Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by sita » 03 Sep 2015

Shivling and saligram match, because they match in stage. Rudra and the mala are said to be corporeal, and shivlving and saligram without a body.

In point no 5 it is asked two times - how can only a soul be worshipped? I think this is rhetorical question that implies that only a soul cannot be worshipped. Yes, when there is worship, there is worship of the soul, because the soul is the actor, but worship is of corporeal personalities, for example, Lakshmi and Narayan. Even when it is a matter of chanting the beads of rudramala, although the form is just of tiny beads, they too refer to certain souls, but again in corporeal. They are not worshipped, because the body is impure. Pure souls are worshipped. Rosary of Rudra or of Brahmins is of those who become pure, but presently they have not yet become pure, they are making efforts, their soul is still impure.

Once the soul becomes pure it detaches from the body. This is represented by the shivling and saligrams. The shivling is also depicted as golden, iron, stone. It refers to the stages of intellect golden like, elixir like, stone intellect. Obviously these does not refer to the supreme Father, who does not pass through stages. In fact, he is also not the diamond who plays a hero part, because it is among all the human souls that one of them will be the hero actor.

In the reproduced point it is said that when we come from up above we become Brahma Kumars. This is strange. When we come from up above we are pure, we come in the Golden Age, we become deities, is not it, not Brahma Kumars. But it is said about the Confluence Age. We leave the consciousness of the body in the Confluence Age and after we leave it, when we come back, still it is the Confluence Age.

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by mbbhat » 03 Sep 2015

sita wrote:In point no 5 it is asked two times - how can only a soul be worshiped? I think this is rhetorical question that implies that only a soul cannot be worshipped.
If we read it properly, Baba says, just soul (while being in impure body) cannot be worshiped. It never says body is also a necessity for worship.

It says, souls of rudramala are the effort maker(service) souls. It is the yaadgaar of Conf Age (being in the body) - just soul (while being in impure body) cannot be worshiped.

But, just saligram - after becoming pure while returning to Paramdham or the stage while being in the Paramdham - can be worshiped. Baba clearly says- Shiv ling and saligrams are worshiped.

A soul becomes worthy either by its purity or the service. So, there are three great stages here- first, braahmin (soul is doing service, chadti kala, but body is impure), and second Paramdham (just pure soul without body). And, the THIRD is deity stage where both soul and body are pure.
Yes, when there is worship, there is worship of the soul, because the soul is the actor, but worship is of corporeal personalities, for example, Lakshmi and Narayan.
Worship is of both. Pure soul(saligram) or pure soul + pure body (LN, etc).
Once the soul becomes pure it detaches from the body. This is represented by the shivling and saligrams. The shivling is also depicted as golden, iron, stone. It refers to the stages of intellect golden like, elixir like, stone intellect. Obviously these does not refer to the supreme Father, who does not pass through stages.
To become worship worthy, or to play a hero part, one need not pass through different stages. One has to do the greatest service or should have highest purity. So, even ShivBaba is also worship-worthy.
In fact, he is also not the diamond who plays a hero part, because it is among all the human souls that one of them will be the hero actor.
You may like to place title of ShivBaba on human soul. But it sadly again reminds the 'shooting' of Hiranyakashyap.

SM 6-8-83(2):- Saaraa chakr buddhi may hai. SAARE DRAMA MAY, HERO-HEROINE KA PART HAI ShivBaba KA. ShivBaba ke saath partdhaari koun2 hain? Pahley janm dete hain BVS ko. Phir tum bachchon ko. -113 [ShivBaba, cp]

= ... IN THE WHOLE DRAMA, HERO-HEROINE PART IS OF ShivBaba*....... **
In the reproduced point it is said that when we come from up above we become Brahma Kumars. This is strange.
"Only souls, who are called saligrams, reside in the Soul World. When you come here (FIRST), you become physical Kumars and Kumaris. You are, in fact, Kumars, children of Shiv Baba. You become Kumars and Kumaris when you enter bodies. You are (NOW) Brahma Kumars and Kumaris (BKs, and NOT PBKs) and that is why you are called brothers and sisters." BKWSU SM, Revised 03.09.2015

It is said that "when you come here, you become physical Kumars & Kumaris" (it is not said 'Brahma Kumars & Kumaris' in the first part-sentence but in the second part-sentence - which is ERRONEOUSLY interpreted by you - the first part-sentence refers to the outer broad Drama, and the second part-sentence refers to the Confluence Age). It is very evident from this CORRUPTED & DISTORTED interpretation of yours that you are NOT ABLE to properly READ & DISCRIMINATE, leave ALONE properly UNDERSTAND & APPRECIATE, what God is ACTUALLY speaking in the Murli. And it is such STARK BLUNDERS which motivate you to argue pointlessly and endlessly from the 'INCORRECT COMPREHENSION of Knowledge' perspective!

