Is it possible to improve relations of BKs, PBKs and others?

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khemkaran
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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 05 May 2015

Thanks vrkrao

I like your views & logic behind them. I feel you associate with the PBKs?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 06 May 2015

Bhai Arjun Om Shanti
- बाबा तो कह रहे हैं कि साकार बिगर निराकार को याद कर दिखाओ। क्या तुमको ज्ञान प्रेरणा से मिलेगा? लेकिन बीकेज़ तो कहते हैं कि 1969 के बाद निराकार शिव पिता परमधाम में हैं, इसलिए परमधाम में निराकार ज्योति बिंदु रूप में शिवबाबा को याद करना है। तो क्या परमधाम में केवल निराकार को याद करना श्रीमत के अनुसार है? यदि नहीं तो फिर शिवबाबा साकार में कहां पार्ट बजा रहे हैं?
बीकेज यह कहते कि परमपिता शिव 1969 के बाद परमधाम में है इसलिए शिव बाबा को परमधाम में याद करो। आपके कहने का मतलब है कि 1969 से पहले बीकेज शिव बाबा को परमधाम में याद करने को नहीं कहते थे, तो कहां याद करने को कहते थे?
-Baba is telling that “remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration?” But BKs say that 1969 onwards incorporeal Father Shiv is in the Soul World. That is why we must remember ShivBaba as a point of light in the Soul World. So is the remembrance of just the incorporeal in the Soul World in accordance with Shrimat? If not, then where is ShivBaba playing His part in corporeal form?
BKs say that Shiv Baba is in Soul World after 1969, so you should remember Shiv Baba in the Incorporeal world. You mean that before 1969, BKs were not saying to remember Shiv Baba in Soul World, then where they were saying to remember Shiv Baba?

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arjun
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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 07 May 2015

Khemkaran Bhai, I have been a BK for many-many years in the post-1969 period and know very well that BKs are taught to remember ShivBaba in the Supreme Abode. Each and every cassette of assisted meditation with commentary inspires you to go to the Supreme Abode and imagine yourself sitting and talking to a point of light.

Yes, before 1969 BKs used to remember ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and not in the Supreme Abode. This statement is proved by the following Murli point.

“बाप कहते हैं कि मूल बात है निश्चयबुद्धि बनो। तुमने विचित्र का हाथ पकड़ लिया है। इस चित्र द्वारा कहते हैं – मुझे याद करो। तुम्हारी जिन्न जैसी बुद्धि होनी चाहिए। शिवबाबा परमधाम में रहते हैं। अभी शिवबाबा मधुबन में मुरली चलाते होंगे। घड़ी-घड़ी शिवबाबा को याद करना पड़े। अभी तुम यहाँ बैठे हो, वही कहते हैं मामेकम याद करो तो तुम मेरी माला का दाना बन जायेंगे।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २०.०६.०८, पृ. ४)

“The Father says – the main thing is to develop faith. You have held the hand of this vichitra (the one who does not have a body). He says through this picture – remember me. You should have a jinn-like intellect. ShivBaba lives in the Supreme Abode. Now ShivBaba must be narrating Murli at Madhuban. We have to remember ShivBaba again and again. Now you are sitting here; He says – If you remember me alone you will become the bead of my rosary.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.06.08, pg 4 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 08 May 2015

arjun wrote:Khemkaran Bhai, I have been a BK for many-many years in the post-1969 period and know very well that BKs are taught to remember ShivBaba in the Supreme Abode. Each and every cassette of assisted meditation with commentary inspires you to go to the Supreme Abode and imagine yourself sitting and talking to a point of light.
OK
Yes, before 1969 BKs used to remember ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and not in the Supreme Abode. This statement is proved by the following Murli point.

