Theists and atheists

An open forum for all ex-BKs, BKs, PBKs, ex-PBKs, Vishnu Party and ALL other Splinter Groups to post their queries to, and debate with, any member of any group congenially.
ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by ANU » 24 Nov 2010

Can you give me a single Murli quote that says "Shiva sermonizes through the three murtis" or "Shiva gives inheritance through the three murtis", or "Shiva establishes heaven through the three murtis" or "Godfather will be revealed to the world through the three murtis."
Dear indiana
I feel that we are talkingabout different things. I am talking about Shiva who has three taks done through 3 murti and reveals himself through 3 murti; you are asking me to give you poits about his speaking through 3 murti. Baba has already clarified this at least few times how Shiva speaks through 3 murtis. It is a part of AIVV teachings.
Here I post points that have been distributed in AIVV.
 Trimurti Supreme Father Shiva only is the bestower of knowledge and salvager of all. Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar are born together. It is not just Shivjayanti [Shiva's birthday] but Trimurti Shivjayanti. [Mu. 27-09-75 Pg-3]

 Children you write Trimurti Shiva's birthday. But three personalities are not in existence now. You say that ShivBaba creates the new world through Brahma. Hence, Brahma should also be present in the corporeal form. However, where are Vishnu and Shankar now? So how can you call it as Trinity? These are matters to be understood. Trimurti means Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar. You are the ones who know the secret of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar. [Mu 18-2-76 Pg-1]



Then, I am talking about the Trimurti Shiva, you are talking about Chariot. These are different things. Please, let's use words accurately and meaningfully. Otherwise, we won't be able to understand each other.
MU. 16.2.73 -- "As ShivBaba enters Shankar, hence they identify Shiva as Shankar."
Dear indiana, ShivBaba means Shiva+his corporeal Chariot. This is what we have been taught in AIVV. Please, explain to me how Shiva who is already in his Chariot (ShivBaba) enters another Chariot? Who is called ShivBaba in this point?

Refering to the points you quoted - I understand that you are talking about Shiva's role of the Father. I do not try deny it. The role of the Father is one of many roles he plays. To play his roles he has three murtis. He plays seperate roles through each of them. You concentrate on one of murtis. OK. I understand this. I am looking for the whole view and desire full understanding of Shiva's performance through 3 murtis. This is the difference between us.
Good luck and best wishes.

pbkindiana
PBK
Posts: 616
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by pbkindiana » 25 Nov 2010

MU. 16.2.73 -- "As ShivBaba enters Shankar, hence they identify Shiva as Shankar."

Dear indiana, ShivBaba means Shiva+his corporeal Chariot. This is what we have been taught in AIVV. Please, explain to me how Shiva who is already in his Chariot (ShivBaba) enters another Chariot? Who is called ShivBaba in this point?
Dear Anu,

Please look at the term 'enters' as it denotes the entry. It wasn't stated as 'ShivBaba will enter Shankar.'
I am looking for the whole view and desire full understanding of Shiva's performance through 3 murtis. This is the difference between us.
Yes, there is a vast difference between us. You aspire to have complete understanding of Shiva's role through the three murtis but for the majority of us, we are keen in only one murti as He is the only one who plays the role of Father-Teacher-Sadguru. As it is said "to know the seed is to know its creation."

indie.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by ANU » 25 Nov 2010

Dear pbk indiana

"Pravesh karna", that is 'entry' refers to both the physical and the metaphysical sense. "Entry" doesn't neessarilly mean "enter in the body". It may also mean "occupy place in someone's heart or mind aand so on".

What do you mean by saying 'for the majority of us' ? Who are those "we"? Could you explain please.
Best wishes

pbkindiana
PBK
Posts: 616
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by pbkindiana » 26 Nov 2010

Anu wrote:
"Pravesh karna", that is 'entry' refers to both the physical and the metaphysical sense. "Entry" doesn't neessarilly mean "enter in the body". It may also mean "occupy place in someone's heart or mind aand so on".
Dear Anu,

In AIVV it is often said "Praveshum" ( I am capable of entering) and it is said in Sakar Murlis that "I am sitting next to his soul" and entry means to enter the body as Shiva had entered into Brahma DL to sermonize the SM and currently Shiva is present in Baba Dixit and the role of Shankar is going on.

If at all it is unnecessary for Shiva to enter into a human being, then why did Shiva say that in
MU. 30.6.75 -- "How can Father talk without a body? How can He hear? When the soul has a body, then only it can hear and speak. Father says, if I don't have organs how can I hear or see or speak."

MU. 23.9.87 --"How can I explain knowledge without the aid of the corporeal medium.In this no inspiration is at all involved. I am sitting here in the form of the teacher."

Moreover i feel it is simple logic for Shiva to sit next to a soul as He is the Father of souls and not to occupy place in the heart or mind as the soul controls the whole body. If Shiva doesn't sit in the forehead, then how Yoga takes place?

