1)SM 2-2-71(4):-Neeche likha jaataa hai Baapdada. BAAP ARTHAATH ShivBaba. Daadaa kahenge Brahma. Pahle toh Daadaa ke bane. Tab varsaa paa sake. Varsaa hai ShivBaba kaa. -67
=BapDada is written below. BAAP MEANS ShivBaba. Dada is said to Brahma. First you became that of Dada. Then you can get property. Property is of ShivBaba.
[so both bap and Baba mean same]
....sorry for BAAPDADA it is said that BAAP is said to ShivBaba and not for SHIV.....still it is uncleared from your sense..
yes we first became Brahma's child,we came to know who our Dada i.e big brother is(from corporeal point of view)....and afterwards about ShivBaba our Father....
SM 15-5-81(3):- ShivBaba, Brahma daadaa donon iakatthe hain. Isliye kahte hain Baapdaadaa. Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai. Agar daadaa (se) kahenge to baaki Shiv ke paas kyaa hai? Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai Brahma dwara. -24-
= ShivBaba, Brahma Dada, both are together. Hence it is said Baapdaada.
[both are together. This implies ShivBaba should be just a point].
no it doesn't imply that ShivBaba is just point....
agar Dada kahenge toh SHIV ke paas kya hai?....so no Dada and no shiv....it is ShivBaba...lekin maataon ko aage rakhte hai....so we get varsa from ShivBaba via BRAHMA....
2)SM 25-4-77(3):- Yaad bhi ShivBaba ko karnaa hai. Rath ko nahin Yaad karnaa hai. Sakar ko Yaad nahin karnaa hai. Bhaktimaarg may tum Sakar ko Yaad karte aaye ho. Ab niraakaar Baba ki pahchaan milee hai. Niraakaar Baba srushti ke aadi, madhy, anth kaa raaz samjhaa rahe hain. – 169
= one should remember ShivBaba. Chariot should not be remembered. One should not remember corporeal. In Bhaktimarg, you have remembered Sakar. Now, (you have) received introduction of incorporeal Baba. Incorporeal Baba is explaining secrets of beginning, middle and ends of creation.
[See – incorporeal is also called as Baba].
....ShivBaba ko Yaad karna hai....shiv ko nahi.....sirf rath ko nahin Yaad karna hai.....rath mein saarthi ko Yaad karna hai..
sirf Sakar ko Yaad nahi karna hai.....Sakar mein nirakar ko Yaad karna hai....ab nirakar + baba ki pehchaan milee hai ...similar to what you say as BAAP + Dada....
"Abhi tum bachche hi jaante ho ki BABA aaya hua hai.Kalp 2 baap aate hai.Pukaarte bhi hai 'Tum maat-pita'; parantu iska arth toh koi bhi nahi samajhte,nirakar baap ke liye samajh lete hai."--------MU 5.2.95
"Achcha Sakar bigar nirakar ko Yaad karke dikhaao? kya tumko gyaan prerna se milega?Phir mere paas aaye hi kyon ho?"----------MU 2.9.02
"Behad ka baap hai nirakar.Vah jab tak Sakar mein na aaye tab tak baap se varsa kaise mile?"------------MU 21.1.00
3)SM 22-2-77(1):- ShivBaba hai to hai niraakaar. Jab tak ShivBaba ko bhi sharir na mile to ShivBaba bhee kyaa karenge. Vo to hai niraakaar. Niraakaar kee hee mahimaa gaate hain. Vo hai oonch te oonch ranevaalaa. Oonch te oonch unkaa thaavn hai. Kounsaa thaavn? Mool_vatan. Phir BVS kaa kounsaa thaavn hai? Sookshmvatan. Phir Jagadamba. Inkaa thaav hai yah sthool srushti.
= ShivBaba IS INCORPOREAL. UNTIL ShivBaba GETS BODY, WHAT CAN EVEN ShivBaba DO? He is niraakaar. People praise that of niraakaar itself.
[ so ShivBaba is one who has no body].
