AIVV changes facts in publications

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AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 02 May 2011

I would like to present you just an example of "innocent" modifications practiced by AIVV.

Please compare how dates and some crucial words change according to the need of interpretation, when time passes on and old predictions don't come true.


The Trimurti Advance / AIVV booklet on the Trimurti released after 2006

Chapter Karyakal
"The work of the second machinery which changes the Brahmins into deities starts from 76’-77’. This work too is completed till 2006-2007. Baba has given hints about this in many Murlis. For example:
1. It takes 50-60 years in order to establish the whole capital. (SM 24.07.72; 25.07.75 page 2 beginning)
2. Your Yagya (of knowledge) lasts for 50 years. (SM 11.05.75 page 2 middle)
3. It is the longest lasting government of 50-60 years. (SM 5.06.75)

So, it can be estimated that the time of work of Vishvanath Shankar in the form of the direct Father in order to give inheritance numberwise especially to us Brahmins lasts from 76’/77’ till 2007."


The Trimurti Advance / AIVV booklet on the Trimurti edition available in late 90’ties


"The work of the second machinery which changes the Brahmins into deities starts from 76’-77’. This work too is completed till year 97. Baba has given hints about this in many Murlis. For example:
4. It takes 50-60 years in order to establish the whole capital. (SM 24.07.72; 25.07.75 page 2 beginning)
5. Your Yagya (of knowledge) lasts for 50 years. (SM 11.05.75 page 2 middle)
6. It is the longest lasting government of 50-60 years. (SM 5.06.75)

So, it can be estimated that the time of work of Vishvanath Shankar in the form of the direct Father in order to give inheritance numberwise especially to us Brahmins lasts from 76’/77’ till year 87, 10 years and in generally to the entire world till year 97, 20 years."

For Hindi version, you may refer to the attachment
AIVV changes of dates.pdf
(30.86 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
and correct my translation, where it's needed.
I might have made some mistakes, particularly in DATES. Nevertheless, I think that it is a good habit to check dates and be accurate in numbers, no matter what AIVV and arjun preach about being obssessed with dates.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 03 May 2011

Om Shanti. AIVV has never changed ShivBaba's words just like BKs do. There can be refining and changing in knowledge contained in the literature based on the clarification being given by ShivBaba to the PBKs. The following Murli points support refining and changing in knowledge:

In future Baba will tell many things. If he reveals everything now then what will he reveal in future? (25.9.73, pg.4)

Baba is the bestower of divine vision, isn’t it? He keeps getting new pictures prepared. Once a picture is prepared and then points are revealed. Then correction is required. (19.9.73, pg.3)

Baba explains that Gita (a compilation of Murli points) is printed. So it should be printed in such a way that new points could be added. That Gita (Sanskrit Gita of Hindus) has been finished completely. This Gita does not finish completely. Until we are alive you have to study till the end. Points will be revealed and will be added. (4.10.73, pg.2)

Children will ask, “Why did you not reveal earlier that the Supreme Soul is like a point?” Father says, “At that time the role of revelation was not there.” One cannot say that why was this not revealed earlier. Arey! Why do you not study for ICS earlier? There are rules for studies also, isn’t it? (12.6.71, pg.2)

Day by day you children will get deeper directions also. Did Baba speak about the soul being a point earlier? Now he explains that remember as a point. In future many more new points will be revealed. Day by day there will be improvement. (28.2.69, pg.2)

Father keeps narrating new points day by day. So what is required? True Gita should be prepared. Then its first volume, second volume, third volume should be released. You can publish this Gita in any newspaper. ...... Day by day new points are narrated. So the points from Baba’s Murli should be collected. Then a True Gita should be released containing some old points and some new points. (13.3.75, pg.1-2)