* - Now, PBKs have chance again to mis-interpret the Murli point- "Oh- it is said hero-heroine. How can ShivBaba be heroine? So, ShivBaba cannot be God. ShivBaba is meant for human soul". But, the next two sentences clearly prove again that it cannot be for human souls. But, PBKs can omit those sentences and MAKE IT APPEAR otherwise, only with the sole purpose of justifying their INVERTED PHILOSOPHY. Great drama.

** - But, it is actually dance of ShivBaba he says the word hero-heroine, as there is nothing that can be compared to most beloved, almighty, Supreme Soul ShivBaba. He is both maatpita....

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by sita » 03 Sep 2015

I have not got this. Which Murli point?
It was about the 3.9.2015 point, but i have misinterpreted it, because actually the souls who come in Golden Age from up above can also be called Kumar or Kumari.

I have wrongly produced the point that "I don't become worship worthy nor worshiper", because it is said that ShivBaba is always worship-worthy.
You may like to place title of ShivBaba on human soul. But it sadly again reminds the 'shooting' of Hiranyakashyap.

SM 6-8-83(2):- Saaraa chakr buddhi may hai. SAARE DRAMA MAY HERO-HEROINE KA PART HAI ShivBaba KA. ShivBaba ke saath partdhaari koun2 hain? Pahley janm dete hain BVS ko. Phir tum bachchon ko. -113 [ShivBaba, cp]

= ... IN THE WHOLE DRAMA, HERO-HEROINE PART IS OF ShivBaba*... **
Yes, I could have understood it wrongly. What is interesting in the mentioned point is that it says... in the first birth, as if there would be mention about other births too. Is it possible to post larger paragraph from this Murli?

What also comes to my mind is that a soul plays a part through a body. If the soul of Shiv does not have a body, then what kind of a part does he play? With this I don't like to diminish his importance, but indeed he seems to be so different from us, that it may be difficult to comprehend. Like we accept his role is of giving knowledge, he uses the mouth. Apart from this role, I don't know about some other role that he practically plays. As such it would be difficult to see this as hero part. A hero actor also plays a main part among the other actors, he is of the same category. Shiv is just so very different. A hero part player appears the most on the stage. This would also not apply to the soul of Shiv. A hero part faces villains, passes through obstacles and makes some heroic act, achieves some great goal. This does not apply to Shiv either, who does not make any effort, does not suffer in between, and does not become happy at the end.

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by mbbhat » 04 Sep 2015

sita wrote:Yes, I could have understood it wrongly. What is interesting in the mentioned point is that it says... in the first birth, as if there would be mention about other births too. Is it possible to post larger paragraph from this Murli?
Again you are not able to understand simple things. It does not say in the first birth. It says- first he gives birth to . . .
I do not have more of the Murli point at the moment.
What also comes to my mind is that a soul plays a part through a body. If the soul of Shiv does not have a body, then what kind of a part does he play?
Giving knowledge, giving drishti, love, etc.
A hero actor also plays a main part among the other actors, he is of the same category. Shiv is just so very different.
No need to always play part/s directly in corporeal. He ALWAYS plays role/s throughout the Cycle through other embodied souls, who represent His personality/qualities/abilities, etc., in the corporeal, number-wise - therefore He 'VIRTUALLY' plays various role/s throughout the Cycle, 'IN ABSENTIA', and is therefore remembered, revered and worshipped accordingly, as the MAIN HERO-HEROINE ACTOR of the ENTIRE CYCLE. These are very deep and subtle aspects, which can be comprehended with only a very deep and subtle intellect, and can NEVER be grasped by souls with an ordinary intellect!

Baba is the Seed, the source of ETERNAL energy for the Human World Tree or the whole of creation.
A hero part player appears the most on the stage.
No need to play only in corporeal. That is in lowkik perspective. Even there also, the acts are important, not the duration. A hero may live up to just some 30 years of his age, but there some actors would be of older age. His HIGHEST actions in the Confluence Age INFLUENCE ALL SOULS for ALL PERIOD OF TIME!

