Controversy - let's live what we preach

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Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 13 Mar 2011

I would like to share with you some controversy brough to light recently:

1. The teacher in AIVV teaches that Bharat has the greatest diversity of nations, languages, religions in the world. A great lie. There are app 30 ethnic groups in India with app 30 languages officially menthoned versus Russia's 160 ethnic groups speaking some 100 languages officially mentioned. Dialects are not counted as each language can have few dialects. Regarding the number of dialects India may lose with China greately. The number of religious groups in the case of both Russia and India have been mentioned as the same.

2. The teacher in AIVV teaches that the Earth is located in the centre of three-layer universe, which makes it also the centre of the galaxy and the Solar System. The discoveries in XVI cen. showed that the Earth is not the centre of the Solar System. Modern discoveries show that the Earth is not located even in the centre of the galaxy. Numerous galaxies have been discovered in the universe which expands all the time.

3. The teacher in AIVV preaches that the students must not violate any social law. At the same time he travels across India using a false ID card in which his false name is mentioned. I personally saw a xerox of a ticket in which he used a false name. The xerox was sent to me by a person who traveled with Virendra Dev Dixit in India. Moreover, one mother revealed that he himself encouraged oher to get a false ID card in order to travel with him. Getting false documents in considered by law as one of the greatest violations of law - crimes. Encouraging someone to get false documents is also considered as a crime. All right, let he has false set of documents, but at the same time why does he preach about obeying social laws, if he himself doesn't obey them?

4. The teacher in AIVV says that he remains completely neutral and impartial and he has the same eyes for everyone, while his all teaching remains strongly nationalistic and Bharat-oriented (like the teachings mentioned in the first point). He uses a biased language full of prejudice towards certain groups and sets a clear hierarchy calling certain group/s "noble" and the others "inferior". When asked for more comprehensive explanation on these topics, he says nothing. Personally, I don't believe that someone who has the same eye for everyone can say something like this. He labels souls with stickers "noble" or "inferior" and after teaching this he wants them to be brothers and have the equal eye for each other.

5. There are some classes in which the AIVV teacher reveals his attitude towards sexes. It remains far from treating them equally. He says that women don't need education, while men should get education; women should stay at home, while men can go everywhere and so on. Then, he calles women "not so intelligent and mentally powerful as men". How can they become intelligent and mentalluy powerfull if they should not have any education and live in four walls? Moreover, he encourages men openly to control women saying in classes "each man should have his woman under control". Great equality, indeed.

6. In his classes he condemned science and modern inventions a lot, praising at the same time the old life style in Bharat. Condemning science and inventions he himself uses them widely.

7. People who travelled with Virendra Dev Dixit say that they had never seen him waking up for the Amrit Vela, but sleeping till 5-6 o'clock, while at the same time he himself terrifies students with harsh words about falling asleep telling them that they should sleep 4 hours.

8. People who lived with Virendra Dev Dixit say that they had never seen him doing his body seva by himself, like washing clothes, washing his plate, making his bad or doing any house work. He is served in each and every thing by mothers and kanyas - even in everyday washing and massaging his body with creams and oils and washing his underwear. He is always given special food, prepared seperately and served in his own utensils and uses things that no one else can touch, becasue they might get polluted. Yet he teaches "do your seva by yourself and never have anyone do your seva."


Asked for explanations the teacher says nothing.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by Sach_Khand » 14 Mar 2011

Dear ANU,

(1) I think what is said to be russia now was not considered as russia before second world war. But Bharat today has been reduced into present India. The concept of Bharat had much wider area of land since the term Bharat has been mentioned. Bharat has been reduced to India. I suppose my knowledge is correct. I know very less about Russia. Please correct if I am wrong.

(2) Even science has not True explanation. They are just having theories. And the present science cannot measure the length and breadth of universe. Whereas not well read women of 12th century in India also have written about the universe knowing with their inner eyes.

(3) No comments.

(4) Yes. Bharat is favoured in BK and also AIVV. I think that it is not wrong saying what is true historically. Having kindness towards anyone does not mean that his/her negative side should not be recognised. Even negative side of Bharat has been said. But it is said that Bharat has central role to play in the history of humanity. History has it. And coming times will reveal the truth in near future.

(5) You cannot make males and females equal. It is just like making wheat and rice the same. If you try it and make it equal by genetic engineering, then too the new product is neither wheat nor rice.
Neither male is great nor female. Each has their respective specialities and defeciencies. By pointing them out and saying what suits each one is not inequality. It is wisdom.

