Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Roy » 11 Aug 2012

shivsena wrote:"Incorporeal Father(Shiv) also meets the children through avaykt Brahma(Mama). Incorporeal Father also likes this company of angels very much."
The above Vani clearly antagonises the teachings of adv-Gyan, which teaches that Incorporeal Father Shiv meets children only through the supposed Chariot of Veerendra Dev Dixit. This point also raises doubt about who is avaykt Brahma and whether Lekhraj Kirpalani-Brahma is really entering Veerendra Dev Dixit as is supposed by PBKs.
If avaykt Brahma is Lekhraj Kirpalani and he is really entering Virendra Dev Dixit(as taught by adv-Gyan), then the above point should not have been narrated by Lekhraj Kirpalani-Brahma through Gulzar Dadi.
Dear Shivsena Bhai, here is my interpretation of the point...

"Incorporeal Father(Shiv) also meets the children through avaykt Father Brahma(Prajapita-Shankar). Incorporeal Father also likes this company of angels very much." [Av 18.01.87]

Imo, the word Avyakt refers to the spiritual stage of Prajapita-Shankar, not the the subtle bodied being, Brahma Baba Krishna, who is not the true Father Brahma.

"I (Father Shiv) do not enter Brahma(Baba Krishna), the dweller of the Subtle Region (from 1969, when he becomes Avyakt but not complete)." [Mu 04.11.72]

"When this Prajapita Brahma(Shankar) who is corporeal now (i.e. an effort maker) becomes complete(100% soul conscious at the end), destroys all his sins, then he becomes an angel." [Mu 20.01.78]

"Angels mean kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

"Do you think that we should also leave the body and become Avyakt (like Brahma Baba Krishna)? Do not follow in this matter. Father Brahma(Prajapita-Shankar) became Avyakt (whilst still in the body, in 1976) so that you could see the example of the (practical) Avyakt form (of Shankar), and follow easily." [Av 13.03.81]

"Brahma(Baba Krishna) who has ascended to the Subtle Regions, cannot be called Prajapita - Creation is done in the Corporeal World, not in the Subtle Regions. So the creator Prajapita(Father Brahma), has to be in the Corporeal World (until the end)." [Mu 05.11.92]

"Creator is not said for Brahma(Baba Krishna)." [Mu 13.02.75]

"For as long as Brahma Kumar-Kumari's are in the physical body, Prajapita Brahma is also in the physical body." [Mu 03.11.87]

"Now the Sun of Knowledge (Prajapita-Shankar) has left the corporeal world (i.e. he begins churning the knowledge in the Murlis, from 1969/70) and is standing in the subtle avaykt world (i.e. his mind and intellect become subtle, detached from the concerns of the corporeal world)." [Av 16.07.69]

"OK, the (corporeal) Father (Prajapita-Shankar) is the Sun of Knowledge (i.e. this role is played through Prajapita, from 1976, by Father Shiv). Then the mother (Brahma Baba Krishna) should be the Moon of knowledge. So, the body (of Brahma Baba Krishna) in which He (Shiv) has entered (at this point in the drama before 1969) is the Moon of knowledge mother, and the rest of the children are lucky stars." [Mu 11.01.08]

"This is the Sun of Knowledge(Prajapita-Shankar). This secret (or incognito) Mama(Brahma Baba Krishna) is different(i.e. has a different role to Prajapita). This secret is hardly understood or explained by anyone. The name of that Mama(Jagadamaba-Gita Mata) is different... temples are built for her. Is there any temple for this secret old Mother(Brahma Baba Krishna)?" [Mu 17.11.77]

"Mama(Brahma Baba Krishna) is incognito. Brahma(Baba) is (the true elder) mother, but the body is male." [Mu 11.11.05]


Roy

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 28 Aug 2012

To all truth-seeking PBKs.

Murli 2-10-97 says: "सुक्ष्म-वतन-वासी तो है संपूर्ण ब्रह्मा ."

"Sukshma-vatan-wasi toh hai sampoorna Brahma."