The point here is- how much you are able to give to others, and not how much time you give it to others (in corporeal). Quantity and Quality are important and not the mere duration (in corporeal). As already pointed out above, His 'GIVING', LASTS FOR ALL PERIOD OF TIME or MAXIMUM PERIOD OF TIME, as compared to any other embodied human soul!

The foundation, or the manure/earth may not be visible, but just tree may be visible. But, tree/building is dependent on the foundation. Similarly, ShivBaba may not be visible, but He is the real hero-heroine, the principal actor within Drama.

It is unfortunate that PBKs, due to their biased minds, are unable to understand Murli points, which clearly say the incorporeal ShivBaba is the highest one, many many times, ....but still put him in the corner (like giving a royal divorce to HIM - or 'killing' Him and 'burning' His 'corpse' even, and making Him COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR), and then just give undue significance to corporeal things and corporeal beings, who are just mere instruments to PROJECT Him on the corporeal sphere. So, instead of revering, respecting, appreciating or understanding God in the PROPER PERSPECTIVE, you are involved in 'worshipping' the 'projector' (through whom God is portrayed or projected)! Wonderful Drama, is it not???

In lowkik, karma may be significant, but in alowkik, Yoga(power of thoughts) are significant. So, it would be foolish to compare all the aspects of lowkik drama to alowkik drama. That is why without understanding the real essence, you or PBKs do not hesitate to criticize, defame the highest authority in Drama, as highlighted, and neglect the most beautiful, beloved Baba.
This would also not apply to the soul of Shiv. A hero part faces villains, passes through obstacles and makes some heroic act, achieves some great goal. This does not apply to Shiv either, who does not make any effort, does not suffer in between, and does not become happy at the end.
Already addressed MORE THAN adequately above, but same can be comprehended ONLY with a DIVINE INTELLECT!

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by sita » 04 Sep 2015

Again you are not able to understand simple things. It does not say in the first birth. It says- first he gives birth to . . .
Yes, of course, I am sorry, I just did not pay attention to what was written.
No need to always play part/s directly in corporeal. He ALWAYS plays role/s throughout The Cycle through other embodied souls, who represent His personality/qualities/abilities, etc., in the corporeal, number-wise - therefore He 'VIRTUALLY' plays various role/s throughout The Cycle, 'IN ABSENTIA', and is therefore remembered, revered and worshipped accordingly, as the MAIN HERO-HEROINE ACTOR of the ENTIRE CYCLE. These are very deep and subtle aspects, which can be comprehended with only a very deep and subtle intellect, and can NEVER be grasped by souls with an ordinary intellect!
Which are these souls through whom the Supreme Father plays role indirectly during the whole cycle?

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by mbbhat » 04 Sep 2015

Which are these souls through whom the Supreme Father plays role indirectly during the whole cycle?
First class hands are (through) Brahma and braahmins. During Conf Age, as well as during Bhaktimarg, when devotees woship deities, Baba gives vision of the deities.

Next comes religious fathers, saints, etc. Even today, some get visions of Jesus Christ, etc., as per their belief or faith.

Baba also says- My time till Amrit Vela is for children, from 5AM to 6AM for the devotees , then from 6 to 7 am to inspire or fulfill wishes of the scientists, etc.

That is why ShivBaba is known as 'bahuroopi' or ONE who plays in VARIETY FORMS.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by admin » 04 Sep 2015

sita wrote:I do not become worship-worthy nor a worshiper. This point from the Murli is interpreted to indicate the constant nature of the soul of Shiv, who is above birth and death, unchangeable. There is also a point....you worship your own selves, you worship your own past, perfect form. This is interpreted to relate to worship of Radha - Krishna, Lakshmi - Narayan. What about the most popular and ancient worship of the shivling. Whose worship is it, if Shiv does not become worship-worthy? Is this not also our own past perfect form?

Along with the shivling, saligrams are worshiped. We know these indicate us, our past and future perfect form when we achieved complete soul-conscious state. We know the soul is not bigger or smaller. If the Shivling is pointing to a particular soul, it is just the same in form, but why is it made different to the saligrams? Saligrams are also shown with bonds, they are bounded soul. The shivling is a completely free soul. His part is bigger, so he is shown bigger.

The Shivling refers to the Confluence Age. All worship refer to the Confluence Age, but worship of Lakshmi and Narayan comes later. Where there are deities, God is not there anymore.

