
In the Murli, ShivBaba has said that we are all Parvatis, even the soul of Ram is number one Parvati.
Then why PBKs do not believe Ram as "No. 01 Brahma"? Why do they give seat Adi/First Brahma to Kamala Devi?

* - It is a great unfortunate thing for PBKs which they had given high importance to Avyakt Murlis and claim B baba too enters Mr Dixit. This has become a spiritual suicide to PBKs, because a)Mr Dixit never thought the simple logic- the rider would be more powerful than Chariot, and secondly- In Avyakt Murlis, no much weightage is given to Prajapita or corporeal things.

I was actually surprised when PBKs quote/use Avyakt Murli points, because none of the Avyakt Murli points prove their claims. In fact, totally go against them. The best way for Mr Dixit was to reject Avyakt Murlis just by declaring them as words of Lekhraj Kirpalani. But, giving Avyakt Murli points a great importance, PBKs have committed doubly suicide.

Sorry to say this. But, it is drama. All the very best.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 31 Jan 2016

Whatever PBKs assume about BK is most often based on personal experience, as most of the PBKs have been following BK. But it is true that different concepts can abide in different people and there could be some change of concepts.

When I was a BK, I used to remember the Supreme Soul in Paramdham as a point of light. I believe everyone else used to have done the same. This was the practice. At the time of Avyakt milan I was thinking that the Supreme Soul comes from Paramdham through the Subtle Region and takes Brahma Baba along with him in the body of Dadi Gulzar. I am sure many who have been in BK here will confirm that this was their understanding.

I saw the point that Bap and Dada are combined, but does it mean they are combined in the Subtle Region, when the Murli says that I don't come in the Subtle Region dweller.

PBKs do believe that the soul of Ram is the first Brahma.

I don't know if you have attended the Bhatti and who have told you that in the Bhatti there is no Yaad. Yaad starts from the moment we come to know the Supreme Soul is there on earth. That's why the Bhatti goes on for the mothers in bondage all the time, they don't need to go anywhere for that. One may have not even seen Baba but his Yaad can go on. Yaad is something internal and no one from outside can know how much a certain person is remembering and who is he remembering. Yaad does not mean to sit through the body, but in the Bhatti you have free time to even sit for hours if you like.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 31 Jan 2016

# Flaw No. 125) Failure to understand the VERY BASICS; and PBKs contradicting with each other, WITHOUT BEING AWARE that they are doing so:-
sita wrote:When I was a BK, I used to remember the Supreme Soul in Paramdham as a point of light. I believe everyone else used to have done the same. This was the practice.

Individual BELIEF CAN BE MISTAKEN, and may, and can be DIFFERENT from the existing ACTUAL ground situation.
Baba has clearly said- consider even words of B baba to be that of MINE. Does that imply just ShivBaba alone speaks and B baba does not speak at all?
Baba says- to forget body. Does that imply body does not exist at all?

Baba says- remember me up there, even if I am here. - already shown to you-
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1991&p=28474&hilit=clearest#p28474
Does that mean that ShivBaba does not come down below at all?
At the time of Avyakt milan I was thinking that the Supreme Soul comes from Paramdham through the Subtle Region and takes Brahma Baba along with him in the body of Dadi Gulzar. I am sure many who have been in BK here will confirm that this was their understanding.
Yes, I know many do this, EVEN NOW. But, that does not imply that BKs LITERALLY believe ShivBaba is ALWAYS in Paramdham, after 1969, till the end of Conf. Age.
TRY YOUR BEST TO PROPERLY COMPREHEND THE AV POINT IN the link below, OTHERWISE CLARIFY SAME FROM Virendra Dev Dixit SOONEST, AND POST HIS CLARIFICATION HERE, FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS - IF YOU BELIEVE GOD IS RESIDING IN YOUR BODILY GURU, HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CLARIFY THIS MATTER FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HIS CHILDREN, IS IT NOT??? INDIVIDUAL PBKs SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO POST THEIR 'ARROGANT & MUDDLED' CLARIFICATIONS THEMSELVES, WHEN GOD IS PRESENT IN THEIR BODILY GURU IN 'Sakar', IS IT NOT???
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2602&start=45#p50899
I saw the point that Bap and Dada are combined, but does it mean they are combined in the Subtle Region, when the Murli says that I don't come in the Subtle Region dweller.

