Cultural values and managing conflict in India

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sita
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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by sita » 30 May 2012

There are no complains for financial abuse with the PBKs.

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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 May 2012

sita wrote:There are no complains for financial abuse with the PBKs.
Yes. As far as I can see, the PBKs try very hard to follow the word of their religion whereas the BKs just change it to suit themselves and often do the opposite to what it says. That is not solely an Indian cultural value. Most religions do so.

I am sorry satyaprakash, this topic is for, "Cultural values and managing conflict in India", not your usual hate mongering. Please try and keep on topic, and make sense.

I am happy to answer that question elsewhere. In order to do so to your satisfaction, can you remind me of your relationship to the PBKs? Are you from the usual anti-PBK Vishnu Party or the someone who thinks 'he" is the real Chariot? I get confused who is who sometimes.

We could, of course, discuss BK cultural values and how they manage the conflict they have with the PBKs in India if you want? That is not very pretty nor enlightened and its been going on for decades. In fact, the whole issue of how and when the Brahma Kumaris chose to "outcast" individuals is interesting to look at.

Very village like.

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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by T.K » 31 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: It keeps NOT ending ... and so then they change their god's predictions and don't tell people that they have done so. In that is the confidence trick or fraud.

I guess if you are Indian, you are more comfortable with the omnipresence of corruption than I might be and turn around and argue, it is OK for the Brahma Kumaris to do so because other religions do too.
One prediction that presumably was false, was the time of destruction. Well, in the last 2 weeks I have heard 2 BK Seniors, BK Sheilu, Dadi Janki, say something to the effect, "in the beginning Shiva Baba would tell us you won't see the next Diwali, in order to motivate us to work hard". They did not give specific dates for what they meant by "beginning". This was on PMTV.
Point is, in some sense they are openly admitting to the statements being not factual, and also giving a reason why.
We can disagree with all of this, but I don't get the sense they are not telling people about the missed predictions - at least about this one instance.

I am not justifying BK corruption because others do it (BTW, I have seen greater corruption in the west, e.g., one that is perpetuated in the guise of public policy, but that is another topic, perhaps for another forum. But this does not let corruption in India off the hook.).
It is simple: if someone commits a crime, use the law to go after them and seek redress.
If it is matter of breaking faith, then that is just the reality of the world we live in. There are con-men all around us. You deal with them as we all do.

If your specific goal is to warn others about your perceived BK transgressions, you certainly have the, and I would say, God-given, right to do so. It might even be commendable.

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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 May 2012

T.K wrote:... in the last 2 weeks I have heard 2 BK Seniors, BK Sheilu, Dadi Janki, say something to the effect, "in the beginning Shiva Baba would tell us you won't see the next Diwali, in order to motivate us to work hard".
Except in the beginning, there was no Shiva Baba ... there was only Lekhraj Kirpalani, aka "Prajapati God Brahma", until sometime after 1950.

You see, it is another lie.

It is a kind of 'half-truth' lie that skilled and well practised liars tell when they are caught out. A half-truth with a twist (re-interpretation) to be specific. Dadi Janki came later, so much of her story is fictionalised. She is a serial fabricator, and hardened deceiver and manipulator. OK, I appreciate you are saying "being honest is not a "cultural value" in India" but should not we expect better from "one of the top 8 souls in the world".

We've studied this and at some point the Seniors seem to have sat together and worked out an "official" history ... which is entirely unreal ... and this is what they use to encult individuals with. There is no evidence to suggest what they are saying is true, but there is evidence to suggest predictions of Destruction during WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s to mid-1990s, Year 2000. They have since hidden these or taken them out of the Murlis (which are meant to be God's eternal words of truth).

