Who is Father Brahma???

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shivachild
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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 23 Nov 2013

shivsena wrote:....that is why it is said in Murlis :"Teri gat-mat tu hi jaane aur naa jaane koi" (Meaning that only 108 shivshaktis will know Maa-adi-shakti-jagdamba-Mama as personified ShivBaba )
Dear Shivsena,
Av. Vani dated 18.01.1985 says,"Father Shiva continues to play and incognito role, so that he may be revealed through the Shaktis. He reveals the Shaktis as the embodiment of victory in front of the world."

According to this point Father Shiva will be revealed through Shivshaktis; And his role will remain incognito till end.

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 24 Nov 2013

Great points shivachild Bhai!

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 27 Nov 2013

shivachild wrote:1.BapDada comes from supreme abode:Here Dada means the Grandfather (Father Shiv)
2.BapDada comes from Subtle Region: Here Dada means Big Brother (Father Brahma=Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani)

Now, who is 'Bap' in BapDada? This 'Bap' as per my churning is No. 1 ShivShakti=Mama-Om-Radhey-Jagdamba
BapDada also mean 'Father Shiv' + 'Father Brahma'

Av. Vani dated 23.01.1969 says,"Now, also, do not think that Baba is here, and Dada is not, or that Dada is here and Baba is not. Both of us are one: we cannot be separated from one another."

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 28 Nov 2013

"Father Shiva continues to play and incognito role, so that he may be revealed through the Shaktis. He reveals the Shaktis as the embodiment of victory in front of the world."
Av. Vani daetd 05.02.1972 says,"It is the children's duty to be revealed in a practical form, but the Father's duty is to be the backbone, and to be the helper in an incognito way."

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 28 Nov 2013

shivachild wrote:Av. Vani daetd 05.02.1972 says,"It is the children's duty to be revealed in a practical form, but the Father's duty is to be the backbone, and to be the helper in an incognito way."
Another great point... thanks!

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 30 Nov 2013

From today's Murli :
shiv shakti pandav sena.jpg
Shiv shakti pandav sena

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 01 Dec 2013

Powerful message... thank you for sharing shivachild Bhai.

The question i would ask from this, is... through whom were Brahma Baba and Jagadamaba adopted?

"This Brahma(Baba Krishna) is adopted. Brahmins are (adopted) through Prajapita Brahma." [Mu 06.02.71]

"Brahma(Baba Krishna) is not the mouthborn progeny of Shiv." [Mu 26.10.07]

"Do you know Prajapita Brahma and his mouthborn creation(i.e. child Krishna Brahma Baba)?" [Mu 17.12.08]

"This Dada was not a Brahmin before (he became the mouth born creation of Prajapita Brahma). Actually there was an elder (or more knowledgeable) Brahmin. But he had left (the Yagya)." [Mu 10.07.87]

"At this time, you (true Brahmins) are mouthborn progeny, the Brahmins adopted by Prajapita Brahma. Nobody understands its meaning. If you adopt someone he is not your child, he is your mouthborn progeny." [Mu 24.03.79]

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 01 Dec 2013

Dear Roy!
Anything may be written in brackets just to make it meanings according to one's concept. Look at the following examples:
"Do you know Prajapita Brahma and his mouthborn creation?" [Mu 17.12.08]
Roy wrote:"Do you know Prajapita Brahma and his mouthborn creation(i.e. child Krishna Brahma Baba)?" [Mu 17.12.08]
The above may be manipulated as follows:

"Do you know Prajapita Brahma (Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani) and his mouthborn creation(i.e. children including Baba Virendra Dev Dixit)?" [Mu 17.12.08]

So, my sincere request to you not to write anything in bracket while quoting Murli points. Murli points are self explanatory, but you always try to manipulate it.


As far as your question is concerned:
Roy wrote:The question i would ask from this, is... through whom were Brahma Baba and Jagadamaba adopted?
Murli dated 06.02.2013 says,Shiv Baba also says: I first of all explain to My wife . Charity begins at home. This is the living home of Shiv Baba. First of all, this wife learns and then all the adopted children learn from him, numberwise.