Do not take isolated Murli points. There are Murli points which say- "Prajapita Brahma is here, as well as in Subtle Region". Also, "I am in complete Brahma", and "complete" is APPLICABLE to subtle Brahma, AFTER 1969 - already posted on the forum. Just refer to earlier posts of a few days ago. WHY DO PBKs DELIBERATELY CHOOSE TO PAY SCANT REGARD TO THE POINTS HIGHLIGHTED HEREIN, WHICH GO COMPLETELY AGAINST THEIR PHILOSOPHY???
PBKs do believe that the soul of Ram is the first Brahma.
Then why do PBKs call Kamala Devi as Adi Brahma? PBKs believe God first entered in Gitamata right? - Read first reply from arjun.- viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2112
Then they compound the above version further by saying that KDD was instrumental to give spiritual birth to Virendra Dev Dixit, and then almost simultaneously Virendra Dev Dixit was instrumental to give spiritual birth to KDD. In that case, JagatMata & JagatPita, or Jagadamba & Prajapita, or Adi Devi & Adi Dev, or Confluence Age Radha & Krishna, or Confluence Age L & N, or Sita & Ram, should be the souls of KDD and Virendra Dev Dixit, as SOUL MATES or 'YUGAL-DANA', is it not??? Then where does Sr Vedanti fit in??? And how come NEITHER of them are PRACTICALLY with Virendra Dev Dixit at the PRESENT TIME - since his SOUL-MATE should have been PRACTICALLY with him from the very beginning to the very end IN CORPOREAL - and not simply through the intellect - as the PBKs like to continue to fool the innocent PBK novices by saying they are with him through the intellect - a CLEVER PLOY to continue to TRICK them and keep them TRAPPED in their VICIOUS GRIP???

ANOTHER PBK says- Prajapita was adopted from first Brahma (Adi Brahma or Kamala Devi, in her previous birth as Gita Mata). WHEREAS, you are now saying Prajapita or Virendra Dev Dixit himself is first Brahma. Mostly it seems even God Himself will not be able to understand the CONFOUNDED language of PBKs!!!

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by arjun » 03 Feb 2016

Mostly it seems even God Himself will not be able to understand the CONFOUNDED language of PBKs!!!
That is why Shiv-Shankar Bholeynath is shown to have entangled hairlocks. Human beings cannot unlock them.

That is why God is said to be an ocean of knowledge who gives us the water of knowledge drop by drop till the end of the Confluence Age whose memorial is the falling of water drop by drop on the Shivling in the temples of Shiv.

Those who don't understand His words will keep on fighting and defaming Him till the end.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 03 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 126) Ridiculous claims about Piyu ki Vani:-

PBKs utter words "Piyu ki Vani" many times and claim it favours claims of AIVV. But,

SM 27-1-78(2):- Manushyon ki buddhi may toh vahee Gita ka Gyan hai. AAGE HUMAARI BUDHHI MAY BHI VAHEE PURAANAA Gita KA GYAAN THAA. VAHEE Gita OM MANDALI MAY SUNAATE THAY. Parantu abhi guhy baatein suntey2 saare raaz ko samajh gaye hain. MANUSHY BHI KAHTE HAIN AAGE AAPKAA GYAAN AUR THAA. AB TO BAHUT ACHCHAA HAI. Ab samajh gaye hain ki kaise gruhasth vyavahaar may rahte kamal phool ban_naa hai. -35- [babies, rath, Gita, corrections, gyaan, predictions, sp]

= People have in their intellect the old Gita only. Before, even in our intellect, we had the same old Gita. We used to listen/speak the same Gita in Om Mandli. But now, listening to deep points, we have understood the essence. People also say- before your knowledge was something different. Now it is good. Now, we understand how to remain pure in household path ....

PBKs believe their Sevakram (who they believe to be Piyu), left Yagya in 1942 itself. When the initial gyaan itself was less or sub-standard, and Sevakram left Yagya by 1942 itself, what is there for them to claim in these?

In fact, PBKs here also fall into their own trap, because they believe the cause for loss of faith of Sevakram was due to lack of knowledge (so their own Piyu ki Vanis??!).

PBKs also quote the Murli point saying- "Karachi se Murli chalti aayi hai = From Karachi, Murlis have started", and mention year 1947. So, Murlis have practically started only after 1947. So, Piyu ki Vani could also have started only after that.

[It is believed the initial Murlis were very strict, and Baba used harsh words, also Baba used to write Murlis at 1 or 2 AM in the morning and children used to read it in the morning]. I do not have full idea about it as it is not much discussed in BKWSU*. But, we can see many more hoaxes in PBK claims regarding it in the following discussion - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2166&hilit=piyu

*- Even though the above Murli point says- initially lowkik Gita was used in Yagya, it is rarely discussed in BKWSU. I never heard it from any Bk Seniors, but understood from the Murli point.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 03 Feb 2016

