Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

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Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 03 Jan 2011

How Shiva teaches

Yah Gita Gyan svayam bAp padhA rahe hain. Ismen koi śastr Adi kI bAt nahIn hai. Yah to padhAI hai. KitAb Gita to yahAn hai nahIn. BAp padhAte hain. KitAb thode hI hAth men uthAte hain. (Mu 19.02.2000)

Gita kA bhI Gyan sunAnevAle honge. To yah knowledge bAp hI Akar dete hain. KoI bhI śAstr Adi hAth men thode hI hain. Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain. (Mu 19.02.2000)

Translation (only suggestion; I can find few possible versions of translating these points:
The Father himself teaches this knowledge of the Gita. In this there is no scripture or things like this. This is about studying. The book of the Gita is not here. The Father teaches. He doesn’t hold a book in his hand. (Mu 19.02.2000)
There will be also those who make the others listen to the knowledge of the Gita. The Father himself comes and “gives” this knowledge. He doesn’t hold any scripture or things like this in his hand. Neither I have read a scripture, nor they read it to you. (Mu 19.02.2000)


These two extracts come from Sakar Murlis. They present the way or method of the Father’s teaching. The main conclusion is that when the Father teaches, he doesn’t hold in the hand the Gita, he doesn’t refer to the Gita, he doesn’t read the Gita and he doesn’t read the Gita to the children. The Avyakt Vanis narrated in Mount Abu, in PBKIVV can not be called ‘narration of the Gita by the Father’, for that they contain dharna, not knowledge and they are narrated by a human soul. In AIVV, in almost all classes (apart from discussions), the teacher keep the book (Sakar Murli which he calls the unlimited Gita) in his hand, he reads the book to the children and he refers to the book. Many classes consist of only reading the book. When asked about this, the teacher says that Krishna who is present in the body reads. Yet, we need to remember that the person is the same and this person holds the Gita in his hand. When Krishna reads, he sits next to the teacher, according to AIVV, and he is never addressed ‘tumko’ (you). In the above extracts, the narrator says: “Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain.” (Neither I have read a scripture, nor do they read it to you). Reflection on this point along with the point “Gita kA bhI Gyan sunAnevAle honge” (There will be also those who make people listen to the knowledge of the Gita) brought me to a thought: ‘What is actually happening in the Advance Knowledge? Who are those “you” mentioned in the point?’ The students of AIVV go through hours of listening to the reading of the book, while the excerpt above states: ‘The Father “gives” (narrates) you this knowledge after coming.’ Another point states: ‘This is the knowledge of a second.’ And the Avyakt Vani of 17.01.78 states: ‘You have achieved God, while sitting at home. So you must feel so happy.’ This point may not refer to the Basic Knowledge and the Advance Knowledge. Who among BK or PBK has achieved God while sitting at home? Procedures of both institution don’t allow this. Apart from this, let’s think of the statement “In this there is no scripture or things like this.” “Things like this” means something similar to scriptures, something which plays roles similar to scriptures, meaning what doesn’t answer your questions. They are books, leaflets, posters, CDs, VCDs and dozens other things used both in PBKIVV and AIVV which have nothing in common with studying metioned in the SM extracts.

Your comments are welcome.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by arjun » 05 Jan 2011

Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain. (Mu 19.02.2000)
Neither I have read a scripture, nor they read it to you. (Mu 19.02.2000)

The correct translation would perhaps be 'neither do I read scriptures nor do I teach (scriptures) to you as well'.

Ismen koi śastr Adi kI bAt nahIn hai. (Mu 19.02.2000)
In this there is no scripture or things like this. (Mu 19.02.2000)

The correct translation would perhaps be 'This does not involve scriptures, etc.'
And the Avyakt Vani of 17.01.78 states: ‘You have achieved God, while sitting at home. So you must feel so happy.’ This point may not refer to the Basic Knowledge and the Advanced Knowledge. Who among BK or PBK has achieved God while sitting at home? Procedures of both institution don’t allow this.
In the beginning of the Yagya BKs had visions sitting at home asking them to meet Brahma. After some time the visions stopped but many people do get message through BKs/PBKs sitting at their homes. Someone may get message through internet sitting at home.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 05 Jan 2011

Someone may get message through internet sitting at home.
Is "getting the message" the same as "you have achieved God"? Receiving the message and achieving God are two completely different things, for me. Thousands thousands people have already received the message. Who among them have achieved God?