“बाप कहते हैं कि मूल बात है निश्चयबुद्धि बनो। तुमने विचित्र का हाथ पकड़ लिया है। इस चित्र द्वारा कहते हैं – मुझे याद करो। तुम्हारी जिन्न जैसी बुद्धि होनी चाहिए। शिवबाबा परमधाम में रहते हैं। अभी शिवबाबा मधुबन में मुरली चलाते होंगे। घड़ी-घड़ी शिवबाबा को याद करना पड़े। अभी तुम यहाँ बैठे हो, वही कहते हैं मामेकम याद करो तो तुम मेरी माला का दाना बन जायेंगे।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २०.०६.०८, पृ. ४)
इन शब्दों द्वारा बच्चों को समझा रहे हैं कि शिव बाबा को सदा याद रखें। बाबा ने इस चित्र द्वारा ही ज्ञान दिया है। शिव बाबा इस चित्र द्वारा ही कहते थे। इन शब्दों में भी चित्र द्वारा कह रहे हैं न कि चित्र को आधार बनाकर याद करने को कह रहे हैं।
बच्चों की इन कमियों को दूर करने के लिए आगे शिव बाबा ने आगे स्पष्ट किया कि कोई भी चित्रों को सुमिरन न करना है। यह शिव बाबा का जो चित्र है उनका भी ध्यान नहीं करना है क्योंकि शिव ऐसा तो नहीं है ना? (0२.३.७८ पृष्ठ -२)
इसी प्रकार आगे ओर भी स्पष्ट किया कि

बाप कहते हैं तुम इनके शरीर को भी याद न करो, शरीर को याद करने से पूरा ज्ञान उठा नहीं सकते। (२७.११.७७)
अगर देहधारी को याद करते हो वह तो कॉमन हो जाता है। बाप कहते हैं, कब भी देहधारी में तुमको लटकना नहीं है। (६.११.७७)

इसलिए आप शिव बाबा को ब्रहमा बाबा के द्वारा याद करने को नहीं कह सकते हैं।
“The Father says – the main thing is to develop faith. You have held the hand of this vichitra (the one who does not have a body). He says through this picture – remember me. You should have a jinn-like intellect. ShivBaba lives in the Supreme Abode. Now ShivBaba must be narrating Murli at Madhuban. We have to remember ShivBaba again and again. Now you are sitting here; He says – If you remember me alone you will become the bead of my rosary.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.06.08, pg 4 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)
Baba is understanding through these words to remember Shiv Baba ever. Baba gave knowledge through this image. Shiv Baba was says through this image. Also in these words, saying through this image, not make base of image to remember.

Shiv Baba clear again to remove children's shutdown that
Don't remember any images. Don't remember this image of Shiv Baba also because Shiv not being as it. (0.203.78 , P.2)
clear again that
Father says you don't remember this body also, full knowledge cannot take through remember body. (27.11.77)
If remember bodyholder then he become common. Father says don't hang in body. (6.11.77)

So you cannot say that remember Shiv Baba through Brahma Baba or through Brahma's Body.

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arjun
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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 09 May 2015

Khemkaran Bhai, Baba doesn't say we have to remember the Chariot, but He says we have to remember Him through the Chariot. The above Murli point is clear. There are many more Murli points in this regard. But if you like to remember Shiv as a point of light in the Supreme Abode (which is like rememberance of Brahm by Sanyasis on the path of Bhakti) then it is your sweet will. I will not stop you.

"बाबा आत्माओं से बात करते हैं। आत्मा न कह जीवात्मा कहेंगे क्योंकि जब आत्मा अकेली है तो बोल नहीं सकती। शरीर बिगर आत्मा, आत्मा से बात नहीं करती। परमधाम में क्या परमात्मा आत्मा से बात करेंगे? भल कह देते क्राइस्ट को परमात्मा ने भेजा परन्तु वहाँ परमात्मा बोलता नहीं है, वहाँ इशारा भी नहीं होता। ड्रामा अनुसार आत्मा आपेही पार्ट बजाने नीचे आ जाती है। आत्मा में पार्ट भरा हुआ है। तो आत्मा नीचे आकर शरीर धारण कर पार्ट बजाती है।" (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली तारीख 08.10.07, पृष्ठ 1&2)

- 1969 के बाद बीकेज़ को सिखाया जाता है कि योग के दौरान वे परमधाम में जाकर शिवबाबा से बातें कर सकते हैं। लेकिन उक्त मुरली में तो बाबा खुद पूछ रहे हैं कि परमधाम में क्या परमात्मा आत्मा से बात करेंगे? तो क्या परमधाम में ज्योतिबिंदु रूप में शिवबाबा को याद करना ठीक है? या साकार रथ में आये हुए निराकार शिव बाप को याद करना ठीक है?


