What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

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Roy
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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 14 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote:is this what advance knowledge all about(Shiva and Krishna-DL giving their own clarifications and making the whole Godly knowledge more difficult to understand...instead of simplifying it.)
Dear Shivsena Bhai

The fact that Brahma Baba has free will means that he has the opportunity to interfere, being as he is such a big player in the drama. This is just part of the drama we have to deal with... ShivBaba will make it right.

I believe the reason that Krishna is shown with crossed legs in the Lakshmi-Narayan picture; is because his path in the Confluence Age, is not altogether flawless. I cannot actually say what his motivations are, but being as he still is not complete; Maya in the form of five vices, may well be playing a role in this.

Roy

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 15 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
The fact that Brahma Baba has free will means that he has the opportunity to interfere, being as he is such a big player in the drama.
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.
AK teaches that DL does not even figure in 16108, so how can he be labelled as a big player in the drama.

BTW, are there any Murli points which prove the entry of DL-Krishna in Father Ram-VD (as i have never read in any Murli that son-Krishna enters Father-Ram)....or this is also just a hypothesis of AK which has been accepted blindly by PBKs.

shivsena.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 15 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote:AK teaches that DL does not even figure in 16108, so how can he be labelled as a big player in the drama.
Dear Shivsean Bhai

I am a little suprised to read what you have said here, as Brahma Baba clearly has a very big role in the Confluence Age and therefore the drama. His role is that important, in that no-one can become complete in the Confluence Age, until he himself reaches this stage. He may not be in the 16108, but he is the no 2 hero actor in the Confluence Age, playing the mother role or incognito Jagadamba. He will be the first deity child born in the Golden Age, and along with Mama(Radhe), he will be memorialised in the temples as Vishnu.

"The intellect of people (Brahmins of the Confluence Age) becomes directed towards(caught up in, or attached to) Krishna (Brahma Baba) or Ram (Prajapita Brahma). However, they are not God (they are the two main chariots of Incorporeal God Shiva, that play the main hero roles of mother Brahma and Father Prajapita, or Adam and Eve in the Confluence Age)." [Mu 30.04.98]

“Father (Shiv) alone establishes the pure family cult after coming down on earth. That is why four arms have been shown for Vishnu - Parvati(Sita) with Shankar(Ram), and Saraswati(Radhe) with Brahma(Krishna).” [Mu 23.01.90]

shivsena wrote:BTW, are there any Murli points which prove the entry of DL-Krishna in Father Ram-VD (as i have never read in any Murli that son-Krishna enters Father-Ram)....or this is also just a hypothesis of AK which has been accepted blindly by PBKs.
Not a hypothesis, as imo, it is clearly hinted at in the Murlis...

"Father (Shiv) takes the support of (Prajapita) Brahma's body. He has to come in Bharat(Prajapita Brahma) only (to play the role of Father, or the Sun of Knowledge from 1976). Father's birth (or revelation) is also in Bharat(Prajapita-Ram's body) only. Brahma(Baba-DL) is also in Bharat(Prajapita-Ram's body) only (after his death in 1969)." [Mu 27.07.73]

"The Father (Shiv) does not give sorrow to anybody. Father (Shiv) always gives happiness. The one(Brahma Baba-DL) who gives sorrow is born (or revealed) in Bharat(Prajapita-Ram's body), and the One (Father Shiv) who give happiness is also born (revealed) in Bharat(Prajapita-Ram's body). Bharatwasis (Confluence Age Brahmins) celebrate Shiv-Jayanti, but do not understand its meaning." [Mu 08.12.01]

"Both Baap(Shiv) and Dada(elder brother, Brahma Baba-DL) are combined. Twins are born (revealed through Prajapita-Ram from 1969), isn’t it? Both their roles are combined (mother and Father, in the body of Prajapita-Ram from 1969)." [Av 15.06.72]

"Do not be afraid: Backbone BapDada(Shiv+Krishna), will be revealed through some person(Shankar-Prajapita-Ram) when the time comes; and to some Brahmins(co-operative PBKs), He is being revealed even now." [Av 16.01.75]

"Today, Baapdada also had to become a foreigner, especially for the foreigners(the handful of early PBKs, who had recognised that BapDada was entering Prajapita-Ram at this time in 1975). Incorporeal (Shiv) and subtle (Brahma Baba) fathers had to take the support of corporeal form (Prajapita-Ram) to see the hopeful group and to meet (them) in the corporeal form." [Av 02.08.75]


Roy

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 16 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
He may not be in the 16108, but he is the no 2 hero actor in the Confluence Age, playing the mother role or incognito Jagadamba.
How can Brahma-DL be no 2 hero actor when he is not even in 108 and has not completed 84 births...as per Murlis Brahma DL was caught only for his money to give sustanence to the Yagya [Murli point: "Ek ko pakda paise ke liye"..."this ie. DL one was caught only for money "]...imo, DL has no other role to play in Sangamyug(except to donate money in the initial years)....the real adi-shakti jagdamba was Maa Saraswati who managed the day to day affairs of Yagya and controlled the Yagya as single unit till 1965, while brahma-DL failed to control the children after her demise, got a shock and succumbed to a heart-attack in 1969....there is no way that brahma DL can be incognito jagdamba as adi-shakti jagdamba is known as "asur-sangharni" and SHE cannot be controlled by any soul.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 19 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote:there is no way that brahma DL can be incognito jagdamba as adi-shakti jagdamba is known as "asur-sangharni" and SHE cannot be controlled by any soul.
Well once again, here are a few points that clearly point out that Mama cannot be the true Jagadamba....

"It is the Indians who call the Supreme Soul as the Mother and the Father. The outsiders (i.e. foreigners) say – O God Father. OK, if there is a Father, then there should also be a mother. People say ‘Eve’, but who is she? Who can be called as Eve? Mama (Om Radhe) will not be called Eve. Mama (Om Radhe) is Jagdamba (the titleholder, in the absence of Jagadamba-Adi Brahma-Gita Mata, who will become the complete form of Jagadamba, revealed to the world at the end). This one (Brahma Baba-Krishna-DL) will only be called Eve (because Brahma Baba is the true elder mother, the incognito Jagadamba), because creation (of the Brahmins or Brahmin religion) was done through the mouth of this one (Brahma Baba). Only then are you proved to be the Mother and the Father. Only one is called the Mother and the Father (and this role is played through Prajapita-Ram). There should be a mother of Jagdamba (Om Radhe) also. She (Adi Brahma-Gita Mata-Jagadamba, or Om Radhe's mother) is also a human being. All these matters can be inculcated when you make efforts to become constantly soul conscious." [Mu 09.06.08]

"Who is this Prajapita(Ram), who is also Mother and Father of all? Since ShivBaba is only Father of all souls. This Brahma(Baba-Krishna-DL) is child of ShivBaba as well as wife of ShivBaba. And this Prajapita(Ram), is both Father and Mother of all. Who is this soul? [Mu 11.12.01]

"If he (Brahma Baba-DL) is called Adam, then Saraswati(Om Radhe) cannot be called Bibi. If she is Bibi, then who is her mother? These are matters to be understood deeply. Only the Father sits and explains. In this way, this (Brahma Baba-DL) is My wife. I create you children through the mouth of this one. I enter in the body of Brahma (Baba-DL in 1947). Then Jagdamba(Om Radhe) is instrumental in taking care of them (the mothers of the Yagya at this time). Aadi Dev (Prajapita) Brahma(Ram); and who is Jagatamba Saraswati? Conscience (reason) says that she is Brahma’s daughter. So, how was the creation (of the Brahmin Family) created? It was created through Brahma. So, this one (Brahma Baba-DL) is the senior mother. Then there is Mama(Om Radhe, holder of the title Jagadamba Saraswati) as well as (Brahma) Baba (holder of the title of Prajapita) to take care (of the children at this time, before 1965/9).” [Mu 29.07.08]

"Do you know Prajapita Brahma(Ram) and his mouth-born creation (child Krishna-Brahma Baba-DL)? The one who is called Saraswati(Sita-Adi Radhe) is the goddess of knowledge (or Shri Lakshmi of the Confluence Age). She is called the goddess of knowledge. This one (Brahma Baba-DL) is Jagadamba (as Brahma means, Senior, or true elder mother, which Dada Lekhraj becomes in 1947, after Father Shiv enters him for the first time, in Karachi). So surely there would be her children(mouthborn progeny) and also her Father (Prajapita-Ram). He (Shiv) is the One who gives knowledge. So, who are this Prajapita(Ram-Adam) and Jagadamba(Krishna-Eve, who play the two main hero parts in the Confluence Age)? She (Saraswati-Sita-Adhe Radhe) is also called the goddess of wealth (as knowledge is true wealth). At that time (i.e. before Sita recognises that Father Shiv has entered Prajapita-Ram), she is not the goddess of knowledge. This Brahma(Ram) and Saraswati(Sita) then (after Sita has recognised the living or practical ShivBaba) become the king and queen (i.e. Lakshmi-Narayan of the Confluence Age, at the beginning of Ramraj 111, which actually starts in the Confluence Age itself). Therefore, their children must surely also become the masters of heaven (i.e. Radhe-Krishna, are born to Ram-Sita, after 2036, in the Golden Age)." [Mu 17.12.08]