These are true Brahma Kumari cultural values ... I don't blame India for them ... in which it is acceptable to fabricate and manipulate people, and hide the truth, if it is of financial benefit for the religion (financial benefit including free labor).
  • Do you really believe that a "God" uses such tactics of making false predictions to fool adherents into giving their money and free labor?
    Do you believe God would be so unethical as to hide from newcomers previous failed predictions in the past so as to fool them into giving their money and free labor too?
    Do you think it is ethical of the leaders of such an organization to upkeep such deception, e.g. why do they still keep selling Adi Dev when they have admitted it is not true either?
It is simple: if someone commits a crime, use the law to go after them and seek redress.
I don't think you understand the law. Crimes and civil disagreements are two different issues. Crimes are investigated and prosecuted by the State, civil cases require one party to take another party to court at their own expense to argue according to the law.

Therefore the victim or abused is put in the place of having to have sufficient funds, and mental capacity, to fight a legal case. Most don't and for years after leaving, most are confused and just don't want to have anything to do with the BKWSU.

For me, it is as if you are saying, "oh, if you believed you were raped it is no problem, there is nothing for us to do ... just take the rapist to court". It is as if you say, "oh look, there are hardly any rapes because so few rape victims take their abusers to court and are successful prosecuting them".

I believe that the BKs leadership knows of most of the more gross crimes or torts that go on, far more than I do, but are shrewd and practised enough to keep it at a low enough level so as to avoid inspection by the establishment. They also operate internationally ... and seemingly have no accountable structure ... which makes it very difficult to pin them down. The police, courts, governments etc all have limited resources and far more serious crimes to investigate.

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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by T.K » 01 Jun 2012

OK, this discussion has meandered away from the title of this thread. But I'll respond briefly.
fluffy bunny wrote:OK, I appreciate you are saying "being honest is not a "cultural value" in India"
Whoa, hold it pal! Whenever did I say being honest is not a cultural value in India? All I have tried to explain are some aspects of BK behavior that I believe are influenced by the culture. I don't recall commenting on why they are dishonest, only on their response to various issues people raise against them.
fluffy bunny wrote: Except in the beginning, there was no Shiva Baba ... there was only Lekhraj Kirpalani, aka "Prajapati God Brahma", until sometime after 1950.

You see, it is another lie.

.. but should not we expect better from "one of the top 8 souls in the world".
Explain something to me. Do you believe BKs are channeling God or not? You seem to argue from both sides. If they are channeling God, then you have to have faith in the message, even if not in the people. If they are not channeling God, then they are all con-men, in which case why would you expect anything better from any one of them? Which of these two is it, according to you?
fluffy bunny wrote: For me, it is as if you are saying, "oh, if you believed you were raped it is no problem, there is nothing for us to do ... just take the rapist to court". It is as if you say, "oh look, there are hardly any rapes because so few rape victims take their abusers to court and are successful prosecuting them".
Wrong analogy, again. Rape is not a civil disagreement, it is a crime. But you do have to report it if you want justice from the law. You can warn people about the rapist, but people are not going to deliver justice to you, unless of course you live in a place stuck in the medieval era.

Those who feel wronged, band together, pool your resources. Seek redress from the law in whatever shape and form, civil or criminal.

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Re: Cultural values and managing conflict in India

Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Jun 2012

T.K wrote:Wrong analogy, again. Rape is not a civil disagreement, it is a crime. ...

Those who feel wronged, band together, pool your resources. Seek redress from the law in whatever shape and form, civil or criminal.
The analogy works perfectly. In both cases you have victims of abuse ... who are damaged ... often in no state to go to the authorities ... and usually the very last thing they have any desire to do is face their abuser in an adversarial legal system where they have little value or hope of wining, not because they have not been wrong ... but because of the way of the system.

In the case of the Brahma Kumaris it is more complex because their victims are spread all over the world.

In both case, we often find that for the individuals carrying out the abuse, it is not new but a pattern of behavioural.

I guess the point I wish to make on this is that if the BKs are who they say they are, they should be better than the old, impure Kali Yugi world they criticise so much.

Resolution ... or the lack thereof ... between adherents, ex-adherents and the BK organization are another example of how they manage conflict.

Note the new topic on an alleged sexual abuse as a BK center and bribery (actually, this is not the first but the first of its kind). For me, censoring and suppressing such news ... which is what they do ... is very Old World.