(6) It is not that the the old Bharat had no science and technology. They had better science. Even some of the other civilisations too had better science. But they were not used as the present times has used just to rob more from nature and humanity than giving to them.

(7) I do not know about the present thing. But when I used to go to Kampil I have sat with him and many other students who came their at the early morning 4.45 am. We used to have Yoga at that time for about an hour and then Murli class. And later althought time was changed, but not late than 5.30 or so. So, the statement is a lie with respect to the old days. I cannot say about the present things.

(8) I have heard that Virendra Dev Dixit used to take part in renovation of the old inherited house that had only ground floor. And he too used to work (in late 1980s and early 1990s) while building the first floor. (now that building is totally removed and they have reconstructed a new building I suppose).

(9) I think the teacher Virendra Dev Dixit need not answer you. There are many like us who have seen him and lived with him. We can answer such questions. But not very personal quesions. Although some who are very close and intimate with Virendra Dev Dixit can answer them too.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 14 Mar 2011

Dear Anu Bhai,

In regards to your post above, I do have to say that God cannot be recognized if you see with your 'gross' eyes. To see God one must open their third eye of intellect because that's the only way you can see him. You seem to have made your observation with your limited knowledge, but fail to understand who is God and how he plays his part. Murli states that God comes in this impure world, in the most impure body, amongst monkey_like children (known to be extremely vicious) and he transforms them from impure to pure. This is why he is called Patit_Pavan. In each and every Murli it says the 'Unlimited Father talks to Unlimited children' meaning those who remain soul-conscious will be able to understand him..