“Baba speaks to the souls. Instead of aatma (soul) it will be called a jeevatma (a living soul, i.e. soul+body) because when a soul is single (i.e. without body) it cannot speak. Without a body, a soul does not speak to (another) soul. Will the Supreme Soul talk to a soul in the Supreme Abode? Although it is said that Christ was sent (to Earth) by the Supreme Soul, but there the Supreme Soul does not speak. There is not even gesture there. According to the drama a soul comes down on its own to play its part. The part (i.e. role) is recorded in the soul. So the soul comes down and plays its part by assuming a body.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.10.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)

- After 1969, BKs are taught that they can go to the Supreme Abode during meditation and talk to ShivBaba. But Baba is Himself asking in the above Murli that will the Supreme Soul talk to the soul in the Supreme Abode? So is it correct to remember ShivBaba as a point of light in the Supreme Abode? Or is it correct to remember the incorporeal Father Shiv who has come in a corporeal Chariot?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 09 May 2015

Om Shanti Arjun Bhai,
arjun wrote: Baba doesn't say we have to remember the Chariot, but He says we have to remember Him through the Chariot. The above Murli point is clear. There are many more Murli points in this regard. But if you like to remember Shiv as a point of light in the Supreme Abode (which is like rememberance of Brahm by Sanyasis on the path of Bhakti) then it is your sweet will. I will not stop you.
If you remember Shiv Baba through Chariot, thus, you have to remember Chariot's Body part surely. But Shiv Says don't remember any Body and world of Body.
Sanyasi don't remember brahm, they merge in brahm, according to him. They are different from us, there are great different between Sanyasi & us. They have not knowledge of brahm & God accurately. So u cannot differ with us.
"बाबा आत्माओं से बात करते हैं। आत्मा न कह जीवात्मा कहेंगे क्योंकि जब आत्मा अकेली है तो बोल नहीं सकती। शरीर बिगर आत्मा, आत्मा से बात नहीं करती। परमधाम में क्या परमात्मा आत्मा से बात करेंगे? भल कह देते क्राइस्ट को परमात्मा ने भेजा परन्तु वहाँ परमात्मा बोलता नहीं है, वहाँ इशारा भी नहीं होता। ड्रामा अनुसार आत्मा आपेही पार्ट बजाने नीचे आ जाती है। आत्मा में पार्ट भरा हुआ है। तो आत्मा नीचे आकर शरीर धारण कर पार्ट बजाती है।" (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली तारीख 08.10.07, पृष्ठ 1&2)

- 1969 के बाद बीकेज़ को सिखाया जाता है कि योग के दौरान वे परमधाम में जाकर शिवबाबा से बातें कर सकते हैं। लेकिन उक्त मुरली में तो बाबा खुद पूछ रहे हैं कि परमधाम में क्या परमात्मा आत्मा से बात करेंगे? तो क्या परमधाम में ज्योतिबिंदु रूप में शिवबाबा को याद करना ठीक है? या साकार रथ में आये हुए निराकार शिव बाप को याद करना ठीक है?
यहां पर शिव बाबा हमारे पुरुषार्थ से पहले और बाद की बात कह रहे हैं। यहां आत्मा और परमात्मा का प्रेक्टिकल ज्ञान दे रहे हैं कि हम बिना शरीर के घर में होते हैं तो वहां कोई बात करने की जरूरत नहीं होती है। हम जीवात्मा ही हैं हमें तो जरूरत है शिव बाबा और घर को याद करने की। जब बिना शरीर के होंगे तो याद करने की जरूरत ही नहीं है। बोलने या सोचने से तो हम परमधाम पहुंच नहीं पाते। लेकिन अनुभूति तो कर सकते हैं। यही अनुभूति तो विकर्मों का विनाश करेगी। भल कह देते हैं क्राइस्ट को परमात्मा ने भेजा... लेकिन ऐसा होता नहीं है।