["The subtle Brahma is sampoorna-complete karmatit Brahma"]

PBKs believe that subtle Brahma is Lekhraj Kirpalani and that he is incomplete Brahma and is doing purusharth through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit....but the above Sakar Murli point narrated before 1969 clearly says that the subtle Brahma is complete karmatit Brahma...So Who is this Brahma who became complete before Lekhraj Kirpalani left his body in 1969 ???

shivsena.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 29 Aug 2012

The Subtle Region dweller Brahma being referred to above is not someone who lives in an imaginary Subtle Region, but in a subtle stage of mind and intellect while living in this harsh practical world and is revealed in the world of Brahmins from 1976.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 29 Aug 2012

arjun wrote:The Subtle Region dweller Brahma being referred to above is not someone who lives in an imaginary Subtle Region, but in a subtle stage of mind and intellect while living in this harsh practical world and is revealed in the world of Brahmins from 1976.
Are you trying to say that Virendra Dev Dixit is subtle Brahma from 1976 ???...then who is Lekhraj Kirpalani-Brahma who is narrating avaykt Vanis through Gulzar Dadi ???

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 30 Aug 2012

Lekhraj Kirpalani Brahma is still a student studying advance knowledge from Father Shiv through the body of Shankar and narrating whatever little he learns and remembers through the body of Dadi Gulzar.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 30 Aug 2012

arjun wrote:Lekhraj Kirpalani Brahma is still a student studying Advanced Knowledge from Father Shiv through the body of Shankar and narrating whatever little he learns and remembers through the body of Dadi Gulzar.
A student-Lekhraj Kirpalani(who never understood Murlis spoke through his own body), then learning advance-Gyan from Shiv(through another body) for more than 20 years and then narrating perfect avaykt Vanis(from his imperfect learnings), which are then explained by Shankar-Virendra Dev Dixit!!... a very illogical and irrational theory indeed !!!...i wonder how PBKs can digest and preach such theories!!

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 28 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:The Subtle Region dweller Brahma being referred to above is not someone who lives in an imaginary Subtle Region, but in a subtle stage of mind and intellect while living in this harsh practical world and is revealed in the world of Brahmins from 1976.
Are you trying to say that subtle Brahma is Ram's soul and prajapita Brahma is also Ram's soul from 1976 onwards ??

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 28 Dec 2012

Yes.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 28 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:Yes.
If subtle Brahma and prajapita Brahma are same after 1976, then why does Aivv teach that both are different souls. (All adv. literature says: 'Brahma aur prajapita Brahma hai atma judaa judaa'.)

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 29 Dec 2012

BKs think of subtle Brahma as the soul of Dada Lekhraj with subtle body. This subtle Brahma is definitely different from the soul of Ram. But this subtle Brahma is not the complete Brahma that is referred in the Murlis when compared to the corporeal Brahma (Dada Lekhraj when he was alive). The subtle complete Brahma is Prajapita Brahma who lives in the world of subtle thinking and churning.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Roy » 29 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:BKs think of subtle Brahma as the soul of Dada Lekhraj with subtle body. This subtle Brahma is definitely different from the soul of Ram. But this subtle Brahma is not the complete Brahma that is referred in the Murlis when compared to the corporeal Brahma (Dada Lekhraj when he was alive). The subtle complete Brahma is Prajapita Brahma who lives in the world of subtle thinking and churning.
A couple of Murli points which i feel back-up what Arjun Bhai is saying here...