TRY YOUR BEST TO PROPERLY COMPREHEND THE AV POINT IN the link below, OTHERWISE CLARIFY SAME FROM Veerendra Dev Dixit SOONEST, AND POST HIS CLARIFICATION HERE, FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS - IF YOU BELIEVE GOD IS RESIDING IN YOUR BODILY GURU, HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CLARIFY THIS MATTER FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HIS CHILDREN, IS IT NOT??? INDIVIDUAL PBKs SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT TO POST THEIR 'ARROGANT & MUDDLED' CLARIFICATIONS THEMSELVES, WHEN GOD IS PRESENT IN THEIR BODILY GURU IN 'Sakar', IS IT NOT???
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2602&start=45#p50899
BKWSU AV 17.03.1981, Revised 31.01.2016 wrote:
बाप-दादा तो अपना काम नहीं छोड़ते हैं। बाप सदा बच्चों की सम्भाल करते हैं। लौकिक में भी देखो माँ बच्चे के आसपास चक्र ज़रूर लगायेगी, क्योंकि स्नेह है। तो बाप-दादा व माता-पिता बच्चों के यहाँ चक्र कैसे नहीं लगायेंगे इसलिए रोज़ चक्र लगाते हैं। बाप-दादा दोनों साकार शरीर से अशरीरी हैं। वह अव्यक्त शरीरधारी, वह निराकार। दोनों को नींद की आवश्यकता नहीं है, इसलिए जहाँ भी चाहें वहाँ पहुँच सकते हैं।

BKWSU AV 17.03.1981, Revised 31.01.2016 wrote:
Bap-Dada do not leave their work. Father always looks after the children. Look in the lokik too, the mother certainly will tour around the children, because there is love. So how can it be that Bap-Dada or Mother-Father do not tour around the children, that's why they tour around every day. Bap-Dada both are body less from the corporeal body. He is possessor of Avyakt, subtle body, He is nirakar. Both don't need sleep. That's why they can arrive wherever they like.

I think that both do not need sleep means they are in this world, where people in general do need sleep, but these two souls are special in this matter. It is also said that they are both incorporeal from the corporeal body, whilst being in a corporeal body they are not in a corporeal stage. And they tour around the children, as it is said that Bap and Dada enter children to do service.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 04 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 127)Are PBKs yet to take spiritual birth?:-
sita wrote:So I am mouth born creation of Brahma and Prajapita Brahma, that is mother and Father both.- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1860&p=50926#p50926
1)In their juggling exercises, sometimes PBKs say- "Sevakram or Dixit plays role of Father and B baba or Kamala Devi plays role of Mother". Sometimes, they say- "No. It is ACTUALLY ShivBaba who plays role of Father or mother through them". and strongly fit to the latter ones during arguments. [I believe both ShivBaba and the Chariot play role of Maatpita - as already put - post No.s from 06- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... =25&t=1167]

Actually, incorporeal maatpita should be ShivBaba and next the corporeal ones too. That is logical, is it not?

2)Interestingly, our arjun soul believes title PBK can be given for the children who had been in Yagya from 1937 till 1942.[we can see how illogical their statements are- flaw No. 78- viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50671&hilit=1942#p50671]

3)But, as per PBK belief, God did not enter in Lekhraj Kirpalani till 1947. So, how did he give title PBK for that period? Are they real/complete children? So, is "title PBK" COMPLETE or just HALF?

4)Now- as per the above calim of soul brother sita- "PBKs are mouth born progenies of both Dixit/SEvakram and B Baba." But, as per PBK view, it fails again. When Lekhraj Kirpalani has no corporeal body at all after 1969, from where does his mouth arise? And- as PBKs believe God did not enter in Lekhraj Kirpalani till 1947, how can he be mother as well during that period?

So- without mother (without Lekhraj Kirpalani playing role of Mother), did JUST Father(Sevakram) gave birth? How silly, is it not?

4a)PBKs believe Father puts seed in mother and then it is mother who takes care of children, and Father approach the children after they grow. But, who is putting the seed here in Mother (B baba) - Mr Sevakram or ShivBaba? If it is Sevakram, how?
4b)If it is God, it can be only after 1947 (in THEIR VIEW). So, how can children till 1942 be called as complete?


5)Even after 1969, PBKs never had sustenance of Mother at all. God did not give any sustenance to them by their real Mother/KD [= No Murli has been narrated through her]. - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2593&p=50901#p50901
As there is no mouth of Lekhraj Kirpalani after 1969, then how can PBKs claim they are mouth born progenies of BOTH B Baba and Dixit?