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by arjun » 05 Jan 2011

Who among them have achieved God?
Those who get inspired by the message and pursue their interest.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by pbkindiana » 06 Jan 2011

Anu wrote:
Who among them have achieved God?
Is it not by reading AK that we have found God while sitting at home. The next step will be to meet God practically.

My sister's friend who is going through a difficult divorce was introduced to AK by my sister who is also a pbk. Her friend started to read AK and fell in love with Ak and its author (God) while sitting at home. To-date she has not met Baba personally but is telling that Baba is helping in her difficult situations when she sits and cries of her problems during Amrit Vela. She is feeling so much of relief and peace of mind. Also to meet God is numberwise too.

indie.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 06 Jan 2011

My Sister's friend who is going through a difficult divorce was introduced to AK by my Sister who is also a PBK. Her friend started to read AK and fell in love with Ak and its author (God) while sitting at home. To-date she has not met Baba personally but is telling that Baba is helping in her difficult situations when she sits and cries of her problems during Amrit Vela. She is feeling so much of relief and peace of mind. Also to meet God is numberwise too.

Indie, I have got lost about who you consider as God. You mentioned several times that AK is narrated by a human soul, Ram. SM clearly states that no human soul can be called God. Here you state that author of AK (who according to you is a human soul, as you revealed earlier) is God.

So finally who did that friend achieve reading narration of a human soul?

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by pbkindiana » 07 Jan 2011

Anu wrote:
Indie, I have got lost about who you consider as God. You mentioned several times that AK is narrated by a human soul, Ram. SM clearly states that no human soul can be called God. Here you state that author of AK (who according to you is a human soul, as you revealed earlier) is God.
Who is the only human being who becomes Bhagawan -- is it not Ram. AK is Ram's churnings and when Ram churns, He does with soul consciousness that makes AK accurate but when Brahma/Krishna interferes, then there is ambiguity. Why did the PBKs ran to meet Baba Dixit (Rambap) by any means after reading AK -- is not it becoz there is truth in it. Only when a human soul churns in soul-consciousness, then there is accuracy, otherwise why is it said in SM that Shiva is impressed with this one's churnings. Just look at Brahma/Krishna interfering AK in body-consciousness causing Ak to have ambiguities. If you say that SM clearly states that no human soul can be called God, then why is Shankar's name suffixed to Shiva. Why is it said in hinduism that God himself became man and man himself became God.

If Shiva is so powerful, then why is it to-date there is no sign of paradise. Shiva's power can only work and Supreme Soul Shiva can only be revealed through the complete purusharth of Rambap.When Ram's purusharth is completed, then Ram becomes Bhagawan. Shiva and Prajapita need each other to get revealed and both complement each other.
So finally who did that friend achieve reading narration of a human soul?
Don't forget that human soul who is the author of AK is a form of God and that friend has started to have faith on him as the personified form of Shiva and is introducing AK to her parents who are originally fr India and is asking me whether i can get AK reading materials in Hindi for them.

indie.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 07 Jan 2011

indiana wrote:Don't forget that human soul who is the author of AK is a form of God
I disagree with this point of view. No human soul can be called God (SM), so he cannot become a form of God.

