Search for Answers.

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by arjun » 01 Jan 2011

anu wrote:Two months have passed since I posted the questions for search in this section. When I posted them, Arjun wrote that he may get answers from Baba. Now I uderstand that he did not receive any answer.
Anu,
I have already stated that I have communicated your questions to Baba and he wanted to know your identity (which will not be revealed on this forum). As you were/are not ready to reveal your identity either directly or indirectly to Baba, you should not hope for answers from Baba. If I happen to meet him anytime in future I will convey your views personally, but that may take months or years as I don't know when I will meet him personally.
Does AIVV too, like BK, use cult practices?
I don't think so. Had it been so, Baba would not have taken pains to answer the questions posted by you on this site on the same day they were conveyed to him.
As intimated to you through a private mail, I happened to discus almost all the questions with Baba sitting in a train at night on the very next day you posted these questions as I was with Baba on a short tour at that time and took a printout of your questions. Had he any kind of fear he would not have discussed these questions in front of general public sitting in the train. Unfortunately I did not know how to record the conversation on my mobile. I recorded it in some bits. But before I could transfer the recording to my PC my mobile was stolen and along with it even the partial recording was gone. But I have already posted Baba's answers to the extent I remembered. But as this may not be the correct way of conveying his words I posted them as my answers.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 01 Jan 2011

Dear Arjun

I did not noticed that the answers send by you come all together from Baba. Reading them I thought that it was you who tried to answer them. What a shame! For me they were written in a very personal human way ("I think..."; "In my opinion...")

I am not afraid to reveal my identity in this forum (Tharun Mitthal, Delhi; working in the Middle East at present time). I simply did not do it, becasue it is not the tradition of the forum. I commented in this issue sometimes ago, when Sach Khand wrote incognito some information that may be abusive for Baba Virendra Dev Dixit without providing any clear evidence. I find this practice harmful.

The other reason for not revealing my ID was that I do not like people setting conditions like this. You ask me to reveal my ID in the name of Baba, while you keep your ID hidden. Baba gathers all our data along with our photos, but he himself never shows his ID card and never reveals his ID along with the place of living and other details. This is not fair; the rules are not equal and I do not like it and this is my form of protest against it.
If I happen to meet him anytime in future I will convey your views personally, but that may take months or years as I don't know when I will meet him personally.
I think it is not necessary any more. If he has been unable to answer the simple set of questions sent to him few times directly by few students in almost 2 years, why shall they beg for answers more? This way of his teaching and dealing with students influenced very negatively two of my friends from the west. Both were dedicated Baba's children for years, at least they appeared to me like that. I met each of them when they were in Delhi and we had done some wonderful work. I saw them spending every minute on Baba's work. I saw their dedication in spreading Baba's knowledge. I witnessed how Baba dealed with their emotions and questions for almost 2 years. They did not receive explanation of their querries, but the instruction not to believe in what they found out, becasue whatever Baba says is true. Please, let's think, Is this the way of teaching that supports intellect? For me not. And it doesn't differ from what happens in BK which Baba criticises so much saying that this is their way of dealing with inquisitive students. I am sorry to say this, this kind of treating people doesn't differ much from what the most cruel cult leaders in the world do. The result of what happened is such that one of those students recently spent few months undergoing a psychiatric therapy after an emotional breakdown and the other one has fallen in frustration and depression for months because her family was broken and life completely ruined after years of dedicating everything to Baba.
Does AIVV too, like BK, use cult practices?


I don't think so. Had it been so, Baba would not have taken pains to answer the questions posted by you on this site on the same day they were conveyed to him.
I accept your point of view. I am afraid that your opinion may be wrong. I find quite a few characteristics of cult practices present in AIVV and I do worry because of this. Would you like me to post my observations with substantial examples?

Those answers which you posted do not fully answer the questions. They sound artificial and shallow, and do not bring anything new from what was already taught before and reagarding to what those questions were asked.The most vital questions have been left without answers - just like previously. I find this to be a dishonest practice. This practice can be found in cult groups. The leader has to take pains, as you said, to answer the simplest and most fundamental things which create the basis of his teaching; he has no time; he is too busy; he is unavailable; the time is not ready yet; after all what the leader says is always true and only true, so why to ask at all anything; he repeats the same phrases no matter what aspect of the issue is questioned; the time will bring answers and so on.