This is again a proof that shows how Mr Dixit committed spiritual suicide by bifurcating roles of Mother and Father, and claiming that subtle Brahma enters in Him. Even though Murli points clearly say SEVERAL TIMES- "God plays role of Both- maatpita. Even the Chariot is both Father and mother combined", Mr Dixit and his followers just turn a blind eye on such clear points, and go in their own path, just like saying "my cock has three legs, and any cock if at all has two legs, it is not real cock, it is just title holder cock"

Still, it becomes a responsibility of BKs either to give them good wishes or to remain in saakshi bhaav (detached state). All the very best to them.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 04 Feb 2016

4)Now- as per the above calim of soul Brother sita- "PBKs are mouth born progenies of both Dixit/SEvakram and B Baba." But, as per PBK view, it fails again. When Lekhraj Kirpalani has no corporeal body at all after 1969, from where does his mouth arise? And- as PBKs believe God did not enter in Lekhraj Kirpalani till 1947, how can he be mother as well during that period?
As we have already discussed, it is enough to follow the words that has emerged through the mouth of Brahma, for to be called a mouth born Brahmin.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 04 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 128)PBKs take U turn and surrender their own claims inadvertently:-
sita wrote:As we have already* discussed, it is enough to follow the words that has emerged through the mouth of Brahma, for to be called a mouth born Brahmin.
The first step of PBKs is to question or argue with BKs - "Where is Prajapita in CORPOREAL in BKWSU? If not, how can BKs be called as mouth born after 1969, etc? Is BKWSU running by just inspiration, etc.."
But, now they say- it is enough to follow the words which have come through their mouth. Another double standard. :laugh: [*- It was not discussed so far at all. So far no PBK has agreed on this].

Now, you have said it rightly. It is enough if we follow words that have come through mouth. The Chariot need not be in corporeal all the time. Baba has also said- "Christians are mouth born progenies of Christ" (even though Christ has left his body long before).

But, again your above right words are of no use. You/PBKs will still not agree even to what they say. They will still say- "PBKs only are mouth born, not BKs". PBKs will also continue to say- "Lekhraj Kirpalani is just title holder (even when they still DEPEND ON WORDS WHICH HAVE COME THROUGH MOUTH OF Lekhraj Kirpalani.)"
PBKs are playing role of traitors as per drama. Their double standards and illogical arguments, confounded statements will still continue. When drama has given them permission, what can we say? In heaven, also there is role of lots of servants. So, what is happening is right as per drama.

Mu Point:- Maya fulfills wrong desires. So, as they are under Maya, how can they realize either ShivBaba or drama.

But, since they are also spiritual children of the same most beloved, ocean of love, merciful ShivBaba, wish them all the best. Let their intellect open before it is too late. If not, let them play their role as servants in G Age happily.
Few more Mu Points
1):-Vahaan toh daas daasiyaan bhee dil par chadhee huyee hongee= There in heaven, even servants would be at heart. So, BKs have to accept them as they are.

2)Mu Point:- Ek Baar Mama, baba kahaa , varse ke hakdaar banaa = Even if you have said/felt Mama, baba at least once, you will get right for the property.

3)Terey phoolon se bhee pyaar, terey kaanton se bhee pyaar, = Oh God, We love your flowers(good children), also thorns (bad.weak children).

4)Shiv par ak kaa phool bhee chadhaatey hain = Even the bad smelling flowers is accepted by Shiv.

So, as per drama, BKs have to pardon PBKs with heart, but also with courage. baba has said you need to be rahamdil till end. A great Murli point about traitors, bhaagantis is said below.

5)SM 29-5-83(2, 3):- Satyug treta may aur koyi dharm hota naheen. Ab sthaapnaa ho rahi hai. Ram chandr ko kshatriypanaa ki nishaani de di hai. Barobar yuddh ke maidaan may thaa. Parantu poori jeeth na honey kaaran fail ho gayaa. Is kaaran sooryavamshi ban naheen saktaa. PRASHN UTH_TAA HAI Ram SITA Satyug MAY AATE HAIN? HAAN AATE HAIN. PARANTU NAAPAAS HOTHAY HAIN. ISLIYE JO PAAS HUYE HAIN, UNKEY AAGE BHAREE DHOTE HAIN. Radha Krishn jo hain vah LN bante hain. Jinhoney bhee padhaayi padhee, vah Satyug may toh zaroor aayenge. Kyonki avinaashi gyaan ka vinaash naheen hota. Praja toh banti hai na. Koyi chale jaate hainj, phir chakr lagaakar aate hain. Jaayenge kahaan? Shamaa ek hi hai. Parvaaney anek hain. Toh shamaa par aate rahenge. Bhaaganti ho jaanevaale bhee aayenge. Sadguru ki nindaa karaayi hai. PHIR BHEE BABA KE PAAS AATE HAIN TOH SAMJHAAYAA JAATAA HAI PHIR SE TUM YA GYAAN UTHAA SAKTEY HO. VAH FEEL KARTE HAIN BAROBAR HUMAAREE HEE BHOOL HAI. TOH UNKO BHI SHARAN LENI PADTI HAI. PHIR UNKI BHI SEVA KARENGE. ANTH TAK FULL RAHAM KARNAA HAI. KITNAA BHI VIGHN DAALTHAY HAIN. PHIR BHI KAHENGE, BHAL AAVO. TRAIL KARO. MANAA NAHEEN HAI. BAAP HAI HEE RAHAMDIL. Tum unkey bachchey ho na. Kahte hain Maya ne bhatkaayaa hai. Phir bhi unki service ki jaati hai. Sharan aate hain toh phir uthaanaa hai. Avagun ko nikaal gunvaan ban_naa chaahiye. Baap kab dushman ban naheen saktaa. Behad ke baap kahenge bachche sukhi raho. Raham aataa hai. Kahaan jaayenge. Aur toh koyi jagah naheen jahaan Baap se varsaa le sakey. -73-, 74 [Ram, Bhaganti, service]