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Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Jun 2012

What is the Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family and using parts of the knowledge in business services, such as the corporate coaching and seminars that the BKs now offer on a professional basis?

What is the Shrimat regarding BKs using the networks within the BK movement to find business partners and set up business amongst themselves?

I am interested in PBK's views about this recent trend in BK activity.

On brahmakumaris.info we documented many Western BKs starting their own commercial "corporate consulting" services and it seems it is happening in India too. I am looking at the Business Wing and its lists of courses targeting companies, see also references from many businesses.

As an aside, as many of these course are very vague in terms of the Knowledge, I am wondering what the PBK point of view about them is ... should the BKs be doing them, is there any point to them and so on? Additionally, what is the Shrimat regarding even the BKWSU charging for such seminars?
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Re: Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by arjun » 13 Jun 2012

Om Shanti.
In the Murlis ShivBaba has stated that children should not seek or collect money to do Godly service. If anyone offers voluntarily, then the money can be used for service.

Secondly, Baba has said that one should use the Yagya money economically.

Thirdly Baba has said that the main point to be explained to the people of the world is that God of Gita is not Krishna, but Shiva and that God is not omnipresent. But the BKs have sidelined the main teachings, even changed the original pictures and Murlis and have started offering different courses and programmes to increase their numbers and to fill their bhandaris (donation-boxes).

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Jun 2012

But what if ...
  • a) I meet you at a BK center and discover we have some interest that we could make money from, then start talking to you about business and we start a company together?

    b) We use part of The Knowledge in the services we offer?

    c) We base the company on skills and contacts we learned doing BK services, e.g. we turn what we used to do for free as "BK service" into a business?
I am pretty sure I remember the Maryadas said something like "people come to the center for spiritual progress, do not discuss business". I can imagine that a few business people would be attracted to the Bk community because they see it as a business opportunity.

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Re: Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by arjun » 15 Jun 2012

Om Shanti. I don't think doing business using the skills and connections developed at BK centers is permissible. Baba has always stressed on providing free and voluntary service to the humanity.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by arjun » 15 Jun 2012

"Baap achchi reeti samjhaatey hain. Mai gareeb niwaaz hoon. Saahookaar dhanwaan ka toh surrender honay may hriday videeran hota hai. Gareeb jhat batlaatey hain na. Saudaagari kartey hain, dhandha aadi jo kartey hain vah apnee kamaai say ek do paisa va 4 paisa nikaaltey hain. Jo daan ke shaukeen hotey hain vah dharmaau jaastee nikaaltey hain. Jo kuchch kartey hain, kahtey hain eeshwar arpanam, isliye alpakaal ka sukhh doosrey janma may miltaa hai. Koi nay college, dharmashala, hospital aadi banaai toh doosrey janma may uska faaydaa miltaa hai. Punya aatmaa bantey hain na. Unkee health achchi rahegi. College may achchi reeti padhengey. Vah bhi sab kuchch mai hee deta hoon.....Bahut manushya kahtey hain ham nishkaam seva kartey hain. Parantu nishkaam toh hoti nahee. Nishkaam akshar kahaan say niklaa? Baap nay samjhaya hai – nishkaam seva ho nahee saktee. Fal jaroor miltaa hai. Ab tumhey grihasth vyavhaar may toh rahnaa hee hai. Naukari karnee hai, sambhaalnaa hai. Bachchon ka potamail aadi Baap ko dena hai. Kitnaa bachtaa hai. Baap kahengey achcha tum gareeb ho, aamdani aadi hai nahee. Apnee rachnaa kee paalnaa bhi poori nahee kar saktey ho. Achcha, tum ek paisa dey dena. Yahee tumhaari avinaashi 21 janmon kee kamaai hai. Vah hoti thi alpakaal sukhh ke liye, yah hai 21 janmon ke liye. Aur yah hai direct. Baap kahtey hain, tumko beej toh bona hee hai. Sudaamey nay mutthi chaaval diya 21 janmon ke liye mahal mil gaya kyonki gareeb tha. Saahookaar heerey kee mutthi dey toh baat ek hee hai. Baap kuchh kahtey nahee hain. Har yek ko apney-apney direction detey hain. Tum itnaa karo. Poochtey bhi hain kharcha kaisey chaltaa hai? Thoda bachtaa hai toh usee anusaar raai dengey. Aaivel kaam may aaye. Direction dengey itnaa karo, baaki ham responsible hain. Achcha, ghar may koi haal banaao, jismay bachchiyaan aakar service karein. Hospital bahut badey-badey banaatey hain, inko bhi badaa banana padega. Bahut aayengey. Agar jaasti paisa hai toh yah hospital, college kholo. Jaisa-jaisa gaon vaisi-vaisi cheez. Kitney bachchey aakar varsa lengey – health, wealth ka." (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.06.07, pg 2)