What do you mean by saying 'for the majority of us' ? Who are those "we"? Could you explain please.


You are a new-comer to this forum but if you look into the archives of this forum, then you will observe that majority of the members or all of them are interested only in one murti ie. who will become the personified form of ShivBaba. The debate of the members in this forum is all about giving their own perspectives as whom they believe as who is the "God of Gita."

indie.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by ANU » 26 Nov 2010

Dear Indiana

Thank you for your sharing. Referrig to the word "pravesh karna" and "enter" and its meaning in the classes published by AIVV, I recommend classes in which Baba explains the unlimited entrance (praveshtum) in Vishnu. This meaning explained by Baba himself has nothing to do with the physical entrance.

pbkindiana
PBK
Posts: 616
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by pbkindiana » 29 Nov 2010

Anu wrote:
Thank you for your sharing. Referrig to the word "pravesh karna" and "enter" and its meaning in the classes published by AIVV, I recommend classes in which Baba explains the unlimited entrance (praveshtum) in Vishnu. This meaning explained by Baba himself has nothing to do with the physical entrance.
Dear Anu,

It is said in AK that Vaishnavi, Vishnu shakti does the practical life of 'no vish' when she merges her sanskars with Narayan. She is revealed when she receives the knowledge of Father Shiv through the permanent Chariot. Otherwise from where will Lakshmi bring the wealth of knowledge and definitely she brings it only from Narayan.

indie.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Theists and atheists

Post by ANU » 09 Dec 2010

Dear Indie
I don't understand the link between what I said about Vishnu and your comment. :-?

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

The Kalpa Tree

Post by ANU » 09 Dec 2010

When we go through the teachings of the Kalpa Tree, we can learn that the Deity dharm is full of virtues; the right side of the tree posseses the virtue of purity. I haven't heard about any virtue of the left side of the tree. According to Gyan in the Sakar Murli and points from Avyakt Vanis, souls of all kinds have their unique vitrues. What are the unique virtues of those on the left side? Has Baba in AK mentionded any? I haven't come across. Maybe some of you have....

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11587
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by arjun » 12 Dec 2010

I remember Baba praising Islamis for their quality of loyalty while speaking about the dog that goes with Yudhishthir to heaven. Baba also praises their quality of unity. Baba also says that the impurity of Islamis is limited to 4 wives whereas Hindus indulge in much more adultery when they reach their tamopradhan stage.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by ANU » 17 Dec 2010

What about the rest of branches of the left side?
What positive qualities do they have acc. to AK? I haven't heard about any.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11587
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by arjun » 18 Dec 2010

Anu Bhai,
Om Shanti. The other day I was listening to Disc.CD No.542. I came across some sentences where Baba has praised all the religions without mentioning the specialty of any particular religion. I hope it helps:
"The Father of those religious fathers, the supreme Father who is considered to be the God Father- when he comes in this world, then he selects the souls of every religion of the entire world. There are righteous ones in every religion. There is no other religion which does not have goodness; there is no religion where does not have good and bad people. He selects the righteous souls from among them and prepares a gathering. That gathering will give birth to the traditions and rituals of the new world."

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4338
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by shivsena » 18 Dec 2010

arjun wrote: " There are righteous ones in every religion. There is no other religion which does not have goodness; there is no religion where does not have good and bad people. He selects the righteous souls from among them and prepares a gathering. That gathering will give birth to the traditions and rituals of the new world."
If every religion has good and bad souls, then why do most PBKs always insist that they would like to become bharatwasis(supposedly Hindus) and not videshis(other religions), when asked personally.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11587
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by arjun » 19 Dec 2010

If every religion has good and bad souls, then why do most PBKs always insist that they would like to become bharatwasis(supposedly Hindus) and not videshis(other religions), when asked personally.
No other religion gives importance to purity and tolerance as much as the Indian religions do.

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4338
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by shivsena » 20 Dec 2010

arjun wrote: No other religion gives importance to purity and tolerance as much as the Indian religions do.
Then why does BapDada always give more importance to double videshis in most avaykt Vanis and repeatedly says that it is the duty of double videshis to wake up the bharatwasis kumbhakaran.....and also it has been said in Vanis that ''videshis Bap ko pratyaksh(reveal) karenge''...why it is never said that Bharatwasis will reveal the Father.

Can any pbk please give his views about who are these Bharatwasis(kumbhakaran) and double videshis who will reveal the Father.

shivsena.

pbkindiana
PBK
Posts: 616
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: The Kalpa Tree

Post by pbkindiana » 20 Dec 2010

Arjun wrote:
No other religion gives importance to purity and tolerance as much as the Indian religions do
.

It is said in SM 23.6.71 -- "People of other religions are not converted. Bharatwasis only are converted."

Does this quality of purity and tolerance is the reason for Bharatwasis to get converted. (fr being an Indian to another religion)

indie.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests