Queries to PBKs by mbbhat

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mbbhat
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Queries to PBKs by mbbhat

Post by mbbhat » 01 Jun 2010

In BKs faith is developed without support of Murlis or lowkik scriptures. One listens to seven days course and it is the cause for development of faith in BKs.

Murlis help strengthening of faith in BKs.

But PBKs need support of Murlis to develop faith! They do not have any independent theory to teach and practice! But still they call their knowledge as advanced knowledge.

I have heard from a pbk that for PBKs Sakar Murlis are just as good as Bhaktimarg scriptures for BKs. Is this correct? If so, then why they cannot teach their philosophy without Murlis and BKWSU, etc. I do not say they should not relate to Murlis (like BKs give examples of Bhaktimarg scriptures). But my question is why even during beginning they need support of Murlis?

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Who is gyaani tu aatmaa (knowledgeful soul)?

Post by mbbhat » 15 Jun 2010

Will any PBK (or anyone else) explain what are signs of gyaani tu atma?

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How PBKs unknowingly acknowledge their defeat?

Post by mbbhat » 15 Jun 2010

1. PBK believe title of Father goes to his first/best child.

They agree that in drama title of sermonizer of Gita is put on Dada Lekhraj.

But they do not agree Brahma Baba is the first/best child of ShivBaba!
----- ----

2.
a pbk wrote:- (ak1972 soul wrote)

When you have hardly understood the basic point of Purity, there is no use of continuing discussion with you,sincere request first follow purity, then start your discussion.

Brahma Baba had/has 100% dharna.

Brahma Baba's intellect is baby intellect= lacks knowledge
so here PBKs believe better the purity/dhanra, better capacity to imbibe knowledge.

but they say- Brahma Baba's dharna is perfect but his knowledge is poor!

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Re: Who is gyaani tu aatmaa (knowledgeful soul)?

Post by Sach_Khand » 16 Jun 2010

mbbhat wrote:Will any PBK (or anyone else) explain what are signs of gyaani tu atma?
It is said in Avyakt Vanisthat (in Hindi) Jo raaz ko jaanate ve na-raaz naheen hote.
those who knows the secret (I think that means the knowledge) will not become frustrated (correct translation?).
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Who is gyaani tu aatmaa (knowledgeful soul)?

Post by mbbhat » 17 Jun 2010

Thank you dear soul.

I have read a wonderful Murli point. I am not finding it now. I will post it when I get.

Till there let us see whether PBKs try to put their views.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by arjun » 17 Jun 2010

Om Shanti. It is wrong to say that BKs do not take the support of Hindu scriptures to explain their knowledge. The basic concepts like the soul, the Supreme Soul, the Trimurti, the four ages, rajyog, etc. have been taken from Hindu scriptures. Almost the entire terminology used by them is from the Hindu scriptures. BKs refer to the Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Sikh scriptures. The only difference is that the BKs/PBKs interpret those concepts and terms in a different way.

As regards the advanced knowledge, it is basically for the BKs. Therefore, reference to the Murlis is important. But there are numerous PBKs who were never BKs in this life. And many of them have understood the BK and PBK knowledge better than the BKs/PBKs. Moreover, the BKs do not have any copyright over Murlis. Murlis are words of God which cannot be copyrighted.

Nobody is forcing anyone to accept the PBK knowledge, but the above member (mbbhat) seems to be bent upon arguing with the PBKs to prove as if we are forcing him to accept this knowledge. Yet, if he prefers to follow the path of arguement, I wish him all the best.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by mbbhat » 18 Jun 2010

Arjun soul wrote- It is wrong to say that BKs do not take the support of Hindu scriptures to explain their knowledge. The basic concepts like the soul, the Supreme Soul, the Trimurti, the four ages, rajyog, etc. have been taken from Hindu scriptures.
1)To explain concept of soul and Supreme Soul, BKs do not depend on any Hindu scriptures. Even to explain Rajyog, BKs do not depend on anything. To give extra knowledge they may give examples. That is all.

2)In My profile in this forum, it is written- " I am a BK and a writer. I have been benifited a lot by The Knowledge given in BK institution. I know problems of others who have negative understandings about the BKs. I have materials written totally on logic without BK interefering. You can go through. Then you can guage me".

Please note the underlined words.

3)But PBKs cannot begin without BKWSU, Dada Lekhraj at all! Does not this indicate PBKs are totally handicapped


3)FYKI, BKs teach many things like self management, stress managemnet, etc. which are independent.