यहां पर बाबा की बात से ही समझत सकते हैं कि बाबा ने इस संबंध में पहले जो कहा था उसकी अब से आगे जरूरत नहीं है क्योंकि बाबा ने उस बात का नवीनीकरण कर दिया। आगे आपको इस नवीनीकरण की जरूरत है न कि इस नवीनीकरण से पहले के ज्ञान की। यह समझ की बात है।
ज्ञान का जो नवीनीकरण किया उसको समझने की बात है। ज्ञान में कितने नवीनीकरण हुए हैं यह एक मनन-चिंतन का विषय है। यदि आप ज्ञान के नवीनीकरण की ओर ध्यान दें तो ज्यादा उन्नति हो सकती है।
“Baba speaks to the souls. Instead of aatma (soul) it will be called a jeevatma (a living soul, i.e. soul+body) because when a soul is single (i.e. without body) it cannot speak. Without a body, a soul does not speak to (another) soul. Will the Supreme Soul talk to a soul in the Supreme Abode? Although it is said that Christ was sent (to Earth) by the Supreme Soul, but there the Supreme Soul does not speak. There is not even gesture there. According to the drama a soul comes down on its own to play its part. The part (i.e. role) is recorded in the soul. So the soul comes down and plays its part by assuming a body.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.10.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)

- After 1969, BKs are taught that they can go to the Supreme Abode during meditation and talk to ShivBaba. But Baba is Himself asking in the above Murli that will the Supreme Soul talk to the soul in the Supreme Abode? So is it correct to remember ShivBaba as a point of light in the Supreme Abode? Or is it correct to remember the incorporeal Father Shiv who has come in a corporeal Chariot?
There Shiv Baba says, after & before of our Purushaarth, Soul-God or Soul-Soul not talk in Sweet home in Practically because there are not need. Now We are human and want to became like god so need to remember Shiv Baba & Sweet home. Without body, we don't have need to remember. We cannot reach in Paramdham to think or talk in practically. But we feeling deep such as. Although it is said that Christ was sent (to Earth) by the Supreme Soul, but there the Supreme Soul does not speak.
There are need to update from Shiv Knowledge. Now you accept only update knowledge instead of before. There are many update of knowledge which Shiv Baba gave us. It can be subject of think & chew.

There are reason to remember Shiv Baba in Paramdham.

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 10 May 2015

Dear khemkaran Bhai, Om Shanti. As I said earlier, if you wish to remember Shiv as a point of light in the Supreme Abode, I will not stop you. But for us, in this Confluence Age ShivBaba's Chariot is His living home as mentioned in the Murli point below. We are happy remembering ShivBaba through His living home.

“ShivBaba bhi kahtey hain mai pehley is (Sakar Brahma) ko samjhaata hoon. ShivBaba ka yah chaitanya home hai. Pehley-pehley yah (Brahma) seekhtey hain fir unsay adopted children numberwaar seekh rahey hain. Yah badee guhya baatein hain. Sadgati data patit-paavan khud aakar yah sab raaz samjhaatey hain. Aisey nahee ki vahaan say preranaa kartey hain. Vah toh yahaan aatey hain..” (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 23.02.07, pg.2)

- Baba toh kah rahey hain ki unka Sakar rath hi unka chaitanya home hai. Fir ham jad home, arthaat paramdhaam may buddhi ko le jaakar Shiv Bindu ko kyon Yaad kartey hain?
- Yadi BKs ke anusaar Brahma Baba chaitanya home hai toh unkay dwara ShivBaba ko Yaad karna chahiye, kintu voh Sakar may maujood nahee hain. Aur yadi Gulzar Dadiji Shiv Baba ka chaitanya home hain toh unkay dwara ShivBaba ko Yaad karnaa chaahiye. Lekin aaj tak koi bhi BK Gulzar Dadiji ke dwara ShivBaba ko Yaad nahee kartey hain. Toh fir ShivBaba ka chaitanya home kaun hain?