“Father (Shiv) alone establishes the pure family cult after coming down on earth. That is why four arms have been shown for Vishnu - Parvati(Sita) with Shankar(Ram), and Saraswati(Radhe) with Brahma(Krishna).” (They form the first family unit of the Golden Age) [Mu 23.01.90]

"When Jagadamba(Om Radhe) becomes Lakshmi (from princess Radhe in the Golden Age), she is beautiful. Then after taking 84 births, she becomes ugly." [Mu 06.02.03]

"Now this Brahma-Saraswati(Radhe-Krishna) are not God. These praises cannot be for them (they are actually for Ram-Sita). Calling them Mother-Father is wrong (because the true Mother-Father are Ram-Sita)." [Mu 21.01.78]

"If the post of Mama(Radhe) and Baba(Krishna) is high, then the post of (some more knowlegeable) children (Ram-Sita) could be much higher." [Mu 14.03.63]

"Brahma(Baba-DL) only has to become vanni(wife). Baba (Shiv) Himself says - He (Brahma Baba-DL) is my vanni. I enter into him and make you my children through him (i.e. establishment of Brahmin Religion through the moon of knowledge mother). He (Brahma Baba-DL) is the true elder mother(incognito Jagadamba) and she(Om Radhe) happens to be an adopted mother. You can call them as mother and Father (as they are the main actors in charge of the Yagya, at this point in the drama). ShivBaba is called only a Father(Parampita, Supreme Father of all souls). This is Brahma Baba (the Chariot through whom the main heroine part of mother is played). Mama (Brahma Baba or incognito Jagadamba) is incognito. Brahma (Baba-DL) is (the true) mother, but the body is male. He will not be able to take care (of the mothers in the Yagya). That is why daughter (Om Radhe) has been adopted. She has been named Mateshwari." [Mu 11.11.05]

"When the Iron Age ends (in the intellect of Prajapita-Ram in 1976, as a result of his spiritual efforts and realisations), then (the subtle) Bhakti (of the Confluence Age) would also end (for him); only then will God (Shiva) come and meet (in the form of the Father) because He alone gives the fruits of Bhakti (by revealing the deep secrets locked within the Sakar Murlis, that allow the accurate churning of Gyan to commence for the true Brahmins, or PBKs). He (Prajapita-Ram) is called the Sun of Knowledge. The Moon of knowledge, the Sun of Knowledge and the lucky stars of knowledge. OK, the (corporeal) Father (Prajapita-Ram) is the Sun of Knowledge (i.e. this role is played through Prajapita-Ram, from 1976, by Father Shiv). Then the mother (Brahma Baba) should be the Moon of knowledge. So, the body (of Brahma Baba-DL) in which He (Shiv) has entered (at this time) is the Moon of knowledge mother (Incognito Jagadamaba) and the rest of the children are lucky stars. In this way, Jagdamba(Om Radhe-Mama) is also a lucky star because she is also a child, isn’t she? Even among the stars, one (Prajapita-Ram) shines the most. Similarly, even here they are numberwise. Those are the Sun, the Moon and the stars of the sky, and here it is a matter of knowledge (Prajapita-Ram is no 1 in knowledge and churning). Just as they are the rivers of water and these (children) are the rivers of knowledge, which have emerged from the Ocean of Knowledge (Father Shiv)." [Mu 11.01.08]

"Brahma(Baba-DL) is not the mouthborn progeny of Shiv (actually, he is the mouth born progeny of Adi Brahma-Gita Mata-Jagadamba). ShivBaba comes and enters in this one (Brahma Baba, in 1946/7 in Karachi - when he reaches the age of 60) and makes him His own. This one (Brahma Baba-Krishna) is also a creation (who takes spiritual birth at the beginning of the Yagya, through Gita Mata) . First He (Shiv) creates Brahma(Adi Brahma-Jagadamba) and not Vishnu(Sita-Adi Radhe). It is even sung – Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar. It is not said – Vishnu, Shankar and Brahma. First Brahma(Adi Brahma-Jagadamba) is created. Brahma’s(Dada Lekhraj's) occupation (or role) is different (to hers, Adi-Brahma's). All these matters are to be understood. He(Shiva) is called – You are my Mother and Father. So He is incorporeal isn’t He? So, mother (Brahma Baba-Krishna-DL) and Father (Shankar-Prajapita-Ram) are required in corporeal form; only then do they ask – Is there a mother of Mama(Om Radhe)? It will be said – Yes; Brahma(Adi Brahma-Gita Mata-Jagadamaba)is Mama’s(Om Radhe's) mother as well. Brahma (Adi Brahma-Jagadamba) does not have any (corporeal spiritual) mother (as her role is created when Father Shiv enters her, to narrate Dada Lekhraj's visions to Prajapita-Ram). Since this mother (Brahma Baba-Krishna) is not a female, Saraswati (Om Radhe) is called Mama." [Mu 26.10.07]