The last point is most important and this is being followed in AIVV.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 03 May 2011

arjun wrote:Om Shanti. AIVV has never changed ShivBaba's words just like BKs do. There can be refining and changing in knowledge contained in the literature based on the clarification being given by ShivBaba to the PBKs. The following Murli points support refining and changing in knowledge:[...]
Great danger hides behind opinions like this one presented by arjun. According to this opinion new points which are supposed to be narrated by the Father are to become a reason of cancelling previous intepretation. They become reason of not a deeper undertanding, but of cancelling what what said previously, like in the exaple given by me. Great! So, let's ask the question, which of the above mentioned versions delivered by Virendra Dev Dixit is true? The first one or the second one? By no means both they can be true, because they are mutually contradictory. Which date prauced by Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is true: 1987? 1997? or 2007? Recently 2007 was change into 2018. And everything based on the same calculation of Confluence Age lasting for 40-50 years. When I came to knowledge Baba taught be that the year 97 was the margin and the end of the second machinery and that the entire work was to be completed by that time. Then, suddendly, it was cancelled and changed for 2007 . I would be grateful if I could see the results of that second machinery to end in 97 or 2007. I would be really grateful. AIVV counts every word of BKIVV; publications spread in the internet by PBKs criticise strongly BKIVV. But they fail to notice that they themselves not only do the same but also justify their right to do this.

In the same way as year 97 was cancelled and change in 2007 and now in 2018, the population of the world first was counted as 5 billions, then changed into 6-7 billions to be in 2036. However, the population is already over 6,9 billions; so the numbers need a quick change.

I find this inclination to cancel previous points and interpretations and justify it by freely interpreted SM points presented by arjun dangerous. This inclination can be found as the basis of various cult groups, of violent political and religious regimes. Their leaders apply exactly the same practice as that presented by arjun above as the practice af AIVV.

Many of AIVV students blindly agree with all cancelations, changes, new dates etc. replacing old ones. Quite a numerous group of AIVV students hardly writes, reads and counts or hardly have chance to compare how versions keep changing over time and how stereotypical, shallow and untrue various statements in AIVV doctrines remain and to what extent it remains mutually contradictory.

If one days it turns out this all really remains under God's guidence and remains supervised by Shiva the Supreme Father and that this is the way of God, I will admit that I haven't known nothing of God ever, absolutely nothing and that I wrong in all my thoughts about God that His way somehow must be different from a typical human way.

So far, I express my deep dissapointment with how AIVV manage the information. Let it be my last words. If anyone, any new or old student or anyone who searches about AIVV would like to know more about their methods, doctrine, he/she may e-mail me directly at tarunmittala[at]hotmail.com
I do not wish discuss here facts which are repeatedly twisted and reinterpreted by a person like arjun is such way so that AIVV is justified in everything whatever they do. Arjun, in my opinion, presents very fanatical and biased attitude through which he always tried to justifiy AIVV and mislead people in the favour of AIVV. In my opinion AIVV remains as crooked and dishonest as BKIVV; only their range might differ a bit.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 04 May 2011

anu wrote:I do not wish discuss here facts which are repeatedly twisted and reinterpreted by a person like arjun is such way so that AIVV is justified in everything whatever they do. Arjun, in my opinion, presents very fanatical and biased attitude through which he always tried to justifiy AIVV and mislead people in the favour of AIVV. In my opinion AIVV remains as crooked and dishonest as BKIVV; only their range might differ a bit.
Thanks for your opinion about me. You are free to air your views on this forum whenever you wish. But it would be very kind of you if you could intimate when you underwent bhatti at Kampil (your above post suggests that you became a PBK before 1997) so that we could find out whether any PBK named Tharun Mitthal exists in a foreign country.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by shivsena » 04 May 2011

ANU wrote:Great danger hides behind opinions like this one presented by arjun. According to this opinion new points which are supposed to be narrated by the Father are to become a reason of cancelling previous intepretation. They become reason of not a deeper undertanding, but of cancelling what what said previously, like in the exaple given by me. Great! So, let's ask the question, which of the above mentioned versions delivered by Veerendra Dev Dixit is true? The first one or the second one? By no means both they can be true, because they are mutually contradictory. Which date prauced by Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit is true: 1987? 1997? or 2007? Recently 2007 was change into 2018. And everything based on the same calculation of Confluence Age lasting for 40-50 years. When I came to knowledge Baba taught be that the year 97 was the margin and the end of the second machinery and that the entire work was to be completed by that time. Then, suddendly, it was cancelled and changed for 2007 . I would be grateful if I could see the results of that second machinery to end in 97 or 2007. I would be really grateful. AIVV counts every word of BKIVV; publications spread in the internet by PBKs criticise strongly BKIVV. But they fail to notice that they themselves not only do the same but also justify their right to do this.
Dear anu.