Yes, when we say ShivBaba it is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal media...together they become ShivBaba...fully in control of SHIV....but the soul of corporeal Chariot(Ram) follows three stages.....saakari(corporeal),aakari(subtle) and nirakari(incorporeal)... when Ram's soul stays in stage other than SAKARI(corporeal) or when Ram plays a role of aakari(subtle-time of churning) and of nirakari(incorporeal-stage of Yaad),this practical stage of SHIV+BABA is termed as nirakara with no Chariot as such....which means stage of detachment from Chariot.....mahima toh nirakar ki hai....thats true....
"Drama mein jiska part hai unmein hi pravesh karte hai aur uska naam BRAHMA rakhte hai.....Agar vah doosre mein aave toh bhi unka naam BRAHMA rakhna pade"----------MU 8.3.83
4)SM 22-2-77(1,2):- Yah jo hasti hai jismey PARAMPITA PARAMATMA pravesh karte hain. KITNEE OONCHEE HASTI HAI. Abhi tum jaante ho ShivBaba Brahma KEE HASTI KE SIVAAYE AUR KISEE MAY AA HEE NAHIN SAKTE. PRAJAPITA Brahma dwaaraa hee PARAMPITA PARAMATMA manushy srushti rachte hain. Jab2 bhaarath may bahut dukh bhrashthaachaar hote hai, yah koun samjhaate hain? PARAMPITA PARAMATMA IS HASTI SE SAMJHAATE HAIN. IS Brahma ATHVAA BHAAGEERATH BIGAR KUCH KAR HEE NAHIN SAKTE. KOYI TO CHAHIYE NA. YAH HASTI ShivBaba KEE HAI. YAH NA HO TO TUM ShivBaba SE VARSAA LE NA SAKO. 73, 73-
= ... ShivBaba cannot come in any other body except Brahma….This body is that of ShivBaba. If this is not there, you cannot get property from ShivBaba.
[again implies ShivBaba is bodyless]
....so BRAHMA becomes the name given to character where SHIV has entered in Chariot.....but if Chariot is not called as BRAHMA, that means there is no SHIV in that Chariot.....so no varsa.....is Gulzar Dadi called BRAHMA?....plzzzzzzz explain me in detail....
5)SM 28-1-77(1):- Oonch te oonch ek bhagavaan hai. Unkaa naam hee hai Shiv. Gaate bhi hain Shivaaya namah. Shiv KO HAMESHAA ShivBaba KAHAA JAATAA HAI. PP Shiv dwaaraa pahle2 yah rachnaa rachte hain. Rachaita hai ek. Rachnaa bhi vaastav may ek hai. Ek hee duniyaa hai. Rachna duniyaa ko, rachaitaa baap ko kahaa jaata hai. -37 [twisting]
= ....Shiv IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba…..
....SHIV ko hamesha ShivBaba kaha jaata hai....kyonki SHIV ki pooja Sakar BABA dwara hi hoti hai...so SHIV never gets manifested in form of point....but SHIV's incorporeal stage will manifested through his permanent Chariot of Ram hence only shiv is never called....SHIV is always called as ShivBaba....
6)SM 24-6-73(2):- Tum bachche jaante ho hum ShivBaba ke sammukh baithe hain. ShivBaba KAA KOYI AAKAAR SAAKAAR NAHIN HAI. Vah niraakaar inkey hee sharir may aate hain. Inmey aakar batlaate hain yah apne janmon ko nahin jante hain. Tum bachche bhi nahin jaante thay. Abhi tum jaante ho. 83-
= You children know we are sitting in front of ShivBaba. THERE IS NEITHER AAKAAR(SUBTLE) NOR Sakar(CORPOREAL) OF ShivBaba…...
...definitely it is self explanatory.....i told you ShivBaba is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal form.....that SHIV although been in body is always incorporeal.....never ever comes in aakar(subtle) or Sakar(corporeal)...
7)SM 2-1-75(3):- Ab purushottam ban_ne ki Sangamyug par Krishn kahaan se aayaa? Naam roop to badal jata hai na. Aise nahin ki Krishn hee kaayam hai. Krishn ki atmaa hee kaayam hai, yah bhi nahin kahenge. Is srushti may hate (sadaa) kaayam koyi cheez hai nahin. Sadaa kaayam to ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki to sabko neeche aanaa hee hai. Parantu vah bhi Sangam par aate hain. Sabhi ko vaapis le jaate hain. -3-
= ... The always constant/stable thing is just ShivBaba. All others descend below. But even he descends in Confluence Age. He takes all back.
[ShivBaba is constant. So he should be point. Because any corporeal will get into change]
'is srushti mein' means what?....this corporeal srushti.....do you think bindi or point SHIV always remain in this corporeal srushti?...it is ShivBaba(implied to Chariot of SHIV)....one who is in corporeal form always remain in this world in constant(compared to all rest souls)....that is why in Murli it is said that
"Vaastav mein mandir hona chahiye ek ShivBaba ka.Vahi nimitt bana hua hai patiton ko pavan banane ke liye"-------MU 1.8.73
....shiv patit se pavan banata hai lekin nimitt koi hai aur voh hai ShivBaba(corporeal Chariot of SHIV)...
"Shankar na hota toh humko Shankar ke saath milaate bhi nahi."-------MU 26.6.70
....that means Shankar is there in practical
"GOD is one,unka bachcha bhi one.Kaha jaata hai Trimurti Brahma.Devi devtaon mein bada kaun?Mahadev Shankar ko kehte hai"---------MU 10.2.72
....GOD SHIV comes to make us DIETY....who is the bigger diety of all?...Shankar...so he should be the SHIV's one and the only son....
"Shankar kya karte hai? Unka part wonderful hai jo tum vishwas kar na sako"-----------MU 14.5.70
....it is happening....no one is ready to believe....why?....because that has mix stage role...subtle and incorporeal.....won't you get confused?...yes that is why it is an wonderful part....which is really tough to understand.....even in Murli it is said that
"BAAP hai vichitra toh unki knowledge bhi vichitra hai"-----------MU 1.5.73
....so Shankar is also wonderful as well as BAAP....so Shankar is the part of BAAP.....as it is already said in Murli
"Baap ne samjhaaya hai Shankar ka itna part nahi.Vah next to SHIV hai"--------MU 8.3.76
....kyonki sab part bajaane waali aatma toh SHIV hai....so Shankar has no such part....SHIV plays the role...
that is why SHIV and Shankar are believed to be one and the same.....Child gets the tittle of his Father....Shankar also gets all of the tittle's of SHIV.....hence Shankar is next to SHIV....
8)SM 9-7-81(1):- Asal may atma pavitr muktidham may rahnevali hai jahaan ShivBaba BHI RAHTE HAIN. Ab ShivBaba PPB. Ek ko Baap, EK KO DAADAA KAHENGE. Yah to tum jante ho. ... ShivBaba aur daadaa ikatte hain. ShivBaba ismey virajmaan hain. -109
= Actually pure soul remains in muktidham where ShivBaba also resides. One is called as Father, the other is Dada- you know this. ...…ShivBaba and Dada are together.
[ShivBaba resides in Paramdham. So he should be a point]
....it is stage of Paramdham.....baba had said in Murli "BACHCHON TUM Paramdham KO BHI NEECHE UTAAR DOGE"
....it is the stage we attain....ShivBaba is always in Paramdham....where the soul doesn't do any type of vikarm and hence soul attains purity.....that is why it is said that "Yaad SE TUMHAARE VIKARM VINASH HONGE AUR TUM PAVITRA BANOGE"
9)SM 1-5-79(2):- Bhaktimarg may bhi samajhte hain hum ShivBaba ke baney, isliye kaashi kalvat khate hain. Bhaktimarg MAY JAB KAASHI KALVAT KHAAYE SHARIR CHOD DETE TO UNKEY PAAP SAB KAT JATE HAIN. Phir bhi vaapis to koyi jaa nahin saktaa. Oopar se sab aa jaavenge, tab vinaash hoga. -57 [WOT, LM, PM,CP]
=Even in Bhaktimarg, people think let us belong to ShivBaba. Hence they do kashi kalvat(sacrificing body in the name of Shiv). ...