Almost the entire terminology used by them is from the Hindu scriptures. BKs refer to the Gita, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Sikh scriptures. The only difference is that the BKs/PBKs interpret those concepts and terms in a different way.
4)no. They use everything, from every religion. Even film songs are used. Many things about Islam, Christianity is also discussed. not only that - even political things are also spoken in Murlis.
As regards the advanced knowledge, it is basically for the BKs. Therefore, reference to the Murlis is important.
5)this is what i say- Even though most of BKs are from hinduism, BKWSU do not depend on Hindu scriptures to give them knowledge as much as PBKs depend on Murlis to give them (the so called) advance knowledge.

Did not you catch my point?
But there are numerous PBKs who were never BKs in this life.
6)This is something really great. will you explain the steps the new souls pass in this process? do you give the same basic course (as taught in BKWSU) first to them or directly give them knowledge of pbk philosophy?

you see- the point here is- suppose say a Christian comes to take knowledge of BK philosophy. BKs do not depend on bible to teach him about BK philosophy. similarly they do not depend on Quran for a Muslim.

the seven days course in BKWSU is common for any new comer. There is no need for the person to pass/churn once again through his own old religion to understand bk principle.

but for AIVV, it is impossible to make anyone as pbk directly just by advanced knowledge. they have to pass thorugh Murlis and/or the same seven days course of BKWSU. [If I am wrong, i will take my words back].
And many of them have understood the BK and PBK knowledge better than the BKs/PBKs
7)How can you say so? what is the proof? Is it not clearly seen in this forum how even PBKs also mis interpreted Murli points and many many points are still unanswered by even senior PBKs like you?
Moreover, the BKs do not have any copyright over Murlis. Murlis are words of God which cannot be copyrighted.
8)I did not say so. Why do you question so? Also is any religious knowledge copywritten?
Nobody is forcing anyone to accept the PBK knowledge,...
Nobody said so. Why are you saying like this? Please answer to the point. that is enough. But it is OK to me. this is just a suggestion.

Dear soul, if you say- I should not question PBKs like this.

FYKI- The material developed by PBKs to give advanced knowledge to BKs does much more criticisms and puts questions than what i am questioning PBKs here.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by arjun » 18 Jun 2010

Om Shanti. Non-BKs who come to AIVV are initially given knowledge which is a mixture of both basic and advanced knowledge. I mean to say some portions of basic knowledge which PBKs agree and some basics of advance knowledge. When they become conversant with the knowledge they are given the advance knowledge course. Then they have to undergo seven days bhatti like any other newcomer.

It is believed in the advanced knowledge that the non-BKs who become PBKs in this life without becoming a BK had been BKs in the previous life or at least had obtained the message about God's incarnation in Sindh, Pakistan in the early days of the Yagya.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by mbbhat » 19 Jun 2010

Non-BKs who come to AIVV are initially given knowledge which is a mixture of both basic and advanced knowledge.
This is what i say- PBKs cannot proceed independently without support of basic course of BKs.

So I think in this case, do you give them advance knowledge ahead of Sakar muris?

Can you give them whole of the advance knowledge without touching Sakar Murlis of BKs?

Thank you for the response.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by arjun » 20 Jun 2010

Om Shanti. First thing the BKs should understand is that the knowledge propagated by them is not their own property or anything invented by them. It is a knowledge given by Supreme Father Shiv. There is still a controversy over the person in whom He entered first. BKs and PBKs have different beliefs about that. And it is yet to be proved based on exact history of the Yagya. So, BKs cannot claim that they have copyright over God's knowledge. And if someone like the above Member is under this impression, he can well continue to live in an imaginative world.

The above Member says that PBKs cannot proceed without using Sakar Murlis. Can BKs start giving actual BK knowledge (not the Management courses which many other religious organizations are offering) without using the words like Shiv, Trimurti, Srishti Chakra, the four Ages, etc. etc. which were in use much before the revelation of ShivBaba's part?

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by Sach_Khand » 20 Jun 2010

arjun wrote: The above Member says that PBKs cannot proceed without using Sakar Murlis. Can BKs start giving actual BK knowledge (not the Management courses which many other religious organizations are offering) without using the words like Shiv, Trimurti, Srishti Chakra, the four Ages, etc. etc. which were in use much before the revelation of ShivBaba's part?
I think that the question here is not just the words Shiv, Trimurti or Srishti chakra etc.,
The question here is that without accepting Dada Lekharaj's part and the words spoken through him by Shiv, PBKs cannot proceed.

About whom Shiv first entered. It can never be proved. Murli itself says that no one can give the date and time of when Shiv came. It is really amazing that PBKs give date and time of when Shiv entered. They pinpoint the date and time (although not actual) indirectly by saying that when Dada Lekharaj went and told about his sakshatkars to a women and when that women told it to some sevakram then Shiv entered and gave clarifications through Sevakram. This is too much.
Murlis says different things. It is clearly said in Murlis that Dada Lekharaj did not understand the sakshatkars and no one explaind them to him but he understood like everyone else through the Murlis slowly.

