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john
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Post by john » 06 Jun 2006

At the year 88-89 Brahma Baba - the soul of Krishna does not come in Dadi Gulzar.
OK,then what I cannot understand is why you are saying his education is complete and he reaches seed like state?
Also you say
Shiv plays 3 parts for 3 times 33 years.
Does that mean Brahma from 1936 to 1969 and then Shankar from 1969 to 2002?

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:The actual souls, which played the roles of Prajapita (i.e. Father) and Brahma (i.e. Badee Maa or senior mother) in the beginning of the Yagya and gave spiritual birth to the title holder Prajapita & Mama (i.e. Lekhraj Kirpalani & Mama) are now once again present in the Brahmin family but with a different name and form.
It would be really good if someone was able to present this graphically by way of a family tree.

Let us work to document this clearly.

The beginning of the Yagya has been and is being completely re-written by the BKWSU.

The essence of the PBKs is that Dada Lekhraj's business partner was a medium for Shiva. That Lekhraj was taught by Shiva through this individual. Is this true?

Of course, this is entirely missing from the BK history.

It seems to me that the BKWSU have been painting out characters from their history in exactly the same way the Stalinist did in Communist Russian. Ultimately I don't know and cannot say what is true but as soon as historical revisionism creeps in to such a degree one must become suspicious.

Why not just tell the truth and shame the devil?

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Post by andrey » 07 Jun 2006

In the Murlis it is say...What if this Brahma leaves will creation of heaven not be completed. It will be compleated. then whichever body i enter should be named Brahma....also it is said that Brahma's age is 100 years and it ends in the land of death....also...I enter a mature, ordinary human boody in the stage of retirenment /60/ years.

In 36 Brahma Baba is not 60. Neither he starts speking Murlis then. In 36 the body he enters is the Adi Brahma. Brahma from the beginning. It is said that first is God-Mother, but foregners don't believe in God mother, they only believe in God Father. But everyone believes in Adam - Eve and also believe in mother Nature. One soul represents the mother earth. Mother is nonliving Father is living. It is said mothers always are left with some bodyconciousness, and for them attachment is the big challenge. Mother is said a dead element, inert in the intellect. Father takes the support of nature. The world goes on on the combination of both.

These 100 years end in 1976, nevertheless this Adi brahma leaves the body in between, the years are added to the same birth till 100 is reached. For Brahma Baba 100 years are completed in 1988. Till then he studies and does effort /as the adi Brahma does till 1976/ to reach the incorporeal, thoughtless stage.

Baba says when someone enters the path of knowledge his hindividual shooting starts /honeymoon/. He passes through individual stages of sato, rajo, tamo, nomatter what is the gross shooting of the drama. Confluence Age passess through shooting of different eras each of which through sato, rajo, tamo.

The soul is in ups and downs, but i suppose at some point of time it may reach the incorporeal stage. it's said we all go home together, everyones' accout finish together for everyone, but since the incorporeal Shiv can come in the body and stay detach and uninfluenced all the time /we aim to become equal to Bap, in stage, is not it/ and waits for the children to be ready, to me it seems entirely possible that souls achive the same stage numberwise and although coming in connection with the world and other souls, although some influence can be there, that this fixed internal stage of faith who am i cannot shake.

But it is only one star that never shakes in faith and does not come in ups and downs. He is the Father of all religious Fathers. All religious Fathers remember just a point and does not reach heaven. We remember a point in the body and heaven is our birthright.

yes, Shankar part till 2004 /1936 - 1969 - 33, 1970 - 2003 -33/. Baba sais when donation is given it is not given exactly let's say 50, one gives 51. So some one year in between in calculation.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 07 Jun 2006

Dear Amaranthine,
Om Shanti.
You asked:
1. When did Shiva stop talking through Dada Lekhraj?
Ans: Father Shiv stopped talking through Dada Lekhraj since 18th Jan, 1969, which was the date when Dada Lekhraj's soul left his mortal body. I do not have the exact date on which the last Sakar Murli was spoken by Shiv through the medium of Dada Lekhraj.

2.What is the date of the first PBK Murli?
Ans: Although Father Shiv started entering the body of his new medium soon after Brahma Baba left his body, the new corporeal medium of Father Shiv was revealed to some of the Brahmin souls in the Brahmin world only in 1976. So, probably the first clarification Murlis began to be narrated through the new medium since 1976, but for a long time the record of these new Murlis were not kept by the PBKs. The clarification Murlis began to be recorded in audio cassettes only in the late 1980s. These are still available and in circulation/sale. The video recordings/ vcds of the clarification Murlis have been done since the year 2000 only. At present more than 900 audio cassettes, more than 420 vcds and more than 90 discussion cds are available for the PBKs to study the Godly knowledge.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 07 Jun 2006

Dear John Bhai,
Om Shanti. You wrote:
"Another point to bear in mind is that Dada Lekhraj is involved with the PBKs and forms part of Shankar....So a bit of churning will bring the question when did Dada Lekhraj first become part of Shankar and does that indicate when Murli clarifications(PBK Murlis) started....or what does it indicate in the timeline of PBK history?"