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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 19 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
"Godly directions (Shrimat) and demoniac directions (manmat) are together (in the Murli), aren’t they? Dada’s directions are different; God’s directions are different." [Mu 27.04.72]
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

Many times it has been said by Baba Dixit in advance cds that "if you mix one drop of poison in a pot of milk, then the whole pot of milk becomes poisonous"....as per your interpretations of the above Murli point, Brahma-DL is mixing his own mat(asuri-demonical directions) with the Godly teachings(AK) of Shiva....so does it not mean that the whole pot of milk(AK) is being poisoned by the drops of poison(manmat of DL) and making the Advance Party a house of poison--vaishyalaya or vishay-vaitarni nadi ie. river of poison.... and all PBKs are drinking that poison and everyone aspiring to come in 108 has to cross that river of poison.(Murli point: ''tum bacchon ko vaishyalaya se shivalaya mein jaana hai")

If you do not agree with the above, then can you please give your interpretations about, which is that drop of poison and which is the pot of milk ????

shivsena.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 19 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote: ... can you please give your interpretations about, which is that drop of poison and which is the pot of milk ????
Dear Shivsena Bhai

I did not really have an answer to your question, so i did a little research and have come up with what imo, is a rather satisfying one. I hope you will forgive me quoting from a Clarification Murli, but i think it is most apt in these circumstances...

VCD 472 [English Translation], Audio Cassette No.956

"If there is a pot which contains 4, 6 or 10 drops of poison and if you go on filling that with milk, if you empty into it new-new pots (of milk), then what will it still remain as? It will still remain as poison only. Until the evil is totally removed from this world, until all the sinners are removed from this world, until irreligiousness is completely destroyed, till then, the Golden Age consisting of a true religion cannot be established."

So you may be able to infer from this; that until all confusion resulting from any manmat(poison) that is introduced by Brahma Baba, by what he may say through Prajapita-Ram comes to a complete end; then the Golden Age cannot be established. Fortunately, we know that Brahma Baba becomes complete when he finally realises that he is not the corporeal God of the Gita... and then everyone else can then become complete too.

Although manmat does have an effect on Shrimat in the PBK Yagya... there is still plenty of truth available in order to continue to move forward. Our "immunity" from this poison is found, by trusting in Baba's promise to make everything right. But if we lose faith in Shrimat, because there may be some anomalies from time to time; then our immunity is lost, and we will succumb to that poison.

These are just my thoughts on the matter...

Roy

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 20 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
He may not be in the 16108, but he is the no 2 hero actor in the Confluence Age, playing the mother role or incognito Jagadamba. He will be the first deity child born in the Golden Age, and along with Mama(Radhe), he will be memorialised in the temples as Vishnu.
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

According to AK, Vishnu is considered to be amalgamation of 5 souls(body of VD representing Ram and 4 arms representing 4 souls) and will be revealed in Sangamyug in front of the whole world and you say that DL and Mama combination is Vishnu and that too in Golden Age where the whole world of 7 billion will not exist.

Can you explain this ambiguity.
shivsena.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 21 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote:According to AK, Vishnu is considered to be amalgamation of 5 souls(body of VD representing Ram and 4 arms representing 4 souls) and will be revealed in Sangamyug in front of the whole world and you say that DL and Mama combination is Vishnu and that too in Golden Age where the whole world of 7 billion will not exist.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

Could you point out where i have implied this, as i hold with the teachings of AK, that Vishnu is the combination of 5 souls. However, i believe there are monuments of Radhe-Krishna(Vishnu), along side Confluence Age Lakshmi-Narayan Vishnu, in temples.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 21 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
Could you point out where i have implied this, as i hold with the teachings of AK, that Vishnu is the combination of 5 souls. However, i believe there are monuments of Radhe-Krishna(Vishnu), along side Confluence Age Lakshmi-Narayan Vishnu, in temples.
Roy
Dear roy Bhai.