And the very basic question to which the teacher does not answer is: How Sevakram along with Dada's sister were the adopted parents of Nirmalshanta, how was Sevakram the husband of Dada's sister and some other woman; how was he the member of Om Mandali; how was he the member of Anti Om Mandali and few other important issues - while completely contradictory facts have been brought to light. These issues concern the core of the AIVV teachings, yet the teacher and the author choses the path of not answering directly and not explaining the problem. This is beyond of my understanding.

I wish you all the best. I do disagree with such practices. I find them harmful, dishonest and manipulative.

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by arjun » 01 Jan 2011

anu wrote:I did not noticed that the answers send by you come all together from Baba. Reading them I thought that it was you who tried to answer them. What a shame! For me they were written in a very personal human way ("I think..."; "In my opinion...")
I have already written that since I did not have the exact script of Baba's replies, I posted the answers in my own words and therefore posted them as my own answers and not as Baba's answers. There is nothing to be shameful about it.
anu wrote:I am not afraid to reveal my identity in this forum (Tharun Mitthal, Delhi; working in the Middle East at present time). I simply did not do it, because it is not the tradition of the forum. I commented in this issue sometimes ago, when Sach Khand wrote incognito some information that may be abusive for Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit without providing any clear evidence. I find this practice harmful.
The other reason for not revealing my ID was that I do not like people setting conditions like this. You ask me to reveal my ID in the name of Baba, while you keep your ID hidden. Baba gathers all our data along with our photos, but he himself never shows his ID card and never reveals his ID along with the place of living and other details. This is not fair; the rules are not equal and I do not like it and this is my form of protest against it.
I did not ask you to reveal your identity on this Forum. I requested you to either reveal your identity to Baba through email or to me through email so that I could convey the information to Baba. And even that request was based on Baba's directions and it was not at all my personal request. I am not interested in anybody's identity on this forum. Just because you wanted answers from Baba I conveyed your questions to him and his directions to you. It is upto you to accept or reject them.

Since you have revealed your identity, we have to believe it to be true, but if you don't mind, I would like to say that even this information may not be verifiable. And my heart (if you believe me) says that this is not your true identity. You have denied to many members of this forum but I can feel from my heart that you are not a brother but a sister and not an Indian but a native of some other country) The way you have revealed your name - Tharun Mitthal - itself reveals that you are not a north Indian that your name suggests because any north Indian will not spell it this way - it is spelt as Tarun Mittal. Anyway, as I said, I have to believe that you have revealed your true information and I will continue to treat you as a brother on this forum. The above analysis of your name does not mean that I want you to reveal your true name or identity. I never wanted you to reveal your identity on this forum nor will I ever ask for it.

Since I do not believe the above identity to be completely true I cannot convey the same to Baba. Anyway, by identity he means complete name and address and phone number. I once again request you that if you want answers to your questions you may kindly write to Baba directly. I do not want to be involved between you and Baba. And I hope this matter ends here.
I think it is not necessary any more. If he has been unable to answer the simple set of questions sent to him few times directly by few students in almost 2 years, why shall they beg for answers more? This way of his teaching and dealing with students influenced very negatively two of my friends from the west. Both were dedicated Baba's children for years, at least they appeared to me like that. I met each of them when they were in Delhi and we had done some wonderful work. I saw them spending every minute on Baba's work. I saw their dedication in spreading Baba's knowledge. I witnessed how Baba dealed with their emotions and questions for almost 2 years. They did not receive explanation of their querries, but the instruction not to believe in what they found out, becasue whatever Baba says is true. Please, let's think, Is this the way of teaching that supports intellect? For me not. And it doesn't differ from what happens in BK which Baba criticises so much saying that this is their way of dealing with inquisitive students. I am sorry to say this, this kind of treating people doesn't differ much from what the most cruel cult leaders in the world do. The result of what happened is such that one of those students recently spent few months undergoing a psychiatric therapy after an emotional breakdown and the other one has fallen in frustration and depression for months because her family was broken and life completely ruined after years of dedicating everything to Baba.
I am sorry to know this and would definitely convey your feelings to Baba whenever I meet/talk to him.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 01 Jan 2011

I did not ask you to reveal your identity on this Forum. I requested you to either reveal your identity to Baba through email or to me through email so that I could convey the information to Baba. And even that request was based on Baba's directions and it was not at all my personal request. I am not interested in anybody's identity on this forum. Just because you wanted answers from Baba I conveyed your questions to him and his directions to you. It is upto you to accept or reject them.