When the much-awaited predicted destruction did not manifest in 1976, then in one Vani 18-1-77, BapDada clearly narrated that vinash ki date cannot be fixed, but in AK we see that various dates of vinash and the arrival of Vedanti are being predicted and changed...so how can BapDada say one thing in Vanis and keep on doing just the opposite in practical.(this is what PBKs do not give a thought to.)

shivsena.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 04 May 2011

shivsena wrote:When the much-awaited predicted destruction did not manifest in 1976, then in one Vani 18-1-77, BapDada clearly narrated that vinash ki date cannot be fixed, but in AK we see that various dates of vinash and the arrival of Vedanti are being predicted and changed...so how can BapDada say one thing in Vanis and keep on doing just the opposite in practical.(this is what PBKs do not give a thought to.)
As long as Brahma Baba was alive ShivBaba used to say through him that children you will not see the next Diwali (festival of lights). And that way he sustained the brahmin family for many years. But you don't question those events because the narrator of those Murlis (Om Radhey according to you) has left his/her body and is no more accountable. But here, if a clarification is being given about the dates of destruction in 1976 and 2000, you say that it is a lie.

From the time Murlis began to be narrated brahmins knew that the Copper Age is for 100 years; still they kept on asking Baba when will destruction take place; they were not interested in transformation but only in destruction. In a way they wanted to send back ShivBaba as soon as possible. Similarly, you are not interested in enjoying every moment with ShivBaba in this Copper Age but only in sending back ShivBaba to the Soul World so that you can influence others with your own churnings and use the name of Om Radhey Mama (who cannot defend herself) to give it a look of authenticity.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 04 May 2011

arjun wrote:You are free to air your views on this forum whenever you wish. But it would be very kind of you if you could intimate when you underwent bhatti at Kampil (your above post suggests that you became a PBK before 1997) so that we could find out whether any PBK named Tharun Mitthal exists in a foreign country.
When uncomfortable questions are asked AIVV students use different logic and change the track of discussion. Do you propose me a kind of exchange? I will reveal my date of batti and you will answer which date of the mentioned above is true? I don't see any need to reveal any more details about me to arjun. Go and search in archives and you will find out.

Why do you people deceive like BKs? Why do you state firmly on the basis of SM points that the end of 2nd machinery end in 1997 and then based on the same points you remove "1997" from the publications and put 2007; then remove 2007 and put 2018? In my opinion, this looks like a wicked manipulation which you cover by selected aspects of your doctrine. Is this supposed to be the TRUTH indeed and the way of God indeed?

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by pbkindiana » 04 May 2011

Anu wrote:
Why do you people deceive like BKs? Why do you state firmly on the basis of SM points that the end of 2nd machinery end in 1997 and then based on the same points you remove "1997" from the publications and put 2007; then remove 2007 and put 2018? In my opinion, this looks like a wicked manipulation which you cover by selected aspects of your doctrine. Is this supposed to be the TRUTH indeed and the way of God indeed?
PBKs never deceive anyone and when dates are given, then it is referred to selected souls as it is said 'numberwise', as the work of changing brahmins to deities is not done equally for everyone.

imdie.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 04 May 2011

This:
nivi wrote:PBKs never deceive anyone and when dates are given, then it is referred to selected souls as it is said 'numberwise', as the work of changing Brahmins to deities is not done equally for everyone.
remain totally in contradiction with this
PBK publication of the Trimurti Advance after 2006 wrote:The work of the second machinery which changes the Brahmins into deities starts from 76’-77’. This work too is completed till 2006-2007. [...] So, it can be estimated that the time of work of Vishvanath Shankar in the form of the direct Father in order to give inheritance numberwise especially to us Brahmins lasts from 76’/77’ till 2007.
together with this:
PBK publication of the same Trimurti Advance in late 90-ties wrote:"The work of the second machinery which changes the Brahmins into deities starts from 76’-77’. This work too is completed till year 97. Baba has given hints about this in many Murlis. [...] So, it can be estimated that the time of work of Vishvanath Shankar in the form of the direct Father in order to give inheritance numberwise especially to us Brahmins lasts from 76’/77’ till year 87, 10 years and in generally to the entire world till year 97, 20 years."
Documents speak for themselselves as to who deceives. PBKs may shut people's mouth and indoctrinate them not to reveal what PBKs taught in late 90-ties, but what will they do with publications? Will they remove them, burn them or delete them? Don't they have this little honour to face facts which they not only taught but also printed, distributed among students and admitt that they taught lies? Numberwise giving inheritance ended in 1997 according to AIVV at that time. I wish I could see how it had happened and not read AIVV bleaking weak slogans contradictory to facts. It sounds similar to how blind defenders and followers of regimes bleak for their liders.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 04 May 2011