[So Baba uses word ShivBaba even for Bhaktimarg or people use that word].
arey dear try to understand...in Bhaktimarg people believe in Shankar and there is no concept of ShivBaba....they do call Shankar as BABA(you can research on that...in Bhaktimarg Shankar IS CALLED AS BABA
) and baba says people in Bhaktimarg keep belief about ShivBaba....so it is clearly proved that ShivBaba and Shankar are one and the same in general terms....
10)SM 1-5-79(2):- Baba kahne se hi varse ki khushboo aati hai. Shiv KO HAMESHA Baba KAHA JATA HAI. ShivBaba hi sadgatidata hai. -57
= Shiv IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba!
i have answered same typical question above.....SHIV is renowned only in form of chitra that is of Shankar.....hence SHIV is always called as ShivBaba....or else how he would hear us without Chariot....?
11)SM 21-10-77(3):- Yah sab tumko koun samjhaa rahe hain? ShivBaba Brahma Dada KE BHRUKUTI KE BEECH MAY BAITH TUMKO SAMJHAATE HAIN. Jaise unki aaatmaa bhrukuti may baithee hai. Zaroor unkey baajoo may baithaa hogaa na. -76
=Who explains these to you? ShivBaba SITS IN FOREHEAD OF Brahma DAADAA and explains to you. Like his soul is seated at forehead. Definitely (even ShivBaba) would be seated just next to him, is it not?
[ShivBaba should be a point. Then only he can sit in forehead].
yes that is what i am saying....i have explained it earlier....goes again
when we say ShivBaba it is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal media...together they become ShivBaba...fully in control of SHIV....but the soul of corporeal Chariot(Ram) follows three stages.....saakari(corporeal),aakari(subtle) and nirakari(incorporeal)... when Ram's soul stays in stage other than SAKARI(corporeal) or when Ram plays a role of aakari(subtle-time of churning) and of nirakari(incorporeal-stage of Yaad),this practical stage of SHIV+BABA is termed as nirakara with no Chariot as such....which means stage of detachment from Chariot.....then who is called as Chariot owner at that time?....BRAHMA Dada Lekhraj is also studying in the permanent Chariot of SHIV.....so he is also sitting on same forehead....
15)SM 17-12-72(2):- Bhaktimarg may mehnat bahut karte hain. Milte hain bhugude(chane). ShivBaba par bhal Sharir bhi hom dete hain to bhi bhugude milti hai. Varsa to mil nahin sakta. Kashi kalvat khaate samay vikarm karke vinaash honge. Phir shuru ho jayenge. Toh bhaavanaa ke bhugude huye na.
= ....In Bhaktimarg, even if one sacrifices his body to ShivBaba, he will not get just groundnuts(hope translation is OK). One cannot get property. ...
[the word ShivBaba used in Bhaktimarg. In Bhaktimarg, Shiv has no body. So he is just a point]
16)SM 4-2-71(3):- Tum bachchon ko koun padhaa rahe hain? Vah nirakar ShivBaba.
=Who teaches you children? That incorporeal ShivBaba.
why it is said that 'VAH NIRAKAR..'...why not told that "MEIN PADA RAHA HOON"...?
17)SM 4-5-79(1):-Har cheez pahle satopradhan hoti hai. Bhakti bhi pahle satopradhan thi jab ShivBaba ko Yaad karte thay.
=Everything will be initially satopradhaan. Even Bhakti was satopradhaan when (devotees were) remembering ShivBaba.
[satopradhaan Bhakti means remembering/worshipping incorporeal, not the body(Baba calls worshipping body as bhoot pooja. So again ShivBaba means point].
....shiv ki pooja as point kabhi nahi hua....shiv is never ever worshipped as point in Bhaktimarg....instead SHIV was worshipped as LING....which is an identity of corporeal form of SHIV.....ling represents the male corporeal form....