Nivi

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 14 Mar 2011

anu wrote:1. The teacher in AIVV teaches that Bharat has the greatest diversity of nations, languages, religions in the world. A great lie. There are app 30 ethnic groups in India with app 30 languages officially menthoned versus Russia's 160 ethnic groups speaking some 100 languages officially mentioned. Dialects are not counted as each language can have few dialects. Regarding the number of dialects India may lose with China greately. The number of religious groups in the case of both Russia and India have been mentioned as the same.
But is Russian civilization as old as India? The number of ethnic groups or languages may be more but is there the same diversity of religions?
anu wrote:2. The teacher in AIVV teaches that the Earth is located in the centre of three-layer universe, which makes it also the centre of the galaxy and the Solar System. The discoveries in XVI cen. showed that the Earth is not the centre of the Solar System. Modern discoveries show that the Earth is not located even in the centre of the galaxy. Numerous galaxies have been discovered in the universe which expands all the time.
The human knowledge in this field is always limited, whatever be the advancement of science.
3. The teacher in AIVV preaches that the students must not violate any social law. At the same time he travels across India using a false ID card in which his false name is mentioned. I personally saw a xerox of a ticket in which he used a false name. The xerox was sent to me by a person who traveled with Veerendra Dev Dixit in India. Moreover, one mother revealed that he himself encouraged oher to get a false ID card in order to travel with him. Getting false documents in considered by law as one of the greatest violations of law - crimes. Encouraging someone to get false documents is also considered as a crime. All right, let he has false set of documents, but at the same time why does he preach about obeying social laws, if he himself doesn't obey them?
This is for AIVV to answer. But, given the continuous and very practical threat to his life from BKs, I think changing names during train journeys is not a big crime. The aim and objective is more important.
4. The teacher in AIVV says that he remains completely neutral and impartial and he has the same eyes for everyone, while his all teaching remains strongly nationalistic and Bharat-oriented (like the teachings mentioned in the first point). He uses a biased language full of prejudice towards certain groups and sets a clear hierarchy calling certain group/s "noble" and the others "inferior". When asked for more comprehensive explanation on these topics, he says nothing. Personally, I don't believe that someone who has the same eye for everyone can say something like this. He labels souls with stickers "noble" or "inferior" and after teaching this he wants them to be Brothers and have the equal eye for each other.
ShivBaba's teachings may be Bhaarat oriented, but He has never said that only those who are living in Bhaarat are Bhaaratwasis (residents of Bhaarat). Even souls in non-Indian bodies could be Bhaaratwasis based on their sanskars and karmic accounts.
5. There are some classes in which the AIVV teacher reveals his attitude towards sexes. It remains far from treating them equally. He says that women don't need education, while men should get education; women should stay at home, while men can go everywhere and so on. Then, he calles women "not so intelligent and mentally powerful as men". How can they become intelligent and mentalluy powerfull if they should not have any education and live in four walls? Moreover, he encourages men openly to control women saying in classes "each man should have his woman under control". Great equality, indeed.
ShivBaba is not against education, but against the education system which makes people characterless and materialistic. He is not forcing anyone to shun education. Most of the PBKs are still imparting worldly education to their children. And why are you singling out the Advance knowledge for this? This view about education has been since the days of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and not a new idea.
6. In his classes he condemned science and modern inventions a lot, praising at the same time the old life style in Bharat. Condemning science and inventions he himself uses them widely.
We have to use science until our power of silence and spirituality reaches a greater height than science.
7. People who travelled with Veerendra Dev Dixit say that they had never seen him waking up for the Amrit Vela, but sleeping till 5-6 o'clock, while at the same time he himself terrifies students with harsh words about falling asleep telling them that they should sleep 4 hours.
I have travelled with him on two occasions and found that he starts getting telephone calls from Amrit Vela itself and they continue upto late in the night. Considering his age and fragile health and in view of the fact that he travels almost throughout the year, eating and drinking different kinds of food and water in different climatic conditions, I think one should be kind enough to allow him some extra sleep. The above observations are more for the sake of defamation than for the sake of any rational arguement. In case of Gulzar Dadi, she need many days rest after delivering every Avyakt Vani, but here Baba is sitting continuously in the class for many hours and speaking loudly almost everyday and travelling almost everyday. Can we equate a PBK living at one place and working for limited hours with Baba who has such a hectic schedule and immense responsibilities?
8. People who lived with Veerendra Dev Dixit say that they had never seen him doing his body seva by himself, like washing clothes, washing his plate, making his bad or doing any house work. He is served in each and every thing by mothers and kanyas - even in everyday washing and massaging his body with creams and oils and washing his underwear. He is always given special food, prepared seperately and served in his own utensils and uses things that no one else can touch, becasue they might get polluted. Yet he teaches "do your seva by yourself and never have anyone do your seva."
As regards washing his clothes and plates, I think it has more to do with the desire of the PBK mothers and sisters living with him than his own desire. For many many years he used to do all his work himself, besides cooking and doing Godly service. It is only after the number of PBKs (especially the surrendered ones) that he is not allowed to do his personal work. I have travelled with him on tours twice and he ate with me whatever was offered by the local PBKs in their own utensils and not any special utensils and there was no special food for him. But yes, sometimes he is given some different food depending upon his health/ill-health. One can see practically in the Discussion CDs that many times when there is no electricity and PBKs come forward with a hand-held fan, he asks them not to do so, but they continue to disobey him. Well, how can he be held guilty for that?

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 14 Mar 2011

But is Russian civilization as old as India? The number of ethnic groups or languages may be more but is there the same diversity of religions?
You can find in Russia all kinds of religion, just like in India.
This is for AIVV to answer. But, given the continuous and very practical threat to his life from BKs, I think changing names during train journeys is not a big crime. The aim and objective is more important.