"The Father explains nicely. I am a friend of the poor ones (garibniwaaz). The heart of the rich and prosperous ones tears apart in surrendering (themselves). The poor reveal (their life story) immediately, don’t they? Those who do business, trade, etc. set aside one or two paisa, or four paisa (for charity). Those who are interested in donations set aside more amounts for charity (dharmau). Whatever they do, they say ‘Eeshwar arpanam’ (I dedicate it to God); that is why they receive happiness for a temporary period in the next birth. If someone builds a college, dharmashala (free public lodging), hospital, etc. then they derive its benefit in the next birth. They become noble souls, don’t they? They will have good health. They will study well in college. It is I who give all that.....Many people say, “We do selfless service.” But it is not selfless (nishkaam). Where did the word ‘nishkaam’ emerge from? The Father has explained – selfless service is not possible. Fruit is definitely received. Well, you have to definitely continue leading a household life. You have to do your job; you have to take care (of your family). The children have to give the potamail (details), etc. to the Father. How much you save. The Father would say – OK, you are poor; you don’t have an income, etc. You can’t even take care of your creation completely. OK, give one paisa. This is your imperishable income for 21 births. That (donation in the path of devotion) used to be for temporary happiness. This is for 21 births. And this is direct. The Father says – You have to definitely sow the seeds. Sudama gave handful of rice and received the palace for 21 births because he was poor. If the prosperous one gives a handful of diamonds, it is one and the same. The Father does not say anything. He gives direction to each one individually. You do this much. It is also asked – how do you manage your expenditure? If you are able to save less, then an advice will be given accordingly. It would be useful in times of need. You will be given a direction – Do this much; as regards the rest, I am responsible. OK, build a hall in your house, where the daughters could come and do service. Very big hospitals are built. This will have to be built bigger as well . Many will come. If you have more money, you can open this (spiritual) hospital, college. As the village, so should be the thing. So many children will come and obtain the inheritance of health and wealth." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.06.07, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, translated by a PBK)

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Re: Shrimat regarding doing business within the BK family