anu wrote:When uncomfortable questions are asked AIVV students use different logic and change the track of discussion. Do you propose me a kind of exchange? I will reveal my date of batti and you will answer which date of the mentioned above is true? I don't see any need to reveal any more details about me to arjun. Go and search in archives and you will find out.
You may be a businessman/woman, but I am not. Although you may be lying in regard to your identity right from the beginning, we have answered/responded to almost every topic that you have raised here. I even discussed so many of your questions with Baba in person. But you are not ready to answer our single question related to your identity. I just want to confirm your name and gender that you have revealed and for that we require the date/month/year when you underwent bhatti. That will be enough to prove whether you are speaking truth or lies. As far as I know there is no such PBK with the name 'Tharun Mitthal' outside India.

I am not trying to change the track of discussion. I have never asked you to stop raising questions. I just want your pursuit of truth to be based on the foundation of truth. When your foundation itself is false, you will never be able to achieve truth. I assure you that I will not reveal your original name on this forum if you answer the above question.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 04 May 2011

arjun wrote:As far as I know there is no such PBK with the name 'Tharun Mitthal' outside India. I am not trying to change the track of discussion. I have never asked you to stop raising questions. I just want your pursuit of truth to be based on the foundation of truth. When your foundation itself is false, you will never be able to achieve truth. I assure you that I will not reveal your original name on this forum if you answer the above question.
So you are trying to tell me that you are able to trace my life track since I did batti till now, so that you state that I am not where I am now? You are keeping watch on all PBKs who did batti and check where they live, where they travel, what they do? And based on this you are asking me to talk to you in secret to tell you something what you do not believe in?

You are accusing me repeatedly of lies in ID, no matter how much damage to cause by this. And you keep forgetting that your teacher daily uses false ID and uses forged documents which you call the basis and foundation of the TRUTH. Hardly I could come across a better example of hypocrisy. I think that you have projected what your teacher does on me and assume that I do the same what he does.

I admit that the methods you as an AIVV student use are like methods right from the Cheka. They used to speak to people exactly like this and records of that can be checked: "Tell us that you were this and this to us, tell us and we will protect you and keep all this secret." Find out what Cheka was and you will understand, maybe....

If I were to lie and hide my real ID, like you assume, I would do it. I don't know what you are trying to prove and who you are at all, by I will not trust any single word of yours henceforth. These methods you, your teachers, your organisation are applying, in my opinion, are black methods. I understand that for you it doesn't matter what the person says and what facts he/she presents. For you, it matters what labels he/she wears so that you could control the track; and when something doesn't suit, you are ready to make assumtions, accuse of lies and discredit what the person says. Sorry, I will not play this game with you. It is awful to me.
arjun wrote:I just want your pursuit of truth to be based on the foundation of truth.
I assure you that it is based on the right foundation. You don't need to take false care of me.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 04 May 2011

anu wrote:So you are trying to tell me that you are able to trace my life track since I did batti till now, so that you state that I am not where I am now? You are keeping watch on all PBKs who did batti and check where they live, where they travel, what they do? And based on this you are asking me to talk to you in secret to tell you something what you do not believe in?
Your angry outbursts just at the mention of your ID make us all doubt your ID all the more. I have told you umpteen number of times that we don't want any information other than your gender and whether you are Indian or non-Indian. And I seek this only because the information you provided does not match your writings. Otherwise, I am least bothered about your ID. But if you do not want to provide your ID, it's OK, but you will always remain a doubtful character in our eyes.