Not only the aim but also the way to achieve the aim remains iportant. According to law producing and using false ID is a crime. So, by doing this someone violates the social law and also the Shrimat saying that one should not violate the social law.
ShivBaba is not against education, but against the education system which makes people characterless and materialistic. He is not forcing anyone to shun education. Most of the PBKs are still imparting worldly education to their children. And why are you singling out the Advanced Knowledge for this? This view about education has been since the days of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and not a new idea.
You are hidding those classes in which Baba shouts out that women should not go to school or universities as they do ot need education; that they remained home for ages and it was good for them, so what do they need education for? How can you call it not being against education? He is and expresses it quite often. He tells students to reject education.
I have travelled with him on two occasions and found that he starts getting telephone calls from Amrit Vela itself and they continue upto late in the night. Considering his age and fragile health and in view of the fact that he travels almost throughout the year, eating and drinking different kinds of food and water in different climatic conditions, I think one should be kind enough to allow him some extra sleep. The above observations are more for the sake of defamation than for the sake of any rational arguement. In case of Gulzar Dadi, she need many days rest after delivering every Avyakt Vani, but here Baba is sitting continuously in the class for many hours and speaking loudly almost everyday and travelling almost everyday. Can we equate a PBK living at one place and working for limited hours with Baba who has such a hectic schedule and immense responsibilities?
is not working for many hours and earning for life in today's world tirening? You must not know how the work today looks like that you are writting that we cannot equate a PBK living and working with Baba's hectic life. If Baba's life is hectic than I think the life of an ordinary businessmen or teacher in the world remains double or triple hectic. Many people work for 10-14 hours a day plus traveling to work and back home which may take 2-3 hours. Traveling from place to place is a part of their work, which is full of responsibilities and can be very exhausting. Yet they should sleep 4 hours and wake up at 2-3 a.m. But Baba has extra rights in this.
As regards washing his clothes and plates, I think it has more to do with the desire of the PBK mothers and Sisters living with him than his own desire. For many many years he used to do all his work himself, besides cooking and doing Godly service. It is only after the number of PBKs (especially the surrendered ones) that he is not allowed to do his personal work. I have travelled with him on tours twice and he ate with me whatever was offered by the local PBKs in their own utensils and not any special utensils and there was no special food for him. But yes, sometimes he is given some different food depending upon his health/ill-health. One can see practically in the Discussion CDs that many times when there is no electricity and PBKs come forward with a hand-held fan, he asks them not to do so, but they continue to disobey him. Well, how can he be held guilty for that?
If someone really doesn't wich to be serve like this, he will certainly find way to execute it. If someone doesnt't wish to be "fanned", no one will be able to "fan" him.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 14 Mar 2011

I think what is said to be russia now was not considered as russia before second world war. But Bharat today has been reduced into present India. The concept of Bharat had much wider area of land since the term Bharat has been mentioned. Bharat has been reduced to India. I suppose my knowledge is correct. I know very less about Russia. Please correct if I am wrong.
In classes which I meant, Baba was speaking about contemporary Bharat and he clearly reffered to contemporary life and social phenomena in modern Bharat. Of course, when some ambiguities arise, everything can be twisted and explaied that actually Baba meat something else. But for me this method remains rather crooked.
Even science has not True explanation. They are just having theories. And the present science cannot measure the length and breadth of universe. Whereas not well read women of 12th century in India also have written about the universe knowing with their inner eyes.
The difference between science and Baba is such that science has theories and hypothesis and scientiests repeat that they do not know the truth but they strive to gather evidence and base theories on some evidence. Baba just shouts stataements and doesn't bother himself to bring about any evidence for what he states, despite the fact he says "No wise man will accept anything without evidence".
(4) Yes. Bharat is favoured in BK and also AIVV. I think that it is not wrong saying what is true historically. Having kindness towards anyone does not mean that his/her negative side should not be recognised. Even negative side of Bharat has been said. But it is said that Bharat has central role to play in the history of humanity. History has it. And coming times will reveal the truth in near future.
First we need to bring the evidence to the light and then only we can say that Bharat has a central role. So far, AIVV has not brought about any evidence. They state a lot, but bring not eveidence. They cannot even prove that Bharat has a longer history than China. If time is to reveal the truth, time should be praised.
(5) You cannot make males and females equal. It is just like making wheat and rice the same. If you try it and make it equal by genetic engineering, then too the new product is neither wheat nor rice.Neither male is great nor female. Each has their respective specialities and defeciencies. By pointing them out and saying what suits each one is not inequality. It is wisdom.
"Equal" and "same" have different meanings. I am not saying that men and women are the same. They are different and complementary. Yet being different does not mean that they should be unequal. Yes, on contrary, they should be equal and I want to see them equal, responsible for the self and INDEPENDENT.
Baba's teachings contains many parts showing women lower than men and makes them dependent from men. From the point of view of what he teaching this is quite obvious - he played the part of the first one who brought the sense of unequality between man and woman, dependency of women in the drama.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 14 Mar 2011

Dear Anu Bhai,

Why is there so much issue surrounding 'what he does, and she does' instead of focusing on knowledge and our own progress? If a doctor prescribes some medicine/ special diet to the patient so he gets well does it mean the doctor should also take the medicine to prove it's effectiveness? If a surgeon performs surgery to cure others does it mean he also needs to try on himself? The soul of Ram and Krishna also comes into the cycle of birth/rebirth just like all of us, and also sathopradhan and tamopradhan cycles and stages like the rest of us. Each of us get rewarded or punished for our own actions, so why be so judgmental?