“ShivBaba also says that I initially explain to this one (corporeal Brahma). This is ShivBaba's living home. First of all this one (Brahma) learns. Then the adopted children are learning from him numberwise. These are very deep matters. The bestower of true salvation, the purifier of the sinful ones comes Himself and explains all these secrets. It is not that he gives inspiration from there. He comes here.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.02.07, pg.2 published by BKs)

- Baba is telling that His corporeal Chariot is his living home. Then why do we remember the point of light Shiv by taking our intellect to the non-living home, i.e. the Supreme Abode?
- If Brahma Baba is the living home as per the BKs, then we should remember ShivBaba through him, but he is not present in corporeal form. And if Gulzar Dadiji is the living home of Shiv Baba, then we should remember ShivBaba through her. But till now, no BK remembers ShivBaba through BK Gulzar Dadiji. Then, who is the living home of ShivBaba?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 13 May 2015

Arjun Bhai Om Shanti

अच्छा! ब्रह्मïा बाबा ने कैसे पुरुषार्थ किया? क्या वह किसी तन के द्वारा शिव बाबा को याद करते थे? मैं समझता हूं ऐसा नहीं है। फालो फादर आप कैसे करेंगे?

Good! How Brahma Baba did Purusharth? was he remember Shiv Baba through any body? I understand that nothing as. How do you follow Father?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 13 May 2015

Khemkaran Bhai, as regards the Chariot of Shiv, the method of remembrance for him will be different from that of the children. Children remember Shiv through the Chariot, but for the Chariot himself, Shiv is a point of light.

As regards Brahma Baba, he got the knowledge from Shiv through a corporeal person (his business partner) in the beginning of the Yagya. Since that partner left the Yagya very soon, his name was forgotten by everyone including Brahma Baba. But later on when he was reminded of that Chariot due to the obstacles created by some of the children with devilish characteristics, he changed the name of the institution from BKIVV to PBKIVV by prefixing the name 'Prajapita' in the mid 1960s.

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 13 May 2015

Om Shanti Arjun Bhai
arjun wrote:Khemkaran Bhai, as regards the Chariot of Shiv, the method of remembrance for him will be different from that of the children. Children remember Shiv through the Chariot, but for the Chariot himself, Shiv is a point of light.

You mean we cannot follow Father Completly, there are two way one for Chariot and other children? Was Shiv Baba gave double knowledge one for Chariot and other children?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 14 May 2015

Khemkaran Bhai, by following the Father completely, do you mean to say that you also want to become a Father? Do you want to prove God to be omnipresent?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 14 May 2015

arjun wrote:Khemkaran Bhai, by following the Father completely, do you mean to say that you also want to become a Father? Do you want to prove God to be omnipresent?
Not Father but like Father. Because Father comes to service to make child like as a Father. I don't want to prove that God is omnipresent.

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 15 May 2015

If Father cannot be omnipresent, then definitely there will be a difference between the method of remembrance for the Chariot and the method of remembrance for the children.

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by khemkaran » 15 May 2015

arjun wrote:If Father cannot be omnipresent, then definitely there will be a difference between the method of remembrance for the Chariot and the method of remembrance for the children.
There are not matter of omnipresent. Shiv Baba not gave different knowledge. The knowledge of Shiva is same for Chariot and children and remembrance is a part of knowledge, without knowledge you cannot remember. Chariot and children student of Shiv Baba, there are one Class not any other. Chariot and children also in IV grade (TamoPradhan), How can different knowledge for Chariot and Children?

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Re: Is can be possible to go up feelings of BK, PBK and othe

Post by arjun » 16 May 2015

Khemkaran Bhai, It is true that Baba has said in the Murli that I teach all the children equally. But Prajapita is the Father of the mankind. And the difference between him and the children is that Shiv enters in him and not the children. At least nobody can claim that Shiv enters in me.

But as I said earlier, there is no use of arguement. If you like remembering Shiv as a point of light in the non-living Supreme Abode, you can continue to do so happily. :D

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