Virendra Dev Dixit never even accepts directly that yes he is that Sevakram and he is Prajapita.
All these things makes advance knowledge doubtlful.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by arjun » 20 Jun 2010

Om Shanti. At this stage we cannot say whether the Yagya history can be proved or not. The Confluence Age is not yet over and who knows what kind of proofs about the Yagya history are yet to emerge!!!!

PBKs never pinpointed any date, month, year for Shiv's entry. They have just presented a theory that Shiv did not enter in Dada Lekhraj first, but in his partner's body and gave clarifications. It is the BKs who pinpoint Shiv's entry saying that when Dada Lekhraj's daughter-in-law went to see him in his room she saw red light and that Shiv had entered in her Father-in-law and that Dada Lekhraj uttered some Sanskrit words. There is no proof for all this in the Murlis. Moreover, it is the BKs who celebrate Shivratri as Shivjayanti thinking that Shiv entered in Dada Lekhraj on that day and just like the people of the path of Bhakti, they celebrate it every year with many kinds of rituals like Bhog, flag hoisting, cake cutting, etc.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by Sach_Khand » 20 Jun 2010

Sach_Khand wrote: It is clearly said in Murlis that Dada Lekharaj did not understand the sakshatkars and no one explained them to him but he understood like everyone else through the Murlis slowly.
I am giving the Murli point here.
Murli Dt. 1.4.85, pg. 3:
"Baap khud batate hain maine kaha tha main sadharan boodhe tan mein aata hoon. Aakar tumko padhata hoon. Yah bhee sunte hain, attention toh hamaare oopar hai. Yah bhee student hai. Yah apne ko aur kuchh naheen kahate. Prajapita so bhee student hai. Bhal isne vinaash bhee dekha parantu samjhaa kuchh bhee naheen. Aahiste aahiste samajhte gaye. Jaise tum saamajhte jaate ho. Baap tumko samjhaate hai. Beech main yah bhee samajhte jaate hain. Padhte rahate hain."
I think the above Murli point makes it clear that no one gave explanation to Dada Lekharaj about his divine visions. Why is it told in advanced knowledge by Virendra Dev Dixit that Sevakram (or Shiv through Sevakram) gave explanation. Is this not a lie according to the above Murli point?
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by Sach_Khand » 20 Jun 2010

arjun wrote: PBKs never pinpointed any date, month, year for Shiv's entry. They have just presented a theory that Shiv did not enter in Dada Lekhraj first, but in his partner's body and gave clarifications.
No. PBKs are not just presenting a theory but challenging the BKs.
whether directly or indirectly, PBKs are actually telling about a unknown date and time of when Shiv "FIRST ENTERED" into a body.
arjun wrote: It is the BKs who pinpoint Shiv's entry saying that when Dada Lekhraj's daughter-in-law went to see him in his room she saw red light and that Shiv had entered in her Father-in-law and that Dada Lekhraj uttered some Sanskrit words.
Two wrongs does not make one correct. If BKs are wrong then what are you doing?
Moreever, if it is true then too that does not in any way tells that it was the first entry into a human body. And they do not use it as a proof to challenge the world that Shiv first entered into a human body on such and such a date into Dada Lekharaj.
arjun wrote: There is no proof for all this in the Murlis. Moreover, it is the BKs who celebrate Shivratri as Shivjayanti thinking that Shiv entered in Dada Lekhraj on that day and just like the people of the path of Bhakti, they celebrate it every year with many kinds of rituals like Bhog, flag hoisting, cake cutting, etc.
Please do not argue just for the sake of arguing.
BKs celebrate Shivratri on the date of Bhaktimarg's Shivratri just as a yaadgar as they celebrate Krishna janmashtami and Christmas and New year and Raksha Bandhan. There is no more importance to it other than celebrating a Bhaktimarg day as an apportunity to give knowledge to the people.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Queries to PBKs by mbbhat.

Post by mbbhat » 21 Jun 2010

Arjun soul wrote- First thing the BKs should understand is that The Knowledge propagated by them is not their own property or anything invented by them.
Dear Soul, They never say they have copyright. But Murli itself says- it should not be given to those who do not believe in it (OK- BKs assume that one should believe it in BKWSU way).

Actually it is PBKs's comments which say- Murli is copyright of BKs and PBKs = they believe all the Murli points are about BKs and PBKs.

Still they say Murlis should be made public.
1)It is a knowledge given by Supreme Father Shiv. 2)There is still a controversy over the person in whom He entered first. BKs and PBKs have different beliefs about that. And it is yet to be proved based on exact history of the Yagya.
1)How can you say so? What is the proof? (forget for the time that BKs believe it).

2)Do PBKs also really believe have controversy or say it is Sevakram?

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