Nivi

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 15 Mar 2011

This souds like empty phrases and cliche - repetion of empty phrases... decades have passed already on these repetions.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 15 Mar 2011

anu wrote:You can find in Russia all kinds of religion, just like in India.
I don't think religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism had any major presence in Russia except in the last century. Even in case of Buddhism, I think it may have a small presence in the remote Eastern part of Russia. So, except Christianity and Islam (most of the Islamic states have also ceded from the esrstwhile USSR) I don't think there is a major presence of any other religion in Russia and hence it cannot be called as multi-religious as India.
Not only the aim but also the way to achieve the aim remains iportant. According to law producing and using false ID is a crime. So, by doing this someone violates the social law and also the Shrimat saying that one should not violate the social law.
You may feel hurt, but I would like to state that only the one who follows truth in his/her own life has a right to point fingers at others. Your writings on this forum prove to a great extent that you are not revealing the truth (even to the extent other members have revealed, like one's gender, language or nationality) on this forum. I don't know the your aim and objective in hiding even such non-harmful information, but it definitely casts a doubt on your honesty in defaming Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. I would like to repeat that I am not asking you to reveal your name, address, etc. I hope you will think calmly on this issue.
You are hidding those classes in which Baba shouts out that women should not go to school or universities as they do ot need education; that they remained home for ages and it was good for them, so what do they need education for? How can you call it not being against education? He is and expresses it quite often. He tells students to reject education.
The teachings of ShivBaba are only for those who have faith. And nobody is being forced to follow it cent percent. Anyone can leave anytime. Even during the initial course or bhatti or after bhatti.
Even during the times of Brahma Baba, he kept young children within four walls for fourteen long years and gave them education within those walls. Today the same Dadis and Didis are speaking at national and international fora rubbing shoulders with heads of States. So, did ShivBaba spoil their life by keeping them away from worldly education?
is not working for many hours and earning for life in today's world tirening? You must not know how the work today looks like that you are writting that we cannot equate a PBK living and working with Baba's hectic life. If Baba's life is hectic than I think the life of an ordinary businessmen or teacher in the world remains double or triple hectic. Many people work for 10-14 hours a day plus traveling to work and back home which may take 2-3 hours. Traveling from place to place is a part of their work, which is full of responsibilities and can be very exhausting. Yet they should sleep 4 hours and wake up at 2-3 a.m. But Baba has extra rights in this.
Baba has said that it is ideal for yogis to sleep only for four hours or to wake up at Amrit Vela. But if someone's lifestyle does not permit this, he is free to sleep any number of hours he wishes. Many a times I am not able to wake up at Amrit Vela. What is the use if I spend the remaining life repenting for those lost moments? Baba always says that we should make spiritual efforts in as easy way as possible. He keeps repeating the phrase 'sahaj miley so doodh sam....' (whatever is achieved easily is like milk, whatever is achieved on seeking is like water and whatever is achieved by snatching from someone forcibly is like blood). So, let everyone make efforts according to his/her comfort/interest.
If someone really doesn't wich to be serve like this, he will certainly find way to execute it. If someone doesnt't wish to be "fanned", no one will be able to "fan" him.
No, I don't think so. I will tell you my own experience. I have some friends who are much younger to me and consider me as their elder brother. It is a tradition in India (especially north India) that youger persons touch the feet of their elders or just say 'pranaam'. I have told my young friends (or brothers) umpteen number of times (and still continue to ask them) not to touch my feet or even say 'pranam', but they do it. I tell them that this is not permissible in our spiritual organization or that I am not worthy of this respect (as I know my own weaknesses) or that I am not so old yet, but they do not listen to me and continue their practice. They are non-BKs and say that you can follow your ashram's rules at your ashram, but when we meet we willl follow our own rules. So, you just tell me what can I do in such situations? Should I scold or beat my younger brothers who express their love and affection in this way? In the western countries there is a tradition of shaking hands on meeting each other. Suppose, someone puts forth his hand to shake hands with you, will you withdraw your steps instead of putting forth your arm in response? Would it not be considered disrespectful if you do not shake hand with that person?

Similarly, if someone is fanning Baba despite his directions to the contrary, how can he be held guilty? For a westerner these practices may appear strange, but if you are actually an Indian (as you claim to be) you would have understood the compulsions involved in such complex situations.