''He will be the first deity child born in the Golden Age, and along with Mama(Radhe), he will be memorialised in the temples as Vishnu.''....Roy.
In the above statement i thought that you are saying that only 2 souls ie. DL and Mama form Vishnu in Golden Age.....if you meant something else, then i take back my words.

BTW, is there any Murli which says that Vishnu is a combination of 5 souls.
I have a Murli which says that all the 4 alankars of Vishnu are for the last complete stage of brahmins and not for individual souls as taught in AK....only those souls who have inculcated the 4 alankars in their brahmin life in Sangamyug numberwise, will go to vishnupuri.

shivsena.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 21 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote:''He will be the first deity child born in the Golden Age, and along with Mama(Radhe), he will be memorialised in the temples as Vishnu.''....Roy. In the above statement i thought that you are saying that only 2 souls ie. DL and Mama form Vishnu in Golden Age.....if you meant something else, then i take back my words.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

No i meant as part of the 5 souls who make up Vishnu, not just Krishna and Radhe... sorry for the ambiguity in my post. There is a Murli point on this, which i have come to the following conclusion about...

"In Temples also, accurate pictures are found.(But) only those of Lakshmi-Narayan(Radhe-Krishna), (and) Ram-Sita(Confluence Age Lakshmi-Narayan). These are the highest souls who enjoy their inheritance." [Mu 31.07.73]
shivsena wrote:BTW, is there any Murli which says that Vishnu is a combination of 5 souls. I have a Murli which says that all the 4 alankars of Vishnu are for the last complete stage of brahmins and not for individual souls as taught in AK.....only those souls who have inculcated the 4 alankars in their brahmin life in Sangamyug numberwise, will go to vishnupuri.
I have yet to find a Murli point that hints at the 5 souls making up Vishnu, but there may be points about the joint role of Lakshmi(Sita) and Jagadamba(Kamla Devi), who play the combined role of Mahalakshmi...

The point you make about the 4 ornaments or subjects of RajYoga, is obviously valid. The point about going to Vishnupuri imo, relates to the 450,000+ souls who gradually in turn, enter this region or world of the 5 souls of Vishnu(Vishnupuri), during the last 18 years of the Confluence Age, up to 2036; as they attain their complete stage, numberwise.

Would you kindly post this point with a date if you have it, as it is a very interesting one. Many thanks!

Roy

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 21 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:"In Temples also, accurate pictures are found.(But) only those of Lakshmi-Narayan(Radhe-Krishna), (and) Ram-Sita(Confluence Age Lakshmi-Narayan). These are the highest souls who enjoy their inheritance." [Mu 31.07.73]
It has just occured to me that ShivBaba may also be speaking about the Confluence Age temples, or BK centres in this point!

Roy

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 21 Feb 2012

Roy wrote:
Would you kindly post this point with a date if you have it, as it is a very interesting one. Many thanks!
Roy
I will post the exact point and date as soon as i find it...i had read it last year and copied it in one of my dairies ... i will have to search in which dairy i wrote that point about Vishnu and his 4 alankars, which clearly say that the alankars of Vishnu are not of Vishnu, but they belong to brahmins.

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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by Roy » 22 Feb 2012

shivsena wrote: I will post the exact point and date as soon as i find it...i had read it last year and copied it in one of my dairies ... i will have to search in which dairy i wrote that point about Vishnu and his 4 alankars, which clearly say that the alankars of Vishnu are not of Vishnu, but they belong to brahmins.
Thank you Bhai, it will be very much appreciated!

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shivsena
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Re: What is our aim?..is to become Devta or Farishta

Post by shivsena » 24 Feb 2012

Dear roy Bhai,

Sharing some thoughts about the 4 alankars of Vishnu.
The first alankar is swadarshan-chakra:

In AK, this alankar is assigned to Mamaa Saraswati as she was no. 1 in churning the knowledge and since she is associated with the swadarshan chakra , then why cannot she be personified ShivBaba, as it is said in Murlis "sabse pahele ShivBaba hai swadarshan-chakra dhari...phir woh tumko swadarshan-chakra dhari banate hain".[" First ShivBaba is swadarshan-chakradhari..then HE makes you (108) swadarshan-chakradhari."]

So if Mama is assigned the first alankar(chakra) of Vishnu, then she has to be no. 1 soul paramatma-partdhari (personified ShivBaba) and not DL(as BKs claim) and not VD (as PBKs claim).

More about other alankars in the next post.
shivsena.

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