Please, note these are not my churnings. Generally whatever is posted here are not my churnings, I have learned these. From the point of view of correctness, would it be possible to change the title to....Points from soul Brother "sita".
BKWSU SM, Revised 02.09.2015 wrote: ब्रह्मा अकेला तो नहीं होगा ना। प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा है तो जरूर उनके बच्चे कुमार-कुमारियाँ भी होंगे। परन्तु मनुष्य नहीं जानते हैं। बाप ही बच्चों को ज्ञान का तीसरा नेत्र देते हैं, जिससे तुमको सृष्टि के आदि-मध्य-अन्त का ज्ञान मिला हुआ है। तुम कल्प पहले भी ब्राह्मण थे और देवता बने थे, जो बने थे वही फिर बनेंगे। आदि सनातन देवी-देवता धर्म के तुम हो। तुम ही पूज्य और पुजारी बनते हो। अंग्रेजी में पूज्य को वर्शिपवर्दी (worship-worthy) और पुजारी को वर्शिपर (worshipper) कहा जाता है। भारत ही आधाकल्प पुजारी बनता है। आत्मा मानती है हम पूज्य थे फिर हम ही पुजारी बने हैं। पूज्य से पुजारी फिर पूज्य बनते हैं। बाप तो पूज्य पुजारी नहीं बनते। तुम कहेंगे हम पूज्य पावन सो देवी-देवता थे फिर 84 जन्मों के बाद कम्पलीट पतित पुजारी बन जाते हैं।

Brahma is not alone, isn’t it? Since he (Brahma Baba) is Prajapita Brahma (Father of the People), his children, the Kumars and Kumaris, would surely be there. However, people (other than TRUE BKs) don’t understand this. Only the Father gives you Children the Third Eye of Knowledge through which you have received the Knowledge of the beginning, the middle and the end of the world. You were Brahmins, and then became deities in the previous cycle too. Those who became this will become the same again. You belong to the original eternal deity religion. It is ONLY YOU who become from worthy of being worshipped to worshippers. In English, they are called “worship-worthy” and “worshippers”. It is Bharat (ALL souls in Ravan Rajya in outer broad Drama, in general - and consequently ALL RULER souls performing the 'shooting' of Ravan Rajya in the Confluence Age, after 1969) that becomes a 'worshipper' for half the cycle. The soul accepts that he was worthy of being worshipped and that he then became a worshipper. You become worshippers from worthy of being worshipped, and you then become worthy of being worshipped again. The Father does not become from worthy of being worshipped to a worshipper. You say that when you were deities you were pure and worthy of being worshipped. Then, after 84 births, you became completely impure worshippers.
"The Father does not become from worthy of being worshipped to a worshipper." This point has been misconstrued by you to mean that God is not worship-worthy; whereas, the point ACTUALLY conveys that God DOES NOT CHANGE from being worship-worthy to a worshipper, since He is EVER worship-worthy, whereas, all other souls CHANGE from being worship-worthy to worshippers.
BKWSU have also translated this point in such a manner as to cause this confusion in the minds of new or unwary souls, who are not proficient in the Knowledge, leaving room for misunderstanding, as follows:
"The Father does not become worthy of being worshipped or a worshipper."
So, when spoken language is heard by an individual who is instrumental to write same down, in the very first instance, some 'colouration' would occur, depending on the actual spiritual stage of the concerned instrumental individual; and when that Version is translated into another language altogether, it definitely would leave room for much more 'colouration' to occur, depending on the stage of instrumental souls involved in the translation - and so on. So, ultimately souls have to depend on the ACTUAL development of their own individual spiritual stage to CORRECTLY comprehend the TRUE ORIGINAL INTENT of God, regardless of all the 'colourations' involved, at any given point of time in the Confluence Age. That is why, there is no ALTERNATIVE to PURITY of the soul, achieved through ACCURATE UNADULTERATED Remembrance of God, to be able to CORRECTLY COMPREHEND the original PURE INTENT of God, in His Divine Versions.
The term 'GIGO', used with respect to computers, signifies that when Garbage is put IN, you would obviously get Garbage OUT! So, when souls MISINTERPRET the Pure Versions of God and feed same into their intellect, in the process of CHURNING, the intellect would continue to generate ONLY FURTHER MISINTERPRETATIONS, 'ad infinitum'! This is EXACTLY what is taking place in your intellect, and this motivates you to FRUITLESSLY and ENDLESSLY involve in UNPRODUCTIVE DISCUSSIONS, which would NOT YIELD the desired FRUIT for you eventually, UNLESS you REALIZE what is taking place and take CORRECTIVE MEASURES IMMEDIATELY, for your very own benefit.
The ERRONEOUS concept that 'shivling' represents an embodied soul - rather than the Supreme Father, Supreme Soul, ShivBaba or God ALONE, (acting through an embodied soul), originates from the ERRONEOUS input of the INCORRECT INTERPRETATION of the point highlighted above; and all such MISINTERPRETATIONS are responsible for COLLECTIVELY formulating a PHILOSOPHY which is EVIDENTLY in STARK OPPOSITION to the PURE Versions and PURE INTENT of God. Only a Divine intellect would be in a position to TRULY COMPREHEND this 'strange' phenomenon within Drama, (which also has its own MAGNIFICENCE within the Cycle, and is a DEFINITE DESIGN of Drama).