18)SM 9-7-70(4):- Ram koyi patit_pavan thode hi hai. Haan, ShivBaba patit_pavan hai. Unko Yaad karna hai. ShivBaba hai hi sab atmaavon ka Baap.
= Ram is not patit-pavan. Yes, ShivBaba is patit-pavan. ShivBaba IS Father OF ALL THE SOULS.
....ShivBaba is patit pavan....and neither only bindi SHIV.....nor only corporeal permanent Chariot of Ram....together as ShivBaba they are patit pavan.....
19)SM 25-9-73(4):- Baap kitna beloved hai. Baap bachchon ko kitna love karte hain. Kitni khaatri karta hun. Phir bhi bachche chod dete hain. ... Phaarkati karne may deri nahin karte hain….. Main chitr to lagaavunga. Tumko Bruhaspati ki dasha hai. Zaroor dashayein badalti rahti hain. BapDada par to love chaahiye na. ShivBaba PAAS JAAVO, KHAAVO, PIVO, NIRAKAR KO BOLO HUMKO KHILAVO. UNKO HAATH KAHAAN SE AAYE. To baap se bahut love hona chahiye.
= How much beloved Father is! How much the Father loves children! Even then children leave Father. ... they do not take much time to divorce. ... one should have love towards BapDada, is it not? GET NEAR TO ShivBaba, EAT, DRINK. TELL THE INCORPOREAL TO FEED YOU. Where is hand for him? ...
....that is what i am asking...unko haath kaha se aaya....?....that means it is said to ShivBaba not to SHIV....
20)SM 5-11-73(1):- 5 vikar stree may, 5 vikar purush may yahi Ravan sampraday huye. To yah NAYI bat huyi na. Swarg bananevala hai P Paramatma. Jisko Ram kahte hain. Narak bananevala hai Ravan. Ravan ka chitr banakar varsh2 jalate hain. Manushy marta hai tho phir thode hi unka epheeji dekhne may aayega. Vah atma jakar doosra sharir leti hain. (GM). Features aadi badal jate hain. Yah to Ravan ko vahi features varsh2 banate aur jalate hain. VASTAV MAY JAISE NIRAKAR ShivBaba HAI, UNKA KOYI FEATURES NAHIN. Vaise Ravan ka bhi koyi features nahin hain. Yah to vikar hai. 
= ....In fact, like the incorporeal ShivBaba does not have any feature, even Ravan also does not have any features. This is vices.
so what do you want to say from this?
26)SM 26-2-77(1,2):- Ghadi2 apne ko dehi abhimaani samjho. Tab Baap ko bhi Yaad kar sako. Aise baap ke saath badaa regard se chalnaa pade. Parantu saadhaaran hone kaaran vo regard nahin rahtaa. Samajhte bhi hain vo kaalon kaa kaal hai. YAH ShivBaba JISKO BAAPDAADAA KAHTE HO YAH SABKO SAATH le jaavenge. Kitnaa unkaa bhaari part hai. Sabse oonch te oonch part milaa huvaa hai. Jisko saari duniyaa Yaad kartee hai. Atma kyaa cheez hai. Atma ko to jaan_naa chahiye na. -80
= At every step consider yourself to be soul conscious. One should have very high regard with such a Father. But since he is ordinary, (children) do not keep that regard. (Children) know that he is kaalon kaa kaal(= death of deaths). This ShivBaba to whom you call BapDada, this will take all together. How great his part is!
Note:- Sometimes Baba says in Murli- apne ko atma samajh ek baap ko Yaad karo. = Consider yourself as soul and remember one Father.
Sometimes Baba says- remember ShivBaba.
understand the point ShivBaba who is called BAAPDADA.....plzzz explain me your views...
for rest i think i had answered for similar typ of questions....
So does not this mean both Baap and ShivBaba are one and the same? Or does not it mean there is no need to differentiate them at least in remembrance? If they are different, then how can our remembrance be stable?[/color][/quote]