= ......... Ramchandr has been shown as a warrior(with bows). Of course, he was in war field. But, due to not attaining full victory, he failed. Hence he could not become sun dynasty. The question arises- DOES Ram AND SITA COME IN Golden Age? YES, THEY DO COME. But, they fail. HENCE THEY BOW TO THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED(or serve). RK become LN. All those who study, they will definitely come to Golden Age. Because the eternal/immortal knowledge does not perish. Citizens are created, is it not? ......Even those who had become bhaagantis (who have left) will come/return. They had defamed Sadguru. If they return, then it is explained- you can once again take knowledge. They will realize it was their fault. Even then, they their service has to be done. Till end, you should be fully rahamdil(merciful heart). Even if they have put so much obstacles, you will have to say- OF COURSE, COME. DO TRAIL (ONCE AGAIN). IT IS NOT OBJECTED. Father IS RAHAMDIL. You are His children, is it not?...

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 04 Feb 2016

The first step of PBKs is to question or argue with BKs - "Where is Prajapita in CORPOREAL in BKWSU? If not, how can BKs be called as mouth born after 1969, etc? Is BKWSU running by just inspiration, etc.."
But, now they say- it is enough to follow the words which have come through their mouth. Another double standard. :laugh: [*- It was not discussed so far at all. So far no PBK has agreed on this].
We have discussed this matter here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2552&start=60#p50661

The question about Brahma is asked, because it is not possible to have connection with ShivBaba without Brahma, and it does not fit if Brahmins are in corporeal and Brahma is subtle. It is said that Brahma is along with the children and they are together for as long as the Confluence Age lasts. If children are in corporeal, Brahma has to be in corporeal. If Brahma is subtle, children should also be subtle. But if Brahmins are in corporeal and their Brahma is subtle they cannot be of the same clan.

One Bk was making a joke about how weird our Gyan is....our Father is a point of light and our mother is a male angel. It is weird, because it is not normal. If your spiritual mother and Father are there in corporeal bodies like you, it is normal. In the Avyakt Vanis it is sad that we have to give the return of love, to become angels like Brahma Baba, to become Bapsaman etc. But it is said that we have to become Avyakt whilst in the body. So should we or should we not leave the body? There was also one point about karmateet stage I read that it means when the criminal eyes break and we become firmly civil eyed that is called karmateet stage. Again a point in support of the karmateet stage in corporeal form.

Even today the Dadis have intoxication that they have received corporeal sustenance, they have played in the lap of ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and other BKs who have not, agree that they are lucky, they have some boon, they see them with admiration and sweet jealousy. I cannot accept your attempt to completely dismiss the importance of the meeting in corporeal. Then why do the BKs go to Madhuban. Why do they like to meet face to face. Will it not be the same if they read the knowledge from the mouth at home? It is not the same, because the vibration is not there.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 04 Feb 2016

# Flaw No. 129) Few more examples of ACTING AGAINST ShivBaba:-
sita wrote:We have discussed this matter here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2552&start=60#p50661
The point was- do PBKs accept BKs as mouth born?* Mostly No. PBKs always say(I have heard it as same from all the PBKs who had contacted me) -" BKs are kukhvamsahavali of Brahma, (not mukhvamshavali)". I asked how? They say- "BKs have attachment to B baba, they are born from lap of Brahma". To such an extent PBKs will not hesitate to BLUNTLY twist Murli point. But, Baba has clearly said- there is no name of kv(kukh-vamsahavali) here.

SM 22-12-82(1):- Prajapita hai to zaroor unko dharm ke bachche honge. Mukhvamshavali Maatpita ke chahiye na. Mama KI BHI MUKHVAMSHAVALI KAHENGE. BABA KI BHI MUKHVAMSHAVALI KAHENGE. DAADE KI BHI MUKHVAMSHAVALI THAH_REY. Kukhvamshavali ka yahaan naam hee nahin. Ve Kaliyugi braahman hain kukh vamshavali. -135 [mv-kv, adoption, maatpita]

= ...There is no name of KV here. Those Kali Yugi braahmins are KVs.