Since you have revealed your identity, we have to believe it to be true, but if you don't mind, I would like to say that even this information may not be verifiable. And my heart (if you believe me) says that this is not your true identity. You have denied to many members of this forum but I can feel from my heart that you are not a Brother but a Sister and not an Indian but a native of some other country) The way you have revealed your name - Tharun Mitthal - itself reveals that you are not a north Indian that your name suggests because any north Indian will not spell it this way - it is spelt as Tarun Mittal. Anyway, as I said, I have to believe that you have revealed your true information and I will continue to treat you as a Brother on this forum. The above analysis of your name does not mean that I want you to reveal your true name or identity. I never wanted you to reveal your identity on this forum nor will I ever ask for it.

Since I do not believe the above identity to be completely true I cannot convey the same to Baba. Anyway, by identity he means complete name and address and phone number. I once again request you that if you want answers to your questions you may kindly write to Baba directly. I do not want to be involved between you and Baba. And I hope this matter ends here.

Dear Arjun

I will sincerely tell you what I think - what you wrote souds crazy.

FIrst, you yourself said that you will get the answers from Baba. I informed you that Baba knows IDs of all students who individually, directly by e-mails wrote to him few times and he did not answered them. Among those IDs was also mine. So, I don't understand why Baba wants my ID from you, if he already has my full ID sent by myself to him many times. Do you belong to those chosen ones who are allowed to know secrets of others? Please, let's be frank. Let's make thiongs clear - I did not post those questions here with hope that Baba will descend somehow to the forum and explain them. Those questions have already reached him directly few times and he did not answer. The final form of the list which I posted in the forum was prepared by one of the foreign students with whom I exchange views on gyaan. The same student delivered the list directly to Baba and I posted it here.

Second, you say that "we" (I don't know who) have to believe. Then you say that you don't believe. Then you build a story on the spelling... Please think about searching machines and those who are in contact with me via them. I work also as a public person and people contact me through the Internet. Okey, fine; I don't mind. But, for the sake of communication could you be more single minded? Please ask direct questions. I will answer them. I don't care indeed. I have nothing to hide and honestly saying this idea of gopanshilta (गोपनशीलता) sounds sick to me. Would you like me to send my e-mail ID here along with the telephone number and SKYPE? I can take responsibility for what I say in the open field. If you have doubts please, ask me open questions, don't speculate, don't make assumptions (like that in the story of spelling) and justification of your attitude (like that of believing, not believing; maybe it surprised you that someone doesn't care of himself and hiding behind nicknames). Where and when I told you that I was born and educated in North India or that I am a North Indian, so that you could assume it as you did? I haven't written anything about my mother, Father, family, place of birth, education, social background. Yet, you immediately made assumptions based on three pieces information.
You have denied to many members of this forum...y
How many and who was it. Please reveal facts. No one apart from you asked me for revealing ID. The user named "SKY" wrote to me a strange letter two days ago. The letter was like a kind of blackmail. I couldn't understand what he really wants from me. Reading his letter to me I felt like in a cult group, where people insinuate the others strange things.
...but I can feel from my heart that you are not a Brother but a Sister and not an Indian but a native of some other country...
This sounds really strange or maybe funny to me. I cannot do much about your feelings. I too have some feelings about you. I remove them repeatedly, so that they don't influence me. I repeat to myself that until I ask you directly proper questions and have a set of facts my feelings are only an illusion.

I would like to know on the basis of what you think so? Which country? Does the nickname ANU have such an impact on you? Do you have similar assumption about someone else too? I would love to understand the case, indeed, with all my heart. It will add a lot to my experience.

By the way, to make things clear, ANU अणु is for "atom".