So your topic name, should MORE CORRECTLY be - Points, AS UNDERSTOOD, by soul Brother "sita" - which would be equivalent to the original topic name - Churning of soul Brother 'sita'. You may kindly confirm your concurrence.

SAT

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Re: Points from soul Brother "sita"

Post by sita » 04 Sep 2015

Of course, the points would be as I have understood them. What else could it be? But you are right that it is better to protect people from misconception. I would not be comfortable with the responsibility of misguiding people, so better change the title to "churnings".

For every statement we need more than one point. We can easily misinterpret one point, but only after we have collected various points pointing in the same direction, we could come to some conclusion.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by sita » 05 Sep 2015

First class hands are (through) Brahma and braahmins. During Conf Age, as well as during Bhaktimarg, when devotees woship deities, Baba gives vision of the deities.

Next comes religious fathers, saints, etc. Even today, some get visions of Jesus Christ, etc., as per their belief or faith.

Baba also says- My time till Amrit Vela is for children, from 5AM to 6AM for the devotees , then from 6 to 7 am to inspire or fulfill wishes of the scientists, etc.

That is why ShivBaba is known as 'bahuroopi' or ONE who plays in VARIETY FORMS.
Bahurupi or sarvvyapi? Because if you look at it, all are children of ShivBaba. So his children are there in the whole cycle, his qualities are there in all the children in some form. But you have rightly put it that there is a number-wise sequence in which children embody the quality of the Supreme Father of being incorporeal.

I think bahuroopi refers to the Confluence Age and not to the whole drama.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by sita » 07 Sep 2015

It is said that I am always worship-worthy, I don't become a worshiper. Worship is there of corporeal ones. So he must be always corporeal!

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by mbbhat » 08 Sep 2015

It is said that I am always worship-worthy, I don't become a worshiper. Worship is there of corporeal ones. So he must be always corporeal!
I have not heard "Worship is of (just) corporeal ones" in Murli. It is said in Murlis that "Pure things are worshiped".

But, everything is perfect as per drama.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by sita » 08 Sep 2015

Yes, pure things. Pure things when their purity is manifested.

Indeed, is one always worship-worthy if he becomes worship-worthy only for a small period in the Confluence Age? Brahmins are worship worthy in the Confluence Age, then deities and warriors are also pure, so worship-worthy. No one is worship-worthy after Copper Age. but maybe not everyone becomes a worshiper. It is said that you are the ones who have started the path of Bhakti first of all. But to start it and to practice it are different things. Like a programmer creates a program, but he does not use it. Then it is said that the more Bhakti, the more Gyan. But the one who has started the Bhakti cult, and others have followed that, he also gains from what he has done. You get payed for the program you create and others use, you can also get paid regularly for maintenance, so he would attain most knowledge in the Confluence Age, as it is said the more Bhakti, the more Gyan. So it is possible that there is such a soul who does not become a worshiper, who does not bow down his head in front of anyone, who does not follow the path created by others.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by sita » 12 Sep 2015

An interesting point someone posted. BKs say Mama has become karmateet. That karmateet means leaving the body. But it is said in the Avyakt Vanis that she has taken birth in Nepal.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by mbbhat » 12 Sep 2015

sita wrote:An interesting point someone posted. BKs say Mama has become karmateet.
It is not (just) some BKs saying. Murli points also say so.
That karmateet means leaving the body.
Karmaateet means one who is neither affected, nor bound by karma.

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Re: Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

Post by sita » 12 Sep 2015

So, is it possible to be karmateet whilst in a body?

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