“It is famous only for the Supreme Soul: O purifier of the sinful ones. He even comes in a sinful world and a sinful body. The name of the (most) sinful body is Prajapita Brahma. He enters in this one(Brahma Baba Krishna whilst he is in corporeal form) and says: I enter in an ordinary human body of the last one of many births. He does not come in the complete Brahma(Baba Krishna) who is (depicted in visions as) a Subtle Region dweller (but this complete form is not actually achieved by Brahma Baba Krishna until the end - Brahma so Vishnu). He Himself says: I come in the last one of their many births. It is Radha and Krishna who take many births. The last one of their many births is ordinary. He does not say – I enter in a pure body. God said: I enter in an ordinary body. Well, God certainly comes and explains to the souls through this ordinary body: I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul. I am not the soul of Krishna, nor am I the soul of Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar. I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul, the one who is called ‘Shiv Parmaatmaay namah”. I have come in this (corporeal) one. I don’t enter in the Subtle Region dweller Brahma(Baba Krishna, after 1968/9). I have to come and purify the sinful ones here (via a corporeal body). It is through Me(i.e. Father Shiv's teachings, through the body of Prajapita Brahma, after 1968/9) that the Subtle Region dweller Brahma(Baba Krishna) has become pure (at the end, Brahma so Vishnu - represented by the Subtle Region visions experienced by the trance messengers). This is why he(Brahma Baba Krishna) has been shown in a subtle form... The highest on high incorporeal ShivBaba is God. In order to give the inheritance He will certainly come in the (corporeal) body of Brahma. This is Prajapita Brahma; the Subtle Region dweller Brahma(Baba Krishna) will not be called Prajapita. The subjects (praja) will not be created there? We Brahmakumar-Kumaris are in corporeal form; (so the true) Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal form (for as long as we remain so). Come and understand this secret.” [Mu 24.11.07]

"The one who creates (the Brahmin religion) is Supreme Godfather through this Brahma(Baba Krishna, the mother). Baba has also explained that the subtle(world) Brahma(Baba Krishna) cannot be called Prajapita. There are no praja (in the Subtle Regions). So definitely Prajapita would be here (in corporeal form, for the entire duration of the Confluence Age). He(Prajapita) only then (at the end) becomes Avyakt(the subtle angel known as Shankar - but whilst remaining in his corporeal body). That (stage of complete Shankar) is Avyakt(completely subtle like Father Shiv - hence the name Shiv Shankar Bholenath). Definitely vyakt(corporeal Prajapita) is also needed who will become Avyakt (at the end, whilst remaining in the corporeal body). Both (stages - corporeal and subtle) are seen(experienced) now (as he is an effort maker).Prajapita Brahma is here(in coproreal bodily form) as well as in the Subtle Region (as a result of his churning of knowledge and soul conscious efforts). Prajapita should be here (in the corporeal world only - not in the Subtle Regions, or a subtle body). Definitely Prajapita Brahma’s children would also be here (in corporeal form until the end). You can tell all that the (true) Prajapita who is corporeal(an effort maker) himself, will then become subtle(a complete angel called Shankar, at the end - and be known in combination with Godfather Shiv, as Shiv Shankar Bholenath - the One who is revealed in practical living form to the whole world at the end)." [Mu 24.09.73]


The underlined section of the second Murli extract, proves that Father Shiv is talking about two separate beings... because He says on one hand that Prajapita cannot be a Subtle Region dweller... then He says he is both here in the corporeal world, and in the Subtle Region. This could only be possible if He was talking about the subtle stage of thinking and churning, of Prajapita Brahma... where as for Brahma Baba Krishna, He is talking about his part in the subtle body, from 1969.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 29 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:BKs think of subtle Brahma as the soul of Dada Lekhraj with subtle body. This subtle Brahma is definitely different from the soul of Ram. But this subtle Brahma is not the complete Brahma that is referred in the Murlis when compared to the corporeal Brahma (Dada Lekhraj when he was alive). The subtle complete Brahma is Prajapita Brahma who lives in the world of subtle thinking and churning.
If Ram's soul is in subtle stage, then who is in charge of the body of -Virendra Dev Dixit ?? is it Krishna or is it Shiv ??

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 29 Dec 2012

All three souls (Shiv+Ram+Krishna) are working through him, but for different purposes.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 29 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:All three souls (Shiv+Ram+Krishna) are working through him, but for different purposes.
And what is the purpose of each soul...can you please explain.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 29 Dec 2012

The Supreme Soul Shiv performs the task of explaining the knowledge.

The soul of Ram remains in remembrance, makes spiritual efforts, gives clarification based on its experiences and churning power sometimes (during discussions) and also tries to clear its karmic accounts with different souls.

The soul of Krishna reads the Murlis, studies through the body of Shankar and also clears his karmic accounts with several BKs and PBKs.

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