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 01 Jan 2011

कुसुमस्तबकस्येव द्वयी वृत्तिर्मनस्विन:।

मूर्ध्नि वा सर्वलोकस्य विशीर्येत वनेऽथवा॥ :cool: ;-)

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Re: Search for Answers.

Post by arjun » 02 Jan 2011

Anu,
I would like to repeat that I do not want you to reveal your identity either on this forum or through email. I neither wanted you to do so in the past nor will I ask you in future. I hoped in my previous post that the discussion would end there, but you have made many more further comments. I do not wish to take this discussion any further.
OGS,
Arjun

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Facts about Hyderabad Sindh versus AK teaching

Post by ANU » 04 Jan 2011

Hyderabad, Sindh is presented in AK as the city with the population over 900 000 citizens around 1936. AK teaches that all 900 000 souls which are ancestors of the world population (450 000 parents surviving the and 450 000 children born from them at the beginning of the Golden Age). The teacher in AIVV declared that all those souls were born in Sindh Hyderabad and all of them met with the soul palying the role of Prajapita there, in the very beginning of the Yagya. He said that the population of Hyderabad, Sindh was 900 000 in 1930-ties.


Facts:
Sindh Hyderabad
Population Dynamics. The earliest population count was in 1808, when the city had
15,000 people. By 1942 it had grown to about 137,000. Another almost 100,000 were added
in the next decade,
and it doubled again to over 400,000 by 1961. Its last census was in 1981
when its population numbered 970,000;
it is projected to reach 1.4 million by the end of this
decade.* Its estimated growth rate of 3.6 percent per year is just above the overall national
growth rate of 3.1 percent, but below the urban growth rate of 4.8 percent. The city’s
administrative area has doubled from 25 to 55 square kilometers since 1971, but the Greater
Hyderabad Master plan covers a built up area of about 140 square kilometers.
Like the rest of the country, its rapid growth comes from the lowered mortality and
sustained high fertility. Although Pakistan was the world’s second country to adopt an official
policy to reduce population growth through reducing fertility, its national family planning
program has made little progress. The city’s contraceptive prevalence rate is only 20 percent,
just slightly above the overall national rate of 12 percent. The total fertility rate is 5.4, just
below the overall national average of 6.1, and the city's population continues to grow at 3.1
percent per year. The aim of the family planning program is to reduce the growth rate to 2.7
percent by 1998.

* It was estimated at the time teh author was writting the article. Acc to the statistics in 2000 the population of Hyderabad Sindh was 1,348,288.

Source: http://www.auick.org/database/ids/ids02/Hyderabad.pdf

Map of Sindh
Pakistan_Sindh.PNG
The population of the entire Sindh province in 1951 was 6,047,748, among them 29.23% was urban (1 767 756 people living in all cities in Sindh).

There is a vast difference between 900 000 declared in AK and 137 000 in statistics (763 000 people are missing). The mistake = 82%.

Does it matter?

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by arjun » 04 Jan 2011

I think the number "nine lakhs" in the beginning of the Yagya refers to the number of souls who received the basic message that God has come. Well, that number must not have been restricted just to the Hyderabad city of Sindh province or the Sindh Province but must have extended much beyond it.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by ANU » 04 Jan 2011

I think the number "nine lakhs" in the beginning of the Yagya refers to the number of souls who received the basic message that God has come. Well, that number must not have been restricted just to the Hyderabad city of Sindh province or the Sindh Province but must have extended much beyond it.


Baba in his classes stated clearly that population of Hyderabad at that time was 900 000 and all the 900 000 were there in Hyderabad at the very beginning, before the Yagya moved to Karachi. I do not understand why you delute facts and assume things which Baba did not say. Cult groups often reveal the characteristic which I observe in the above and few others of your posts. This characteristic displays itself in repeatedly changing the explanation of the meaning of the guru's words, depending on situation. Some new facts have come to light which show the guru's theory in an unfavorable light and the guru himself along with his followers change the explanation. Would you like AIVV works in the same way? I don't like.

I emphasise taking full responsibility for what I am writing - Baba spoke clearly few times that 900 000 was the population of Hyderabad at the beginning of the Yagya. The same thing some students heard during the Advance Course.