Even though Baba specifically says so, PBKs will not accept it. They will act not only superior to ShivBaba, but also against HIM. It is left to them.
The question about Brahma is asked, because it is not possible to have connection with ShivBaba without Brahma, and it does not fit if Brahmins are in corporeal and Brahma is subtle....
Useless silly arugments, as already said in numerous Sakar and Avyakt Murlis.
One BK was making a joke about how weird our Gyan is....our Father is a point of light and our mother is a male angel. It is weird, because it is not normal.
Definitely something weird had happened in Bhaktimarg. Then only ShivBaba has some work in drama, is it not? That is why Baba says- The mother(Brahma) is incognito. Baba has CLEARLY SAID, In FACT, Adam = Eve.- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ADAM#p9071 IS THIS NOT WEIRD? In fact, it is even more. More can be added.

But, that is the main point/issue here which is to be understood. Because both Father and mother are combined. This is spiritual relation, not physical one. So, to some weak BKs also it may seem to be weird. Such weak BKs only are likely then to become PBKs or ex BKs. (as per drama plan).

You may see even here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... odh#p13399. There could be some weak BKs. Nothing strange in that.
There was also one point about karmateet stage I read that it means when the criminal eyes break and we become firmly civil eyed that is called karmateet stage. Again a point in support of the karmateet stage in corporeal form.
How does this point indicate there is need of Chariot in corporeal? Individual will be in corporeal, obviously, have I denied it? See post No. 170 in the link.
But, still bapadada supports through Gulzar Dadi, even now. How can you say- there is no corporeal support?
Even today the Dadis have intoxication that they have received corporeal sustenance, they have played in the lap of ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and other BKs who have not, agree that they are lucky, they have some boon, they see them with admiration and sweet jealousy.
Silly minds would be engaged in silly things. Just think- Of those who had taken corporeal sustenance in Yagya, more than 80% had left during beggary period. [of the 400 , just 70 to 80 survived]. Baba clearly says- many, even who had got visions also had left.

There is a wonderful Murli point- "Achchaa huvaa tum deri se aaye. Agar bhaaganti ho jaate toh? = It is good that you came later. If you also could have become bhaagantis?!."

Also- See post No. 147, mu point No. 5) http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... #p12911,[b] which dismisses the need of corporeal Chariot in the way PBKs believe.[/b]

But- Even Jagadamba of PBKs and many PBKs had left Mr Dixit and have formed their own splinter groups. PBKs believe the God's Chariot himself left Yagya in 1942. Is there anything in the arguments? Did the corporeal or meeting face to face rescue them?

SM 3-9-73(2,3):- Bachchon may bhi koyi2 hai. achchaa bhojan na miley to aaraam na aaye. Baba Mama ka naam bad_naam kar dete hain. Phir samjhaavo to gussaa aa jaataa. YAH NAHIN SAMAJHTE ShivBaba DHARMARAJ DWARA KITNI SAJA DENGE. Choron ko dar thode hi rahta hai. Vah jaise jail birds ho jate hain. Yahaan bhi aise don’t care karnevaale hain. Vah phir aashcharyavanti bhaaganti ho jate. Maya aisee buri gati kara deti hai. Srimath par nahin chalte. Bas, humko toh asuri math par hi chalna hai, srimath par nahin chalna hai. Amrut peen eke liye ablaavon par atyaachaar hote hain. ATYAACHAAR HI AAHO SOUBHAAGY HAI. Baap se varsaa toh le lenge na. Bahuton par atyaachaar hote hain. Kyonki mooth bigar rah nahin sakte. Baba samjhate they tum pavitr bante ho, mooth bigar rah nahin sakte ho toh maathaa mundvaa gavur may jaakar baitho. Phir aise kade2 akshar sunkar naaraaz bhi hote they… -109
I cannot accept your attempt to completely dismiss the importance of the meeting in corporeal. Then why do the BKs go to Madhuban. Why do they like to meet face to face. Will it not be the same if they read The Knowledge from the mouth at home? It is not the same, because the vibration is not there.
See- just 108 or 8 pass. You also believe that. So, should we see brothers/sisters or Father/mother? Jaisee drushti, vaisee srushti.
Of course, - if we have chance(to attend Sakar milans), one may take it. Else, OK, there is nothing to bother about it.

Baba clearly says- "You are vanavaasi, you should not have any interest in this world". But, Baba also says- "khaavo, peevo, ghoomo, paisaa hai toh aeroplane may bhee baitho, lekin baba kee Yaad may".

Baba has clearly said- it is not a question of first or second. It is variety part. see mu point No. 01 - Post No. 170- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 70+#p14353

So, we need to take all the Murlis point.