You speak of PBK mothers washing the clothes of Baba. I know many of my colleagues (in high positions and well educated) who have never washed their own underwear either in their childhood or after marriage. When I suggest them to do so, they laugh and say that their wives don't allow them to wash their underwears/banians. In my case my parents taught me to wash my own clothes from the time I was about 10 years old so, I don't find it difficult to wash clothes whenever I am required to do so. Similarly, Baba was from a poor background and did all his household work even in his lokik life and most of his alokik life. But now that he has grown old the PBK sisters/mothers don't allow him to wash his own clothes. And they do so not to get any favour but to express their love and respect. So, what is wrong in that?

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 15 Mar 2011

I don't think religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism had any major presence in Russia except in the last century. Even in case of Buddhism, I think it may have a small presence in the remote Eastern part of Russia. So, except Christianity and Islam (most of the Islamic states have also ceded from the esrstwhile USSR) I don't think there is a major presence of any other religion in Russia and hence it cannot be called as multi-religious as India.
Religions in India
Hindu 80.46%
Muslim 13.43%
Christian 2.34%
Sikh 1.87%
Buddhist 0.77%
Jain 0.41%
Animist, others 0.65%

See at the ratio and calculate. Then, compare with data relevant for Russia and America and you will see that the ratio of variety remains on the similar level.
Today the same Dadis and Didis are speaking at national and international fora rubbing shoulders with heads of States. So, did ShivBaba spoil their life by keeping them away from worldly education?
Dadis and Didis which you mentioned keep repeating the same slogans. They are not able to participate in any discussion which requires a bit deeper knowledge of the world, its history, cultures and religions or scientific matters. They keep repeating their empty slogans. They are not able to answer any challenging questions. Some of them read and write with difficulties. Do you call it education?
Girls and mothers in AIVV ashram mostly have no ideas how world looks like, they know very poor history, geography, cultures, religions. Many cannot even read and write. Those with whom I spoke used to say that they don't need to learn. Resultsof this is such that they repeat slogans, stereotypes and false information without a blink.
Baba has said that it is ideal for yogis to sleep only for four hours or to wake up at Amrit Vela. But if someone's lifestyle does not permit this, he is free to sleep any number of hours he wishes. Many a times I am not able to wake up at Amrit Vela. What is the use if I spend the remaining life repenting for those lost moments? Baba always says that we should make spiritual efforts in as easy way as possible. He keeps repeating the phrase 'sahaj miley so doodh sam....' (whatever is achieved easily is like milk, whatever is achieved on seeking is like water and whatever is achieved by snatching from someone forcibly is like blood). So, let everyone make efforts according to his/her comfort/interest.
In the classes Baba even shouts that people don't wake up at 2-3 and sleep 4 hours. I have heard almost all classes and vartas - I have never heard him saying "if someone's lifestyle does not permit this, he is free to sleep any number of hours he wishes". So obviously he preaches something else and lives something else.
You may feel hurt, but I would like to state that only the one who follows truth in his/her own life has a right to point fingers at others. Your writings on this forum prove to a great extent that you are not revealing the truth (even to the extent other members have revealed, like one's gender, language or nationality) on this forum. I don't know the your aim and objective in hiding even such non-harmful information, but it definitely casts a doubt on your honesty in defaming Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit. I would like to repeat that I am not asking you to reveal your name, address, etc. I hope you will think calmly on this issue.
I repeat - I revealed my ID frankly once. Your choice is to believe or not. I don't find useful to label myself with all those stickers "gender, language or nationality" - people seeig them will start filter and label everything what you say even more they do no. Moreove, I do not feel I belong to any nation, language, even gender and I do not want to identify with any.
My goal is not to defame Baba - I am looking for the truth and I believed very much in Baba's words. When I discovered how much utrue things he says and how much ambiguties, controversies and contradictions with even the basic facts verifiable in the world he says and how smartly he manipulates (consciously and unconsciously), I was shocked. Sometimes I think that if God is to behave and speak like Baba does, I would doubt if God exists at all.


Last, let me present an example:
(I was a witness) A student asks Baba: "Why doesn't Baba wake up in the morning for Amrit Vela and why Baba sleeps during the day, despite saying that we should wake up in the morning and sleep 4-5 hours and not sleep during the day?" Baba answers: "Does ShivBaba also have to make purushart?"

For me - a great example of how Baba says about himself that 1. he is ShivBaba (Shiva is in him)2. Baba doesn't undergo the Shrimat.