AK is Ram's churnings and when Ram churns, He does with soul consciousness that makes AK accurate but when Brahma/Krishna interferes, then there is ambiguity.
As we can find great numbers of ambiguities in AK, I conclude that it consists mostly of Krishna's ideas. Even a drop of poison makes the entire milk poison. Then, we cannot expect the AK to work beneficialy for us. It becomes something dangerous.
Why did the PBKs ran to meet Baba Dixit (Rambap) by any means after reading AK -- is not it becoz there is truth in it.
Do they run to mean Baba Dixit? Oh my dear! I thought that people run to meet God Shiva....
Anyway, people may run to meet him for various reasons; they may tell you that they have found the truth, but the real reason may be totally different and they may not be able to tell you this. Or, another possibility, it is only your assumption that they have found truth; you don't know what is in their mind indeed, unless you become omniscient.

Please, explain to me what you understand by TRUTH.
Only when a human soul churns in soul-consciousness, then there is accuracy, otherwise why is it said in SM that Shiva is impressed with this one's churnings.
We have already discussed that we can find lots of inaccuracy in the AK at its present stage. So, I don't kow why it was said in SM that Shiva is impressed with this one's....
AK explains that "this one" refers to Brahma Baba. When Shiva narrated SM through him, he used to say "this one" about the soul of BB. And what is your view?

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by shivsena » 07 Jan 2011

ANU wrote: We have already discussed that we can find lots of inaccuracy in the AK at its present stage. So, I don't kow why it was said in SM that Shiva is impressed with this one's...
Dear anu.

There is no such point in Sakar Murli which says directly or indirectly that "Shiva is impressed with this one's churning"....how can Shiva be impressed with advance knowledge(or with any churning for that matter) which is causing split in the family and causing hostility amongst the children.....can indiana quote the date of the said point which she has been mentioning again and again ... or can arjun Bhai or any well-read pbk even vouch that such a point exists in S. Murlis.

shivsena.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 07 Jan 2011

arjun wrote:Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain. (Mu 19.02.2000)
Neither I have read a scripture, nor they read it to you. (Mu 19.02.2000)

The correct translation would perhaps be 'neither do I read scriptures nor do I teach (scriptures) to you as well'.
I find the translation which you posted as possible as the version which I proposed. I think that there may be few other translations too. A vital question for me is: what does the point mean and what is its 100% correct traslation?

By the way, Arjun, please let's think why "tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain" should be translated as "nor do I teach (scriptures) to you as well" ? For me it is not obvious, at all. Do you know it 100%? I consulted your translation with my Father (he has some special qualifications in translations from Hindi) He says that the translation you propose doesn't match the original version. Do you use Hindi as a native?

The other natives in the forum are welcome to post their views on these translations.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 07 Jan 2011

shivsena wrote:Dear anu.There is no such point in Sakar Murli which says directly or indirectly that "Shiva is impressed with this one's churning"....how can Shiva be impressed with Advanced Knowledge(or with any churning for that matter) which is causing split in the family and causing hostility amongst the children.....can indiana quote the date of the said point which she has been mentioning again and again ... or can arjun Bhai or any well-read PBK even vouch that such a point exists in S. Murlis.
Dear shivsena
I think that unless we have all SM in our minds and know every single word in them, we should accept the possibility that such a point MAY BE, but we do not know it. :D I haven't come across such a point neither in SM nor in classes of AK which I listened to. Let's wait for indiana's answer to your request.

Now, I would like to ask all participants to forget for a while about all labels and read the following points:

DUSRE DHARMVALE AYE, TO DEKHO BAP KE SAMNE HI PARTITION HUA NA (30.09.71)
Bharat JO HAI ISKA DUSHMAN KOI HAI NAHII. YAH TO DUSRE DHARMVALE AKAR LARATE HAIN. (28.11.72, 7.12.69)

(My translation:
Followers from the other religion came and look, a partition happened right before the Father himself, did not it. (30.09.71)
Bharat doesn't have any enemies. Followers of the other religion came and they fight. (28.11.72, 7.12.69) )

There must be a reason for which the narrator used the word 'partition' not 'division' (even in Hindi). Partition means especially 'division in two' and it refers to a country (in the unlimited sense it may refer to the country of Brahmins), while 'division' mean division in two or more parts. The Murli was repeated in 1971. I think that if the narrator had wanted to refer to creating zones, he wouldn't have used 'partition'. And, let's think, does the creation of zones of responsibility in PBKIVV (in-charge) equals partition? Those old Jarasindhi (a term from AK) remained together till today under the hierarchy of Mt Abu administration, despite zone in-charges.