*- But, unfortunately, PBKs just take isolated Murli points and use them just in their favour, not even logically. But, OK. That is part of drama.

Flaw No. 130)What is not weird to PBKs?

In a VCD, I had seen Mr dixit saying- "Ooparvaaley hi laaj rakhnee hai, va neechevalon kee laaj rakhnee hai = Should you bother about the one who is above, or those who are below?"
Then why should PBKs bother if some do not like to agree male as mother?

But, for PBKs, it is perfectly OK if three souls acting in body, and one disturbing the other to the extent to create eclipse on the other. Some nine souls enter body of Kamala Devi! And- Mr Dixit and Kamala Devi failed in Yagya(that too twice), ... Plenty can be added.
These are not weird in the dictionary of PBKs!

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by Roy » 04 Feb 2016

mbbhat wrote:......... Ramchandr has been shown as a warrior(with bows). Of course, he was in war field. But, due to not attaining full victory, he failed. Hence he could not become sun dynasty. The question arises- DOES Ram AND SITA COME IN Golden Age? YES, THEY DO COME. But, they fail. HENCE THEY BOW TO THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED(or serve). RK become LN. All those who study, they will definitely come to Golden Age. Because the eternal/immortal knowledge does not perish.
“Even Ram(i.e. Prajapita Brahma) studied Raja Yoga in his previous birth(i.e. between the years 1936/7-1941/2). He failed during the studies (due to a lack of knowledge at this time). For this reason (in his next birth) he was named ‘Kshatriya’(i.e. a warrior, and is shown with the arrows of Knowlege in Bhakti marg, that he began to arm himself with on his return to the Yagya, in 1969/70, via his powerful churning in his quiver-like intellect, of the Murlis and Vanis, for 5-6 years, from 1969/70 to 1976; at which time, he becomes completely self realised).” [Mu 31.08.74]

"Father explains - it’s not said that Ram(Prajapita) failed (completely). No!... Some children (in the beginning of the Yagya in their previous births) failed, who become Ramchandra. Do Ram and Sita study that they have to fail? These are matters to be understood. If someone hears that Ramchandra failed, then they will ask about the place and time when he used to study. He studied in the previous birth in such a way that he got this post." [Mu 09.08.70]

“Very good children play very good roles for 5(Ram)-10(Sita) years (at the beginning of the Confluence Age). Then they get defeated (due to the lack of knowledge at this time).” [Mu 08.07.78]

"... stayed (with Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba) for 10 years... (Sita) would go into trance. They(Ram and Sita ) were sitting as heads. Baba(i.e. Father Shiv) gave directions (by) entering them. There was so much respect (for these souls)... even Mama(Om Radhe) and Baba(Brahma Krishna) were their students. They also are not here today. There wasn't that much knowledge at that time(i.e. in the early years of the Yagya)." [Mu 25.07.67]

“Those who expired at the early stage of Yagya, again might have grown up to 20 years(i.e. Sita - born in 1947 - returned to the Yagya, in 1965) or 25 years(i.e. Ram - re-born in 1942 in Ahmedgunj, Farrukhabad, UP - returned to the Yagya in 1969/70). They might have taken their admission to the knowledge.” [Mu 17.02.75 - originally narrated in 1967]

“Everything, whatever happened in the beginning (of the Confluence Age), has to happen in the end.” [Mu 18.10.72]

"Those who come first (at the beginning of the Confluence Age, in their previous births)... only (they) remain till the end (in practical bodily form, in their next births). It’s a wonderful drama, isn’t it?" [Mu 06.03.74]

“The children who left their mortal coils(i.e. their previous body) will surely return to the Brahmin clan (in their next body).” [Mu 17.02.74]

"The result at the end only proves useful.” [Mu 29.12.05]


Roy

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by sita » 05 Feb 2016

Dear mbbhat,

Whatever the PBKs who had contacted you told you is right. BKs have attachment to Brahma Baba, they remember the body, that is why they can be called kukvanshavali. You have correctly said that the fact that someone has taken corporeal sustenance cannot be a reason for a sense of superiority, but it is true that one can develop arrogance and bodyconsiousness on the basis of that. This is what will make one a kukvanshavali Brahmin.
How does this point indicate there is need of Chariot in corporeal? Individual will be in corporeal, obviously, have I denied it? See post No. 170 in the link.
But, still bapadada supports through Gulzar Dadi, even now. How can you say- there is no corporeal support?
I have mentioned the point about civil eyes meaning karmateet stage in support of the understanding that we don't have to leave the body.