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 02 Dec 2013

shivachild wrote:So, my sincere request to you not to write anything in bracket while quoting Murli points. Murli points are self explanatory, but you always try to manipulate it.
If what you say is true, then there would be no confusion or disagreement as to what Baba is saying in the Murli... I simply give my interpretation in brackets, backed up by several supporting points that make the interpretation more powerful, imo. Quoting singular points does not a case make as far as i am concerned. I would be interested to see you make a case using all the same points. I am not trying to manipulate the Murli, i am illustrating what i believe the Murli is actually saying... the original text remains intact and can still be analysed separately by those who wish to do so.

The points tell us Brahma was adopted but not by Shiv... because Shiv cannot adopt anyone without a corporeal medium...and that is why we are called Brahma Kumaris and not Shivkumaris. In fact we should be calling ourselves Prajapita Brahma Kumaris... that is, if we acknowledge the part of the Father, and not simply the mother.

“Many children adopt the procedure of becoming the master of the treasure through one Father only, instead of doing it through Bap-Dada, i.e., both fathers. Due to this also they miss the achievements. (They think that) 'We have a direct connection with the Incorporeal, the corporeal is also obtained through the incorporeal... that is why we will also achieve everything through the Incorporeal only. Where is the need for the corporeal?' - But such a key becomes a broken key... that is why success is not achieved! The humorous thing is that they call themselves as Brahmakumar, Kumari and maintain a connection with Father Shiv (only). So call yourselves Shivkumar, Kumari! Why do you call yourself Brahmakumar and Kumari? Your surname is Shiv vanshi (descendants of Shiv) Brahmakumar, Brahmakumari. So both of them become the Father in relationship, isn’t it?” [Av 12.10.81]

“Baba keeps explaining... also go on making corrections. One must definitely write the word ‘Prajapita Brahma’ before ‘Brahmakumar-Kumaris’. By saying ‘Prajapita’ the Father is proved. The question that we precisely ask, is that – what is your relationship with Prajapita Brahma? It is because many people have the name Brahma. Some female also has the name Brahma (but Dadi Gulzar has never been referred to as Brahma). Nobody has the name Prajapita... that is why the word ‘Prajapita’ is very important. (People) say Prajapita Aadi Dev; but they do not understand the meaning of Aadi Dev. Prajapita would certainly be here (in corporeal form), won’t he? Aadi Dev then becomes that Brahma. Aadi means ‘from the beginning' (Brahma Baba Krishna is not the first Brahma - infact he doesn't become Brahma until 1947/8, when Father Shiv first enters him in Karachi when he is 60). Then Prajapita has a daughter, Saraswati. He cannot have a daughter in the Subtle Region. The Creator is here, isn’t He? Only those with a broad intellect can understand/inculcate these secret matters.” [Mu 06.09.07]

"Your name is Prajapita Brahmakumar-Kumaris. If anyone comes inside, first of all ask them, “Where have you come from? Whom have you come to meet?” They will say, “We have come to meet B.K. (Brahmakumaris).” O.K. Who is Brahma? Have you ever heard the name of Prajapita Brahma? Yes, you are also children of Prajapita. Praja (subjects) includes everyone, isn’t it? He is your Father. Only thing is that you don’t know him (i.e. the true Prajapita). Brahma is also certainly somebody’s child isn’t it?” [Mu 03.09.05]

"This Brahma is adopted. Brahmins are (adopted) through Prajapita Brahma." [Mu 06.02.71]

"Brahma is not the mouthborn progeny of Shiv." [Mu 26.10.07]

"At this time, you are mouthborn progeny, the Brahmins adopted by Prajapita Brahma. Nobody understands its meaning. If you adopt someone he is not your child, he is your mouthborn progeny." [Mu 24.03.79]

"Prajapita Brahma is also anadi(without beginning - the all-round soul, who stays in the cycle in corporeal form for the full 5000 years). Father of all the souls (Shiv) has come in him(Prajapita Brahma). He(Father Shiv) has to come and adopt Brahma(Baba)." [Mu 19.07.73; 20.07.78]