Post by arjun » 15 Jun 2012

"Now this is Rajaswa Ashwamedh imperishable Rudra Yagya of knowledge. Its creator is mother and Father. (Tat-twam) So are you. You are also creators of the Yagya. All of you children should take a lot of care of this Yagya. One should have a lot of respect for this Yagya. Complete care is taken of the Yagya. This is head office. There are other branches also. Mama, Baba and you children. All of you are making your future like a diamond through this Yagya. So one should take so much care and show so much respect to such a Yagya. One should have so much love. This is a Yagya of our Mama, Jagat Amba (World Mother). The Yagya of Mama Baba is our Yagya. Yagya should be promoted so that many children come in the Yagya and obtain the inheritance from their Father. Even though one cannot obtain the inheritance oneself; even though one does not have time himself; So, OK one must give invitation to others. Its name itself is Rajaswa Ashwmedh Yagya, through which we obtain swarajya (self-rule or own kingdom). One must also sacrifice the old body in this Yagya. One must become Father’s child. Yagya does not mean a house; this is a matter in unlimited sense. It is a Yagya in which the entire world is going to be sacrificed. You will observe in future how much regard would be given to this Yagya. Here many children do not have regard for the Yagya.....This is such a big Yagya through which human beings get transformed from cowries to diamonds, from unrighteous to righteous ones. That is why Baba says that you keep establishing this Yagya. Even if a single soul becomes righteous, then it is a great luck. There are so many temples etc. Nobody becomes righteous there. Here only three feet of land is required. If anyone comes, his or her life should get transformed completely. One must have so much respect for the Yagya. Many children write to Baba that they wish to start the Yagya at their home. OK children, you may establish the Yagya bhoomi (site for Yagya). Someone or the other will benefit from it. This Yagya is very much praiseworthy. This is the land of Yagya, where sisters keep causing benefit to others.....There are many who create obstacles in the Yagya. This is a Yagya of ShivBaba. So mother and Father are together. Nothing can be achieved from this mother and Father. Everything is obtained from the unlimited Father only. He is one. Mama and Baba are called bodily beings. The incorporeal one does not possess a body. So Father says that do not become the followers of corporeal. Remember none but one.....There are such people also who think that we do not have any dealing with the corporeal. Father says Manmanaabhav. Remember Him, but it is said ‘through Him’, isn’t it? Then one must also have numberwise regard. Only those children, who are going to sit on the throne number wise, will show regard. Mama and Baba will sit on the throne first. Then we must follow them. We must make a lot of subjects (praja). Children should have a lot of respect for the Yagya. Picking up even a single paisa of the Yagya without the permission of mother or Father, or giving it to anyone is a great sin. You are children. You can get anything anytime. Why should you take more and store? They think, ‘I don’t know whether I would get in future or not’; so, when they keep such things, then their heart pinches, because it is an act against the rule, isn’t it?....There are a lot of children who have a lot of money. They are told that whenever there is a requirement their money would be used. They say that Baba, whenever you need, we are ready. Although they do not remain pure; they do not even follow abstinence of food. But they make a pledge – Baba, we have a lot of money. It will somehow get finished. Someone may eat away the wealth in between. That is why whenever you require you can use it. Baba says, ‘What will I do?’ When a building is to be constructed, the money comes automatically. So a lot of children are available at home. So such children will also attain a high post. The posts among the subjects are no lesser. There are many persons who are more prosperous than the kings also. That is why one should not create such a thought in the mind. You have promised that we shall eat whatever Baba offers us.....Even then if one does not as per the pledge, then degradation takes place.....This is a Yagya of knowledge created by ShivBaba.....You can even write on the board. The entire old world gets sacrificed in this Yagya, for which this Mahabharata war is waiting. If you wish to obtain a post in your own kingdom (swarajya pad), then come and obtain......In future this Yagya is going to become very famous. Many storms will come. It is said that the boat of truth shakes but does not sink.....One must take good care of this Yagya. If we take good care of this Yagya, then it is like pleasing Baba. Care is required in every matter. Every pie of poor people comes in this Yagya, due to which they become Padampati (multimillionaires). Mothers, who do not possess anything, give one or two rupees, eight annas in the Yagya and become multimillionaires, because they bring that amount with a lot of emotions and joy. Father says, ‘I am a Gareeb Nivaaz (i.e. a friend of the poor people) only. I have come only for you children.’ Some children bring 8 Annas. Baba, add a brick in the building with this money. Sometimes, they bring two handfuls of food grains also. They get a lot of returns. Every pie becomes a royal coin (muhar). It is not that you have to make donations to the poor people. Those people donate to the poor people. There are so many poor people in the world. If everyone comes and sits here, then they will spoil our heads. Many people say that we will surrender our life for the Yagya. But one has to be careful while taking them. If it is not done like that, then, they will come in the Yagya and create an uproar. In the Yagya one should become a very pious soul. One should be very careful. One should have a lot of regard for the Yagya - the Godly Yagya, which takes care of our livelihood. It is a big sin to give the money of Yagya to anyone. This money is for those who transform themselves from cowries to diamonds, those who are engaged in Godly service. As regards giving money to poor people etc., you have been making these donations and performing pious actions since many births. While climbing down, you have been becoming sinful souls only.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 16.03.06, pg 1-4 published by BKs)

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