I don't say there is no corporeal support. Although it is different, there is some support, but whose support it is. This is the matter. BKs accept the support of Brahma Baba to be the support of God, that is why they are kukvanshavali, Brahma Baba is bodily being, subtle or corporeal, he is a bodily being. So Brahma Baba became God, the soul of Krishna become God, by accepting the support through Gulzar Dadi to be that of God.
Some nine souls enter body of Kamala Devi!
This is some new knowledge I hear from you. Who has told you this?

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 10 Feb 2016

131)PBKs INADVERTENTLY imply they are KVs (Kukhvanshavalis):-
sita wrote:Whatever the PBKs who had contacted you told you is right. BKs have attachment to Brahma Baba, they remember the body, that is why they can be called kukvanshavali. You have correctly said that the fact that someone has taken corporeal sustenance cannot be a reason for a sense of superiority, but it is true that one can develop arrogance and body-consiousness on the basis of that. This is what will make one a kukvanshavali Brahmin.
Murli Point clearly says- "there is no question of Kukhvanshavalis here". Baba even has certified all the Christians as MVs (do not they have attachment to Christ? Do not they remember his body? Do not they keep photo of Christ?).

Who has no attachment? Everyone has, (except ShivBaba), number-wise. We are all here making effort to conquer attachment. Kukh means womb. KV means one who takes birth physically, through a corporeal body. The meaning is simple and clear. But, Mr Dixit tried to overact and gave some different definition of KV, considering it to have an 'unlimited' meaning - BUT TOTALLY going against PURE Shrimat of REAL ShivBaba or God. [Baba even says- disciples of saints are also MV (mouth born) - born through knowledge, or adopted]. Any birth that is not lowkik is MV, and ONLY this has a TRUE 'unlimited' meaning. [of course, some rare cases are extra ordinary- like incarnation- direct entry into another person's body].

OK, still let us agree with PBK view. Now, do PBKs believe they do not have attachment to Mr Dixit?
Do not they remember body of Dixit during their Yaad?
And- ridiculously, when many PBKs leave their body, PBKs give simple explanation that they had sanskaar of Bhakti (again similar to attachment). So, in their own view, they are saying PBKs are KVs, as per their CORRUPTED 'unlimited' meaning or interpretation of the term, is it not?
Even their great personality, blindly believed by them to be 'Jagadamba', left AIVV (when Mr Dixit was sent to Jail). So, OBVIOUSLY, she had been in AIVV ONLY due to attachment with him, is it not? So, all the PBKs have attachment to body of Mr. Dixit either intellectually or even physically, as well, is it not? So, according to their own CORRUPTED 'unlimited' interpretation of KV, PBKs, including their bodily guru, Virendra Dev Dixit, would be KV, is it not?

The spiritual suicide of Mr Dixit is visible even here. Mr. Dixit tried to relate/prove that every Murli point is directed or said about just BK and PBK family. He HAD TO DO THIS to prove his FALSE PROPAGANDA, to depict that there are more than one Brahma within BKWSU/AIVV itself and BKs are kauravas, etc.
[an example to misinterpret the Murli point- "Many (in outside world) have name Brahma"]
But, their failure is clearly visible at many places. Just a tip of the ice berg is given here-
http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... rahm#p4097

Nevertheless, everything is accurate, as per drama. Let drama continue.

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Re: Flaws in PBK Philosophy

Post by mbbhat » 10 Feb 2016

This is some new knowledge I hear from you. Who has told you this?
I have heard from PBKs that they believe some nine souls enter into Kamala Devi. Mostly it is discussed in the forum. Will search the topic and mention. Till then, you may clarify how many souls do enter in bodies of Virendra Dev Dixit, Kamala Devi and Sister Vedanti, according to your understanding. And does Brahma Baba enter BOTH into the corporeal body of Virendra Dev Dixit, (and in what capacity or capacities), AS WELL AS the body of KDD-S, (and in what capacity); also when, for what duration, for what purpose, and whether you have personally experienced the soul of Brahma Baba when he is within Virendra Dev Dixit, OR, even for that matter, whether you have personally experienced the soul of God when within Virendra Dev Dixit???
Or is it that PBKs just believe that God must be there within Virendra Dev Dixit, because of the so-called advanced clarifications of the knowledge being given through his mouth?

On the contrary, the CORRUPTED, ADULTERATED & PERVERTED so-called 'clarifications' of the PURE Versions of God in the SMs and AVs, by TOTALLY MISREPRESENTING & MISAPPROPRIATING them, to be in ACCURATE CONSONANCE with the CORRUPTED & DISTORTED CONCEPTS of Ravan Rajya, TO BE INSTRUMENTAL TO CARRY OUT THE 'SHOOTING' OF Ravan Rajya IN Confluence Age, is a CLEAR, DEFINITE PROOF that God CANNOT be within the body of Virendra Dev Dixit, since God does NOT establish Ravan Rajya, but ONLY RamRajya!!!

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