I cannot say when the soul of Dada Lekhraj first entered into the body of Shankar, but it is taught as part of the advance knowledge that the revelation of the soul of Krishna (i.e. Dada Lekhraj) through the body of Shankar (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) took place in 1988-89, when for the first time a season of Avyakt BapDada was skipped and also for the first time some surrendered BK teachers (living at BK centers) switched over and dedicated their lives to ShivBaba in his new role. Just as it is famous in Indian/Hindu mythology that at the time of the birth of Krishna a lightening took place. In the same way when some surrendered BK teachers switched over from BK to PBK, it was like a lightening in the world of Brahmins. And from that point of time, the service in Advance Party increased swiftly. Most of the PBKs are a product of this post-1988 period. As I have already told that the recording of the clarification Murlis and the Advance Course in the voice of ShivBaba Himself began.

It would be interesting for you to know that for more than a decade, Baba himself or Mama herself used to narrate the Advance Course to all the individuals and parties at Kampil, his native village where the bhatti programmes are organized throughout the year till date. I heard first hand accounts of how Baba himself used to cook food, serve it, clean the house, play chess with the PBKs in free time, lift their luggage and see them off till the bus stand. All those were the golden days. But since the mid-nineties, I suppose, it is the nimit sisters who narrate the Advance Course. I myself was given the course during bhatti by a nimit sister. But I was lucky enough to at least meet Baba at Kampil during my first and many subsequent visits to Kampil till a few years ago. When I first visited Kampil, I had not seen Baba or his photo, only heard his voice in the audio cassette. But when I first saw Baba sitting in a group discussing the plan of construction of the mini-Madhubans at Delhi. But I could recognize Baba without anyone having introduced me to him. And since that first meeting Baba has enabled so many experiences. And I suppose, many other PBKs have a similar or even better experiences. But definitely those who took the Advance Course directly from Baba are much luckier than me.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

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john
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Post by john » 07 Jun 2006

[quoteOk, then what I cannot understand is why you are saying his education is complete and he reaches seed like state? Does that mean Brahma from 1936 to 1969 and then Shankar from 1969 to 2002?[/quote]
Andrey, I think these are very important points! Could we please discuss them in a more cohesive, simpler, non padded out way, just for once please, pretty please :). I am not sure you are correct in saying Brahma has finished his education, in that case Shiva would have finished giving knowledge, no?

If the part of Shankar(as you say) finished in 2004, then what is the part Virenda, Dada Lekhraj and Shiva are playing now?

Also in what you say are you acknowledging Shiva plays the part of Vishnu next, if yes, then by the 33 year calculation Vishnus part has started, if you're not saying that what is the third part?

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Post by arjun » 07 Jun 2006

Dear John Bhai,
Om Shanti. Although ShivBaba has mentioned the periods of each personality of Brahma, Shankar and Vishnu as roughly 33 years each, but that does not mean that there is a clear point of demarcation between the end of one role and the beginning of the next role. It is a continuous process. Whenever the role of Vishnu begins, it does not mean that Shankar will vanish from the scene. He will also be present and knowledge will continue to be given through his medium only. The three periods of 33 years each means that during those periods that particular personality will be prominent. For e.g. during the period of Vishnu the soul playing the role of Vishnu will be more prominent.

Baba has given a further clarification in this regard that it took 14 years for the first personality of Brahma to get revealed in the world (1936/37 -1950). It took nearly 7 years for the second personality of Shankar to get revealed in the world (from 1969 to 1976). This is approximately half the time taken for Brahma to get revealed. In the same way, it may take nearly 3-4 years for the third personality, i.e. Vishnu to get revealed in the world of Brahmins, which is half the time taken for the revelation of Shankar. And even this revelation first takes place on a smaller scale and then increases slowly. It is not a sudden switchover.

However, I would seek Baba's answers to the questions you have raised to avoid any confusion.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

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Post by amaranthine » 07 Jun 2006

arjun wrote:I cannot say when the soul of Dada Lekhraj first entered into the body of Shankar, but it is taught as part of the advance knowledge that the revelation of the soul of Krishna (i.e. Dada Lekhraj) through the body of Shankar (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) took place in 1988-89
Revolutionary stuff! if this is the case who is entering the body of Dadi Gulzar now? if it is still Dada Lekhraj why did he not give any indication in the following 16 years that he had done this. you also say 'first time' - does this mean he has done it more than once, is he doing it now?

surely if Dada lekhrah just came clean with the BKs and told them what was going on it would be better for everyone. do you think he will do this at some point, beceause he's the only soul the BKs will listen to.