900 000 could not have received the basic message that God had come - this cannot be proved at present time. First , it has not been confirmed by any accessible literature about the Yagya. Second, they had no means to spread the message to so many people. Third, acc. to what we know about the Yagya it was the time of struggles, not service and only newspapers spread hostile articles affairs taking place in the Yagya among the local community. To read and understand newspapers one needs to be litterate. The ration of illiteracy in Pakistan today was counted appr. 70%. We may expect that it could be much higher it 1930-ties. Moreover, I think we should remember that we are talking about 30-ties when newspapers exert influence mostly in cities. Villiagies, countryside were illiteracy rate was higher than that in cities received much less impact from them.

Another important fact which may influence the overall counting and conclusions is that only a part of population in Hyderabad and Sindh was Sindhi. A part was Muslim speaking Urdu. I do not have any data which I could present here.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by arjun » 05 Jan 2011

I do not understand why you delute facts and assume things which Baba did not say.....The same thing some students heard during the Advance Course.
Just as you have heard it from Baba, I have also heard it in a discussion. And why do you repeatedly speak about an imaginary group or research team that you are a member of when we do not have any proof of the same? Let the other members of your group come and speak for themselves on this forum. Nobody has stopped them from becoming members. Speaking on behalf of a group will not lend substance to your claims.
900 000 could not have received the basic message that God had come - this cannot be proved at present time. First , it has not been confirmed by any accessible literature about the Yagya. Second, they had no means to spread the message to so many people. Third, acc. to what we know about the Yagya it was the time of struggles, not service and only newspapers spread hostile articles affairs taking place in the Yagya among the local community. To read and understand newspapers one needs to be litterate. The ration of illiteracy in Pakistan today was counted appr. 70%. We may expect that it could be much higher it 1930-ties. Moreover, I think we should remember that we are talking about 30-ties when newspapers exert influence mostly in cities. Villiagies, countryside were illiteracy rate was higher than that in cities received much less impact from them.

Another important fact which may influence the overall counting and conclusions is that only a part of population in Hyderabad and Sindh was Sindhi. A part was Muslim speaking Urdu. I do not have any data which I could present here.
May be you take everything in a literal sense. The message that God has come could have been spread even through the word of the mouth rather than just newspapers. I once asked Baba Virendra Dev Dixit about a Murli point that says that it was published in America (in the beginning of the Yagya) that there is a Baba who needs 16000 queens. I asked Baba Virendra Dev Dixit whether all those who read that newspaper be counted among 9 lakh initial population? He said no. He said only those who got the news that God has come will be counted among 9 lakhs. Well that news about God's arrival in India could have spread even beyond the boundaries of Sindh to other provinces of India.

Being Muslim does not prevent anyone from getting the news about God's arrival. And is it necessary that a Muslim will take rebirth only as a Muslim? He can become a BK/PBK in the next birth.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by cal » 05 Jan 2011

ANU wrote: Baba spoke clearly few times that 900 000 was the population of Hyderabad at the beginning of the Yagya. The same thing some students heard during the Advance Course.
arjun wrote:Let the other members of your group come and speak for themselves on this forum
I do not know ANU. However, I interpreted the population of Hyderabad the same way that ANU did.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by ANU » 05 Jan 2011

May be you take everything in a literal sense. The message that God has come could have been spread even through the word of the mouth rather than just newspapers.
I reflect on Murlis in both senses, their ordinary sense and metaphorical sense. I think that I someone uses numbers like 5000 years of the drama or 900 000 population in Hyderabad, 1942 as the date of birth, he does it because those numbers mean something substantial. Numbers may be verified. Before the war, the means of communication and transportation were much less developed than today. At the present time the message reaches people with difficulty through the means of both word of mouth and media. Dozens of years took BKs to spread the message among 900 000 (as they declared). I think that the message could not have reached 900 000 by the means you mentioned.
I asked Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit whether all those who read that newspaper be counted among 9 lakh initial population? He said no. He said only those who got the news that God has come will be counted among 9 lakhs. Well that news about God's arrival in India could have spread even beyond the boundaries of Sindh to other provinces of India.
This is another example, for me, that the information in AK contradicts each other. I heard Baba saying in classes that the message in Hyderabad spread in both positive and negative form and no matter which message someone received he counts as one of 900 000. The same was taught during the advanced course.
Being Muslim does not prevent anyone from getting the news about God's arrival.
I mentioned the Muslim population to remind of the fact that they might not have read those news wrote in English or Sindhi; the word of mouth has much less impact among groups so different as Muslims and Sindhis.


I think that one of the greatest weakness of AK lies in not taking reasponsibility for words and their meanings. Sometimes AK says something about one issue and sometimes it says something else about the same aspect of the issue and later on those who point at contradictios receive the explanation that this is the unlimited knowledge. This is not what the unlimited knowledge lies in, in my opinion. I have an impression that AK calls changing meanings and changing explanations of the same things - 'unlimited knowledge'.

The unlimited knowledge for me, is what man hasn't been able to achieve in the history and what he openly admits sayig 'we cannot see the objective truth about the world; we can only notice some manifestations; we cannot find that one, unchangeable picture of the whole.'

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sidh versus AK teaching

Post by arjun » 05 Jan 2011

Dozens of years took BKs to spread the message among 900 000 (as they declared).
They might have started making calculations only after shifting to India. In Sindh, Pakistan, the gathering was so small and new that they might not have even thought about making calculations as to how many members received their message from the day one. Are you not making a wrong assumption based on declarations of BKs who have not declared the correct date of Brahma Baba's date of birth so far?
I heard Baba saying in classes that the message in Hyderabad spread in both positive and negative form and no matter which message someone received he counts as one of 900 000. The same was taught during the advanced course.
I will have to confirm this from Baba or the head office.
the word of mouth has much less impact among groups so different as Muslims and Sindhis.
I cannot digest this. News spreads everywhere irrespective of the community.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sindh versus AK teaching

Post by ANU » 05 Jan 2011

I will have to confirm this from Baba or the head office.
For me the recorded classes are eveident proof of inconsistency and contradictions.
the word of mouth has much less impact among groups so different as Muslims and Sindhis.

I cannot digest this. News spreads everywhere irrespective of the community.
The incident of God's coming happened in the Sindhi communities. The exchange of news on religious matters by words of mounth between two rather opposite to each other groups, like Muslims and Shindhi (who belonged to the Hindu religion) is rather limited. That is why I think that the word of mouth in this case had less impact.

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Re: Facts about Hyderabad Sindh versus AK teaching

Post by button slammer » 05 Jan 2011

In Ancient Britain when an invading fleet was spotted off the coast ,beacons would be set ablaze. These beacons would signal to other beacons many miles away. Within hours the entire nation would be alerted to danger, also by other means such as fast messengers on horseback and runners. In a modern age where aeroplanes, ocean liners, trains, buses, automobiles, telegraph, telephone, newspapers, cinema, marketplaces, coffee houses, public spaces, work places, and places of recreation serve as a means whereby people can interact and exchange news and ideas, news travels faster, especially bad news. During the early days of the Yagya political unease was caused by Om Mandali organisation. This unease brought about riots. When riots occur it is major news in any country. If in ancient times a nation can be alerted to danger within hours and days, then surely in modern times a nation will come to know the cause of political unrest and rioting.

There is also a conspicuous absence of knowledge relating to the affairs of the Suryavansi clan. After parting company with Dada Lekraj and the other moon dynasty brahmins, just where and what did the suryavansi clan get up to? Are the Sun dynasty souls the type of character just to completely finish their effort making because of disputes? If we consider the nature of the Rudra Father then he would continue fighting and opposing even to his last breath, his suryavansi children would do likewise. Herein lies the answer to how the souls of Sind Hydrabad recieved the Godly message. The suryavansi clan continued to do service in an incognito manner.
The rosary of Rudra children are shown to have multiple faces. When the satopradhan knowledge was being narrated and studied by the suryavansi clan, how many souls were entering via a subtle body to hear the message? Murli says 'whatever happened in the beginning will happen at the end'.
There is also the matter of the meaning of Hydrabad and Sindh itself. Just as within the Murli; London, America, Australia, Nepal, Brazil etc all have a qualitative meaning relating to Gyan. What is the Gyani definition of Hydrabad Sindh? I remember Baba defining Karachi as ' Kara CHI!' Like someone who is being made to speak the truth under force or pressure.

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