“That one is called Prajapita Brahma, through whom the creation is created at the beginning. He(Prajapita) is the Great-Great Grandfather.” [Mu 03.05.72]

"It is explained, that through (Prajapita)Brahma's body, Supreme Father Supreme Soul(Shiv) comes (and) adopts Brahma(Baba)." [Mu 11.12.83]

"This Dada was not a Brahmin before. Actually there was an elder Brahmin. But he had left (the Yagya)." [Mu 10.07.87]

"(He) stayed for 10 years... she used to enter trance. They used to teach Mama(Om Radhe) and Baba(Dada Lekhraj) the drill (of meditation). Baba used to enter into them and give directions... they commanded so much respect. They are not present today. There wasn’t so much knowledge at that time." [Mu 25.07.67]

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 02 Dec 2013

shivachild wrote:Murli dated 06.02.2013 says,Shiv Baba also says: I first of all explain to My wife . Charity begins at home. This is the living home of Shiv Baba. First of all, this wife learns and then all the adopted children learn from him, numberwise.
"Father (Shiv) explains, that he whom I enter, also listens." [Mu 07.02.69]

"First this Brahma listens (because he is closest); and then you (children) listen. [Mu 02.03.78]

“The Father sits and explains nicely. Although this Dada had also read scriptures, etc., he did not know Me. Now I narrate to this one also... the soul of this one listens. I come and sit beside him. I teach you. This one also listens; I teach through the mouth of this one." [Mu 13.06.08]

“The Father comes and sees the face of children only once at this time. The children know that ShivBaba has taken this face on rent or loan. There is so much benefit in giving one’s house (i.e. body) on rent to such a Father. First of all this one(Brahma Baba Krishna)’s ears listen. Although you (also) listen immediately, but even then this one’s ears are the closest. Your soul is sitting at a distance, is it not? The soul would listen through the ears; so, there is a difference.” [Mu 18.05.07]

“Does anyone come to know when the Father comes? Does (Brahma)Baba come to know? No, (he) does not even come to know (until Father Shiv begins to narrate knowledge through him).” [Mu 05.05.73]

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 02 Dec 2013

Roy wrote:... that is, if we acknowledge the part of the Father, and not simply the mother.
Dear Roy,
As per your concept Father and Mother are two different souls. But according to Murli points the same soul is 'mother and Father'

Av. Vani dated 22.01.1990 says,"Brahma has a unique part fixed in the drama - the same soul is mother and Father."

Av. Vani dated 18.01.1988 says,"Brahma is the only special soul whose part as a mother and a Father in a corporeal form is fixed in drama."

Murli dated 04.01.2013 says,"The one whom I enter is also My son. He is your Father and also your mother, and so you become the children"

Murli dated 30.01.2013 says,"It is a very deep aspect to call the One "The Mother and Father". This Brahma is the Father as well as the senior mother."

Murli dated 07.01.2013 says,"First of all there is the Mother. You truly definitely have to come to this mother Brahma first. I enter this one and adopt you. Therefore, this One is the Mother and Father."

Imo.....'Father Brahma'='Senior mother'=(same soul)

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 02 Dec 2013

shivachild wrote:Imo.....'Father Brahma'='Senior mother'=(same soul)
I would agree with this in terms of basic knowledge... i.e. before the part of the true Father came into being after 1969. Brahma Baba Krishna is the senior or moon of knowledge mother... but the part of the spiritual Father and the Sun of Knowledge is not played through him... he is simply Father of the Yagya, until 1968/9. I believe the equation you have shown above, is more appropriate for a soul other than Brahma Baba Krishna... i.e. the part of Ardhanarishwar, the Lord who is half woman, is played through the body of another soul altogether.

"Krishna(Brahma Baba) cannot be called spiritual Father." [Mu 28.10.90]

"We Brahma Kumars-Kumaris are in corporeal (form), so (for as long as we remain so) Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal (form)." [Mu 03.11.87]

"Brahma(Baba Krishna) can’t be called as sadgatidaata(bestower of salvation), patit paavan(purifier of the impure) and liberator of all. This is the praise of (Ram)ShivBaba (the part played through corporeal Ram)." [Mu 06.03.76]

"Now(from 1976, the beginning of the Purushottam Confluence Age) you (true Brahmin) souls, are following the directions of (the true spiritual Father) Ram ShivBaba." [Mu 02.03.78]

"No-one should be told anything except things about Father Ram(ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram)... If you talk about anything else except Ram, then it is useless talk-gossip. You tell all souls to have Yoga only with Ram(ShivBaba, from 1976)... Enable all sitas(effort maker souls) to have connection with Ram(ShivBaba)... this is your(i.e. true Brahmins) business... just keep on giving this message." [Mu 04.05.90]

"Ram’s Kingdom(i.e. Ramraj-Heaven) can be obtained only through (corporeal) Ram(i.e. Prajapita Brahma)." [Mu 17.07.72]

"All are Sitas(consorts of Ram)... Ram(ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram) is one. Naming Sita’s husband (Prajapita Brahma) as Ram and myself (Father Shiv) also as Ram, people have mixed up both. Actually My(Father Shiv's) name is not Ram. I am not worshipped (by people) keeping Ram in mind (this is the remembrance of Prajapita-Ram of the Confluence Age, not the Ram of the Silver Age or Moon Dynasty). I am worshipped as Shiva or Rudra. The whole cord has been entangled. The cord of intellect is entangled.” [Mu 16.11.76]

"Father (of Humanity, Prajapita-Ram), whom Indians call Ram too... but due to lack of proper knowledge they think him to be the Ram of the Silver Age(Tretayuga). Actually, it’s not a question of the Ram of the Silver Age (it’s about Prajapita-Ram of the Confluence Age... through whom the part of Ram ShivBaba is played)." [Mu 10.02.75]


How can Brahma Baba Krishna play the part of the immortal Satguru, when he loses his body half way through the Confluence Age... and so cannot be witnessed as being immortal at the end, when Ram finally gives true salvation.

"Krishna(Brahma Baba) cannot be called Father-Teacher-Satguru." [Mu 17.07.88]

"When there is no body there is no part (or role)." [Mu 05.06.99]

"They tell: Satguru akalmurt (the true guru Ram is immortal, he cannot leave his body). If the body itself is not here, then how can He give the true salvation (at the end, when he takes our boats-bodies across)? Then how will He (Father Shiv) become the Satguru (without his corporeal Chariot)." [Mu 03.10.74]

"If ShivBaba doesn’t play any role He will be of no use. He wouldn’t have any value. He will be held valuable only when he bestows true salvation (sadgati) upon the whole world (at the end). Only then is He praised as Ram, the bestower of true salvation on all." [Mu 16.12.74]

"You have become the (true Brahmin) children of (the true) Father (since 1976, when He is revealed through the body of Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar). You are (then) receiving education (clarification of Sakar Murlis from Father Shiv) in the form of a teacher. At the end He becomes Sadguru(Ram, the true preceptor) and takes us to the land of truth(sachkhand, or Heaven-Ramraj). He gets the three works done practically (through the body of Prajapita-Ram, from 1976)." [Mu 15.02.78]

"Incorporeal God Father (Shiv) cannot do any work without the corporeal Father (Prajapita Brahma)... He cannot play any role (without his corporeal body)." [Mu 06.02.76]

"Shri Krishna(Brahma Baba) is the first prince in the New World(Ramraj) which will be established by the (true) Father(Ram ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram)." [Mu 24.04.75]

“Now(from 1976) Ram ShivBaba(Shiv+Prajapita-Ram) gives you directions. There is victory in the faith itself.” [Mu 08.12.74]

“If you want to go to the kingdom of Ram, follow the directions of Ram(ShivBaba, from 1976).” [Mu 12.05.77]

“The human beings do not know that Ram has come (in the form of Ram ShivBaba, in 1976, the year of Revelation of the Father). He will come in a secret(incognito) form. The Father says, those (Brahmins) who didn’t recognise in the last cycle, will never recognise (Me in the practical form of Father).” [Mu 01.02.71]

"Nobody (in the BK Yagya) knows whose memorial this rosary is. They just keep uttering 'Ram-Ram', they keep telling the beads of the rosary. Now you (true Brahmins) understand, that we are the children of Ram ShivBaba; that is why we keep remembering (Him in practical living form, from 1976)." [Mu 11.06.08]

"This(1976) is a special year that has been publicized as the year of Revelation (of the Father)." [Av 04.02.76]

"In the Confluence Age, the best direct fruit is the Father himself in His revealed form(i.e. in the corporeal body of Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) meets the children. The Supreme Soul in the corporeal human form comes to meet the children." [Av 31.05.77]


And finally this important point would appear to suggest that it is another soul other than Brahma Baba Krishna, through whom the part of the mother and Father is played...

"Who is this Prajapita, who is also Mother and Father of all? Since ShivBaba is only Father of all souls... this Brahma(Baba Krishna) is child of ShivBaba as well as wife of ShivBaba... and this Prajapita, is both Father and Mother of all. Who is this soul? [Mu 11.12.01]

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 03 Dec 2013

Roy wrote:... he is simply Father of the Yagya, until 1968/9.
imo.......Till 1969 Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani played the role of Father and this role is remembered as ‘Prajapita Brahma’. After 1969 soul of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani became an angel and now playing the role of ‘Father Brahma’. ‘Father Brahma’ will complete the remaining task of world establishment in Angelic form.

Murli dated 15.01.2013 says,"When Prajapita Brahma, who is corporeal, becomes complete, he becomes an angel. It is the residents of the Subtle Region who are called angels. There, there is no flesh or bone."

Murli dated 31.01.2013 says,"This Dada. whose body I have taken on loan, did not know his own births. This one is corporeal (vyakt)- Prajapita Brahma. That one is subtle (Avyakt Brahma). Both are the same."
Roy wrote:"Krishna(Brahma Baba) cannot be called spiritual Father." [Mu 28.10.90]

Krishna cannot be called spiritual Father.
Yes, Krishna is the deity of Golden Age.
Roy wrote: "We Brahma Kumars-Kumaris are in corporeal (form), so (for as long as we remain so) Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal (form)." [Mu 03.11.87]

"We Brahma Kumars-Kumaris are in corporeal , so Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal ." [Mu 03.11.87]
Yes, Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani played the role of Prajapita Brahma till 1969 in corporeal form . After that he became an angel and is now playing the role of ‘Father Brahma’.

Roy wrote: "Brahma(Baba Krishna) can’t be called as sadgatidaata(bestower of salvation), patit paavan(purifier of the impure) and liberator of all. This is the praise of (Ram)ShivBaba (the part played through corporeal Ram)." [Mu 06.03.76]

"Brahma can’t be called as sadgatidaata(bestower of salvation), patit paavan(purifier of the impure) and liberator of all. This is the praise of ShivBaba.

Yes, there is no praise of Prajapita Brahma due to his incomplete task in corporeal form. Only one temple in the whole world.


Roy wrote: "Now(from 1976, the beginning of the Purushottam Confluence Age) you (true Brahmin) souls, are following the directions of (the true spiritual Father) Ram ShivBaba." [Mu 02.03.78]

"Now you souls, are following the directions of Ram ShivBaba.

Yes, here Ram ShivBaba= Shiv + No.1 shivshakti since 1965


Roy wrote: "No-one should be told anything except things about Father Ram(ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram)... If you talk about anything else except Ram, then it is useless talk-gossip. You tell all souls to have Yoga only with Ram(ShivBaba, from 1976)... Enable all sitas(effort maker souls) to have connection with Ram(ShivBaba)... this is your(i.e. true Brahmins) business... just keep on giving this message." [Mu 04.05.90]

"Ram’s Kingdom(i.e. Ramraj-Heaven) can be obtained only through (corporeal) Ram(i.e. Prajapita Brahma)." [Mu 17.07.72]

"All are Sitas(consorts of Ram)... Ram(ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram) is one. Naming Sita’s husband (Prajapita Brahma) as Ram and myself (Father Shiv) also as Ram, people have mixed up both. Actually My(Father Shiv's) name is not Ram. I am not worshipped (by people) keeping Ram in mind (this is the remembrance of Prajapita-Ram of the Confluence Age, not the Ram of the Silver Age or Moon Dynasty). I am worshipped as Shiva or Rudra. The whole cord has been entangled. The cord of intellect is entangled.” [Mu 16.11.76]

"Father (of Humanity, Prajapita-Ram), whom Indians call Ram too... but due to lack of proper knowledge they think him to be the Ram of the Silver Age(Tretayuga). Actually, it’s not a question of the Ram of the Silver Age (it’s about Prajapita-Ram of the Confluence Age... through whom the part of Ram ShivBaba is played)." [Mu 10.02.75]


Naming Sita’s husband as Ram(tretayugi Ram) and myself (Shiv) also as Ram, people(PBKs) have mixed up both. [Mu 16.11.76]

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by shivachild » 03 Dec 2013

Roy wrote:How can Brahma Baba Krishna play the part of the immortal Satguru, when he loses his body half way through the Confluence Age... and so cannot be witnessed as being immortal at the end, when Ram finally gives true salvation.
Av. Vani dated 09.03.2013 says,"So, why did Brahma Baba become an angel? Why was the corporeal part changed? If Brahma Baba hadn't adopted the angelic form, none of you souls would have reached here today, because the uncertainty in the atmosphere was making the task of this world revolution fluctuate. Therefore, Brahma Baba becoming Avyakt became the reason for opening the fortune of the maximum number of children."
Roy wrote:"Who is this Prajapita, who is also Mother and Father of all? Since ShivBaba is only Father of all souls... this Brahma(Baba Krishna) is child of ShivBaba as well as wife of ShivBaba... and this Prajapita, is both Father and Mother of all. Who is this soul? [Mu 11.12.01]
This is another point that proves that
'Prajapita Brahma'(Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani)=Father=Mother=(same soul)

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Re: Who is Father Brahma???

Post by Roy » 04 Dec 2013

shivachild wrote:imo... Till 1969 Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani played the role of Father and this role is remembered as ‘Prajapita Brahma’. After 1969 soul of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani became an angel and now playing the role of ‘Father Brahma’. ‘Father Brahma’ will complete the remaining task of world establishment in Angelic form.
So are you saying that the parts of Shankar and Ram are played through the female form of Dadi Gulzar, by Brahma Baba himself... as we know it cannot be Father Shiv, as He doesn't enter a pure virgin who hasn't been corrupted by the outside world and she is never referred to as Brahma in the Murlis... nor does He enter the subtle body of Brahma Baba himself. So if this is so... how is it that both Ram and Shiv-Shankar are remembered in male forms in Bhakti marg? Male and female only have significance when there is a body involved.

"He (Shiv) is such a highest Father, so He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?" [Mu 15.10.69]

"I (Shiv) do not enter Brahma, the dweller of the Subtle Region." [Mu 04.11.72]

"Incorporeal God Father (Shiv) cannot do any work without the corporeal Father (Prajapita Brahma)... He cannot play any role (without his corporeal body)." [Mu 06.02.76]


There is no mention in the last point of the angelic Father, or a pure virgin being Father Shiv's instrument... only the corporeal Father himself can play the roles of Shakar and Ram at the end... We are told that the world Father will be clearly visible at the end... so you appear to be saying that the world Father is Dadi Gulzar! Does that really feel right to you?