And the other thing which I would like to draw your attention to, is the characteristic of Bharat. "Bharat does have enemies". The year of narration was 1969 right after Baba Virendra came to PBKIVV. Soon after, as Baba himself explained and his biography states, lots of enemies emerged. I personally find this fact as very meaningful. Enemity needs at least two partners. One-side enemity doesn't last for long. Here, in the case of AIVV and PBKIVV enemity has lasted for over 30 years. And inside AIVV enemity has heavy crops. Baba has turned out to remain in enemity with many enemies and serious enemies.
Where is Bharat, then? Who is Bharat?

Your comments are welcome. Let's think in an unbiased way. :D

And what about holding scriptures in the hand? In every class, we can see and hear the scripture.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by arjun » 08 Jan 2011

anu wrote:DUSRE DHARMVALE AYE, TO DEKHO BAP KE SAMNE HI PARTITION HUA NA (30.09.71)
Bharat JO HAI ISKA DUSHMAN KOI HAI NAHII. YAH TO DUSRE DHARMVALE AKAR LARATE HAIN. (28.11.72, 7.12.69)

(My translation:
Followers from the other religion came and look, a partition happened right before the Father himself, did not it. (30.09.71)
Bharat doesn't have any enemies. Followers of the other religion came and they fight. (28.11.72, 7.12.69) )
The translation of the second Murli point is not accurate. It should be "follwers of other religions come and cause fights" . So, it means that actually Bharat does not have enemies,but it is the weak/vicious souls from other religions who come and cause a fight to emerge between brothers and thus make them enemies of Bharat.
As regards the first Murli point, the date may be 1971 but it is not the original date of narration of Murli. It is a revised Murli date. So, we need to see the previous or successive sentence to arrive at some conclusion.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by arjun » 08 Jan 2011

anu wrote:By the way, Arjun, please let's think why "tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain" should be translated as "nor do I teach (scriptures) to you as well" ? For me it is not obvious, at all. Do you know it 100%? I consulted your translation with my Father (he has some special qualifications in translations from Hindi) He says that the translation you propose doesn't match the original version. Do you use Hindi as a native?
I am fairly confident of the translation that I have provided. It is upto you to get it checked from any other person. I am sorry I cannot accept your translation of the above phrase.

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by ANU » 08 Jan 2011

Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain. (Mu 19.02.2000)


I do not work as a traslator to English. I rely on my knowledge of English as a secondary language. I cannot understand why Arjun propose to translate this setence

... tumko bhI nahIn padhAte hain as ... nor do I teach (scriptures) to you as well

I don't want to mislead you.

According to an opinion of a translator, either the translation sent by Arjun doesn't match the original or the original version contains mistakes. According to the translator I spoke to, if the sentence is about the same person, it would be "Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAta hum."

What do you think?

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Re: Reflections on Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis

Post by arjun » 08 Jan 2011

anu wrote:According to an opinion of a translator, either the translation sent by Arjun doesn't match the original or the original version contains mistakes. According to the translator I spoke to, if the sentence is about the same person, it would be "Main bhI śAstr nahIn padhA hum, tumko bhI nahIn padhAta hum."

What do you think?
If you read all the Sakar Murlis delivered by Shiv through Dada Lekhraj you will find that the language is so indirect in style that 'I' ('main' quoted by you in the above translation) or 'Me' is hardly used. Similarly, 'children' is also conspicuous by its absence in many sentences where it is clearly implied. This is the specialty of the language. Baba conveys I, Me and Children without using these words directly on many occasions.

So, I would stick to the translation suggested by me.

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