I do not say it to defame him. I don't want blind faith plus I identify myself with eaglitarian point of view, meaning all, no matter of satus undergo the same rules.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 15 Mar 2011

anu wrote:I repeat - I revealed my ID frankly once. Your choice is to believe or not. I don't find useful to label myself with all those stickers "gender, language or nationality" - people seeig them will start filter and label everything what you say even more they do no. Moreove, I do not feel I belong to any nation, language, even gender and I do not want to identify with any.
The excuses being given by you are same as the allegations being levelled by you against Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. Anyway, it is your choice.
My goal is not to defame Baba
But your writings don't appear so.
I identify myself with eaglitarian point of view, meaning all, no matter of satus undergo the same rules.
But I am constrained to state that when you cannot speak the truth yourself, you have no right to call others as liars. You can continue to defame Baba in the search for truth.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 15 Mar 2011

But I am constrained to state that when you cannot speak the truth yourself, you have no right to call others as liars. You can continue to defame Baba in the search for truth.
Dear Arjun
I have noticed that you accuse of defaming Baba everyone who points at ambiguities, controversions and obvious untruth that Baba contains in his teachings and openly reveals them. I give no allegation as you accused me. I have witnessed almost everything I stated in all my posts. In the cases I personally was not a witness, I can direct you or anyone who will demand it to a person who temporarily lived in ashram and became a witness.

So, please, do not call me the one who speaks untruth as you did and do not call me someone who defames. Otherwise, provide me with proofs that I lie and defame Baba please.

Blind faith ad blind obedience, despite of providing them with facts and proofs, guide people like you and make them hide or deny facts and keep others in ignorance and false praise of an idol. For me your words remain another poof that AIVV students behave very similar to BK - blindness and trials to hide and deny what facts say. You repeatedly twist facts and try to interpret every uncomfortable points in favor of AIVV's living idol. I feel ashamed that people who I believed can be witnesses of the truth turn out to be unable to admit basic facts and keep arguing. If all this happens in the name of SAT CIT ANAND, and that behind all this there is the one who is the ocean of virtues, knowledge and mercy, I tell you that i do not understand this.

One of the points to recognise God claimed by AIVV is that God does not violate any law.

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:I feel ashamed that people who I believed can be witnesses of the truth turn out to be unable to admit basic facts and keep arguing.
Now you have come out with the truth (beyond this forum) and the untruth (on this forum). I can very well understand the events and persons that you are referring to. Now I know beyond doubt who you are and you already knew me even before joining this forum as anu. So, I can repeat the same statement that you have made above 'I am sorry to know that the person who was fighting for truth is now taking the support of untruth (at least regarding his/her identity) for the cause of truth'.

I repeat once again that I do not wish you to reveal your name and address. Just the truth about your nationality or language or gender would have been sufficient for us to trust you.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 16 Mar 2011

anu wrote:So, please, do not call me the one who speaks untruth as you did and do not call me someone who defames. Otherwise, provide me with proofs that I lie and defame Baba please.
The proofs are already available in your writings in this thread. I do not wish to repeat or go into the details. You are free to have any belief.
I feel ashamed that people who I believed can be witnesses of the truth turn out to be unable to admit basic facts and keep arguing.
I have already admitted whatever I could admit (in respect of issues like Baba's sleep, his views on education, his personal work, etc.). What more do you want me to admit? It is not necessary that whatever you perceive as truth is truth for others too. You want us not to have blindfaith in Baba but you expect the same from us in respect of whatever you say. Is this justified?

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Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 16 Mar 2011

Now you have come out with the truth (beyond this forum) and the untruth (on this forum). I can very well understand the events and persons that you are referring to. Now I know beyond doubt who you are and you already knew me even before joining this forum as anu. So, I can repeat the same statement that you have made above 'I am sorry to know that the person who was fighting for truth is now taking the support of untruth (at least regarding his/her identity) for the cause of truth'.

I repeat once again that I do not wish you to reveal your name and address. Just the truth about your nationality or language or gender would have been sufficient for us to trust you.

Arjun, I have no idea how you understand English and the sentence which you quoted. I do not know you and did not kow you. Once, after you sent me an e-mail and requested my data, I even asked one member of the forum who you are. By saying "I feel ashamed that people who I believed can be witnesses of the truth turn out to be unable to admit basic facts and keep arguing" I refer to Baba and his court to whom I directed my serious doubts. Regarding you - I do not know you, so I cannot say anything.

Who and what do you mean "...would have been sufficient for us to trust you." Who are those "us" who do't trust me? And why should I want their trust. Do I trust them.

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