“The last bomb (of knowledge), is (the bomb) of the Revelation of the Father (at the end - Shivjayanti - in the corporeal body of the complete angel, Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram - hence the name, Shiv Shankar Bholenath)." [Av 28.12.78]

"When the Father(Ram ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram) is revealed (at the end - Shivjayanti), very famous people (in the Brahmin family) become(are shown to be) great fools (because of their opposition of Him, since 1969)." [Av 06.09.75]

"Shivjayanti(revelation of Father Shiv in practical form, through the corporeal body of Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram) means the effort of children comes to an end." [Av 06.03.97]

"The World Father (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) will be clearly visible in the world (at the end)." [Av 28.12.78]


These next few Murli points all strongly suggest that Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba was not the true Prajapita... but held the title in the absence of the true Prajapita, who will be there at the end in corporeal form, to be revealed as the World Father aka Narayan aka Shankar aka Ram aka Prajapati.

"Nowadays, although people(BKs) do have Yoga with Shiva(the point in the Soul World) and they also worship Him... no-one (amongst these BKs) knows Him (as He truly is - i.e. in which form is He playing the role of Father?). They don’t even understand that Prajapita Brahma would definitely be in the corporeal world (until the end, because it is through his body that the roles of Father-Teacher-Satguru are played, from 1969). They(BKs) are confused." [Mu 31.01.04]

"Prajapita Brahma will be here (in corporeal form) only. His(Brahma Baba Krishna's) last birth is Lekhraj. He cannot become (the true) Prajapita (as he loses many years of corporeal life whilst playing the subtle Avyakt role)." [Mu 21.08.73]

"He (Dada Lekhraj Brahma) was a jeweller... (but) how can he be (the true) Prajapita (when he doesn't remain in corporeal form throughout the Confluence Age, like the Brahmin children do)?" [Mu 29.07.77]

"Prajapita Brahma is also anadi(without beginning - the all-round soul, who stays in the cycle in corporeal form for the full 5000 years). Father of all the souls (Shiv) has come in him(Prajapita, in the very beginning of the Confluence Age). He(Father Shiv) has to come and adopt the (first class child) Brahma(Baba Krishna, in 1936/7, through Prajapita)." [Mu 19.07.73; 20.07.78]

"Shri Krishna(Brahma Baba) is the number one, the first Prince (of the Golden Age). He becomes Shri Narayan when there are 20-25 years less(i.e. when he is 20-25 years of age). For him, the full 84 births (of 5000 years duration) cannot be said either (because he loses many years of corporeal life from his 84th birth, whilst playing the Avyakt Brahma role in the Confluence Age)." [Mu 20.09.06]

"Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less." [Mu 15.10.69]

"Now we go to that world (of the true Brahmins of the Confluence Age). Only then do the children say we get transformed from a man to Narayan (in this very birth). It is also a story of True Narayan(i.e. Prajapita-Ram of the Confluence Age) that we hear. It is not said to be a story of becoming a prince (like Krishna Brahma Baba does, when he is re-born into the Golden Age). It is a story of True Narayan(i.e. Prajapita-Ram, who becomes World Emperor Shri Narayan of the Confluence Age at the end). They(BKs) consider Narayan to be different (i.e. they are thinking of the Narayan of the Golden Age, who is Brahma Baba Krishna). But there is no life story of (the) Narayan (of the Golden Age - all the stories of the scriptures, relate to that which takes place in the Confluence Age)." [Mu 19.07.05]

"The Ramayana, Bhagwat etc.(scriptures written in Copper Age) have contents pertaining to present time(i.e. the Confluence Age)." [Mu 21.12.72]

"Whatever has been written in Gita, Bhagwat, Mahabharata can be compared with (whatever is happening) now (in the Confluence Age world of Brahmins)." [Mu 19.04.73]

"There is a difference in becoming a World Emperor(Confluence Age Narayan aka Prajapita-Ram, ruling over 5-7 billion souls) and an Emperor of Satyug(Brahma Baba Krishna, ruling over 900,000 souls, once he inherits the tile of Narayan from his Father, Ram aka Shri Narayan)." [Av 28.01.85]

shivachild wrote:Murli dated 15.01.2013 says,"When Prajapita Brahma, who is corporeal, becomes complete, he becomes an angel. It is the residents of the Subtle Region who are called angels. There, there is no flesh or bone."
You are taking this point completely literally... here is the unlimited version of this point...