The Admin of this forum can conduct an impartial inquiry if he wishes to know whether the information provided by the above member is true or not and whether he/she has been member of this forum with any other name in the past. Such tactics have been used by some members in the past to defame the PBKs and were traced and banned by the admin of www.brahmakumaris.info forum.
I assure you that it is based on the right foundation.
I sincerely hope so.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 04 May 2011

Your angry outbursts just at the mention of your ID make us all doubt your ID all the more. I have told you umpteen number of times that we don't want any information other than your gender and whether you are Indian or non-Indian. And I seek this only because the information you provided does not match your writings.
Arjun, what angry outburts? What do you try to imput on me? For God's sake, what do the content of my writting have to do with my personal data. This sounds to me a completely crazy of you.

I request you to state openly what you want to say.
arjun wrote:The Admin of this forum can conduct an impartial inquiry if he wishes to know whether the information provided by the above member is true or not and whether he/she has been member of this forum with any other name in the past. Such tactics have been used by some members in the past to defame the PBKs and were traced and banned by the admin of http://www.brahmakumaris.info forum.
I request the administration to deal with the person 'arjun' who directly and indirectly attacks me and imputs that I defame PBKs under some false name. He, PBK, is accusing for defamation, although in my research I use sources spread by PBKs themselves in Internet and to my e-mail box !!!

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by arjun » 05 May 2011

anu wrote:Arjun, what angry outburts? What do you try to imput on me? For God's sake, what do the content of my writting have to do with my personal data. This sounds to me a completely crazy of you.
I request you to state openly what you want to say.
The controversy over your ID was not created by me. I have explained my stand very clearly several times. But I would like to clarify one last time once again.

You wanted answers to your questions from Baba and Baba sought your ID. I requested you to either reveal your ID directly to Baba or to me through email. But you reacted angrily and revealed your identity as Tharun Mitthal from abroad. When your writings did not match your identity I pointed out the same. You became angry once again and asked me to contact Baba to confirm your identity. When I contacted Baba, he replied that you are not the person which you are claiming to be. So, the entire controversy has been created by you, not me.

You are questioning every detail of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit's life, but when I question just a small detail of your life which will not cause any harm to your security or identity, you call me crazy and what not. I and most other members have revealed the truth about their gender and nationality (whether they are Indian or non-Indian). When your writings don't match with what you are claiming to be, what is so wrong if I seek some clarification politely? I am just asking you to inform when you have undergone bhatti at Kampil so that we can confirm whether any such PBK with the name Tharun Mitthal exists or not. That will end the matter there. When you want to discuss every minute detail of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit's life, why do you shy away from revealing this minor detail of your own life which will not cause any harm to you?
I request the administration to deal with the person 'arjun' who directly and indirectly attacks me and imputs that I defame PBKs under some false name. He, PBK, is accusing for defamation, although in my research I use sources spread by PBKs themselves in Internet and to my e-mail box !!!
I leave the decision to the Admin whether I am attacking you or whether you are attacking the PBKs.

But thanks for providing an evidence for your own lie. Yesterday you got angry when I used the word 'research scholar' for you. And today you have admitted yourself that you are doing research. Thanks.

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Re: AIVV changes facts in publications

Post by ANU » 05 May 2011

Arjun, you tend to twist words to make them favor your ideas; you overinterpret Murlis and whatever facts you have to face to make everything to favor you idea and make AIVV clean an spot. You have created a havoc over my ID and repeatedly accuse me of lies because you want to prove something, I don't know yet what. But be sure, once I know it ( and I will do my best to get to know it), I will do what should be done.

I don't believe what you wanted to do any more.

I joined this forum in June 2010 after receiving from some PBKs information about their discovery of Kismatram and Dada's sister with request to support further research if I wanted. I knew the topic of Pyu ki Vani in this forum and asked one student there to reveal some information connetcted with what he wrote. I was very surprised with those information about Kismatram and his wife. It awoke in me many old doubts. I kept exchanging views with few students and asked them various questions. They gave me a vast part of their studies and I continued to do my research too. The list of questions I posted for the first time was a part of that exchange from the last year.

Arjun who tries to prove something and protect the image of AIVV by all means eventually created a hostile atmosphere around me, because I question his teacher's teaching. I do it and support it with proofs. I do question the truthfulness of AIVV teachings and I have provided many clear proofs showing that they do the same what they accuse BKIVV of. Not having any respond to questions like the one in this topic, arjun twists the topic and starts accusing me of lies and falsyfing my ID to discredit my image.

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