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Post by atma » 07 Jun 2006

Bhai,

Brahma Baba is entering the body of Dadi Gulzar the proof is in many Murli and Avyakt Vanis. Besides no one calls Dadi Gulzar ShivBaba. You have to understand the role that is being played by Brahma and that is Big Mother(Brahma) so there is alot of attachment here.

Mother has alot of attchment for her children and even though children may jump on her head she still continues to love them and not see these things. There are many hints and suggestiong of this but it is up to that soul to come to that understanding and start to recognize this and then they ask the questions then if there is Mother then who is playing the role of Father?

In the Murlis it speaks of tests well this is one of them.

Atma

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Post by bansy » 07 Jun 2006

This may be a strange query and may not belong to this topic but with all these chats of ShivBaba, Brahma Baba, Father, Mother, Virendra Dev Dixit, Lekhraj Kirpalani, etc ... but can someone remind me ... well, here goes ...

Why are then are we called "Brahmins" (a term which is used all round the cycle up to and including Kaliyug), and not "Vishnuins" or "Shankarins", as the latter figures are more prominent (in temples, as figures etc). I am not asking why we ARE "brahmins", but why the title is the most dominant.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 08 Jun 2006

Sister Bansy, Om Shanti.

The answer to your question lies in the Trimurti Advance Course which I would post shortly with Baba's permission.

But to give you a brief information, I would like to say that in the beginning of the Yagya the incoroporeal Supreme Soul Shiv first of all entered into a mother to listen to the descriptions of the divine visions which occured to Dada Lekhraj and then narrated it to his business partner to lay the foundation of Bhaktimarg (path of devotion, i.e. listening and narrating). Then Father Shiv entered into that partner to explain the meanings of the divine visions, which was understood by that mother and later on narrated to Dada Lekhraj and thus the foundation of gyaanmarg (path of knowledge, i.e. understanding and explaining) was laid. Another mother also heard the explanation that was given by the first mother to Dada Lekhraj.

Thus the first mother and the partner happen to be the spiritual mother and Father respectively, whereas Dada Lekhraj and the second mother happen to be the spiritual children. This was the foundation of pravrittimarg (path of household).

Thus, when first of all Shiv entered into the first mother (Aadi Brahma) and narrated the description of the divine visions to the partner (Prajapita), it was like Prajapita becoming Brahma's mouthborn progeny, i.e. Brahmin. That is why in one of the Sakar Murlis narrated by Shiv through Dada Lekhraj it has been said that "Was there a Prajapita without becoming a Brahmin" (Brahman baney bigar Prajapita tha kya).

Thus all the souls who take birth by listening to the knowledge of Shiv spoken through the mouth of Brahma are called Brahmins. Therefore all the praises about Brahmins in the path of worship.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 08 Jun 2006

Arjunbhai

Thanks, the Trimurti is probably one of the least understood, for westerners and Indians alike (although the Indians may have a slight familiarity with some of the terminology, characters and names but not necessarily of the knowledge).

Could you add why if there are praises to Brahmins, that Vishnu and Shankar are worshipped more ?

Regards
Bansy

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 08 Jun 2006

Sister Bansy,
Om Shanti. Baba has said in the Murlis that Brahmins are praised but not worshipped because they keep passing through the stage of "up and down" in their efforts (purushaarth). Similar is the case with Brahma (Dada Lekhraj). He did not become complete when he left his mortal body and hence there are no temples dedicated to Brahma except for a famous Pushkar temple at Ajmer in the state of Rajasthan in India, where Dada Lekhraj Brahma played his part for most of his aloukik life. Moreover, Brahma was revealed only before a few thousand BKs while he was alive. But as regards Shankar, he gets revealed before the entire world. And as regards Vishnu, the soul playing the role of Vishnu or Vaishnavi Devi gets revealed before the entire Brahmin family/Confluence-Aged deities. So both Vishnu and Shankar are worshipped more in the outside world in comparison to Brahma.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 08 Jun 2006

Arjunbhai

Thanks for the clarification.

Have there been any estimates of the proportion of Brahma:Vishnu:Shankar temples/idol images in India (for public worship which may be countable, but not in homes, companies, or private places). I'd exclude photos.

Regards
Bansy

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 08 Jun 2006

Sister Bansy,

Om Shanti. I do not have the exact numbers but the temples of Shiv-Shankar are the maximum followed by Vishnu and then last is Brahma for whom there must not be more than a few temples which can be counted on fingertips.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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