"When Prajapita Brahma, who is corporeal, becomes complete, he becomes an angel (called Shankar). It is the residents of the Subtle Region who are called angels. There (in the realm of complete soul consciousness), there is no (awaremness of) flesh or bone (even whilst remaining in the body)."

"Angels mean kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

shivachild wrote:Murli dated 31.01.2013 says,"This Dada. whose body I have taken on loan, did not know his own births. This one is corporeal (vyakt)- Prajapita Brahma. That one is subtle (Avyakt Brahma). Both are the same."
See points above that say that Brahma Baba is not the true Prajapita who will be in corporeal form until the end... the one whom Father Shiv can play the roles of Shankar and Ram etc through.
shivachild wrote:Yes, there is no praise of Prajapita Brahma due to his incomplete task in corporeal form. Only one temple in the whole world.
That temple is for the incomplete Brahma Baba Krishna, not the true Prajapita who is remembered in the form of the complete Narayan, Shankar, Krishna, Ram and Prajapati Brahma... not Prajapita the corporeal or effort making role. This is why Brahma Baba takes on the name Prajapati Brahma at the beginning of the Confluence Age... because the name of the true Prajapita is not remembered in the scriptures... his achievement of becoming complete whilst in the body is remembered, through the remembrance of the elevated roles that he plays whilst in this stage... his corporeal role is forgotten.
shivachild wrote:Naming Sita’s husband as Ram(tretayugi Ram) and myself (Shiv) also as Ram, people(PBKs) have mixed up both. [Mu 16.11.76]
The Ram of the scriptures is not the tretayugi Ram... the scriptures relate to the events of the Confluence Age... not the Golden and Silver Age. PBKs know that there are two Rams in the Confluence Age. There is Father Shiv(i.e. incorporeal Ram), and the corporeal Father, Prajapita, through whose body He(Father Shiv) plays the role of Ram, and brings salvation at the end of the Confluence Age. These two souls together play the part of Ram ShivBaba or simply Father Ram. But in the scriptures only corporeal Ram is remembered because this part is played through a body as all roles are... Thus it must be the BKs who have trouble understanding who Ram actually is.

"When there is no body there is no part."[Mu 05.06.99]

“Shiva is the name of the Incorporeal Father, the point of light. He has only one name (Shiva), which never changes. When the forms (or roles) change, then their (the chariots') names also change.” [Mu 24.01.75]

"His soul's name is Shiva. The whole world knows this. All these remaining names are given to the bodies. (Incorporeal)ShivBaba(the point form) is called just Shiva, only His body is not visible. Shankar's name is also based upon his body(thus Prajapita is also called Shankar). Soul is just a soul. There is a soul in him(Shankar) also. But names are given to bodies, like Vishnu and Shankar. Nobody tells, "O soul!... come here." [Mu 23.03.76]

"ShivBaba(Shiv in the body of corporeal Ram) is called Ram (not Father Shiv the point). But they (BKs) have thought the Supreme Soul (Incorporeal Father Shiv) to be Ram." [Mu 14.04.76]

"He is called as Liberator, Guide, is it not? The unlimited Father takes (you) back home. What is His name?... ShivBaba! Name is based on the body(i.e. the name ShivBaba has its basis on the part played through a corporeal body - i.e. Prajapita's)... but the name of that Supreme Soul is Shiv only." [Mu 27.02.76]

"Father, whom Indians call Ram too... but due to lack of proper knowledge they think him to be the Ram of the Silver Age(Tretayuga). Actually, it’s not a question of the Ram of the Silver Age." [Mu 10.02.75]

"The Ramayana, Bhagwat etc.(scriptures written in Copper Age) have contents pertaining to present time(the Confluence Age)." [Mu 21.12.72]

"Whatever has been written in Gita, Bhagwat, Mahabharata can be compared with (whatever is happening) now (in the Confluence Age world of Brahmins)." [Mu 19.04.73]

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