What's wrong with Bhakti?

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 13 Aug 2007

I give up!!!

No, MY question is why does anyone think Gyan is not Bhakti ...

Please no definitions of words, I was a surrendered teacher in the BKs and know by heart, all Hindu Bhakti stories, definitions of Hindi and Sanskrit, and I read every piece of BK Bhakti available ... no offence.

I just want to know why anyone who calls themselves "in Gyan", thinks they are in something separate from Bhakti marg!!!

It's quite simple really, why do you think you're not on the path of Bhakti???????????????????

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2007

We should start a "James Randi-type Prize" for the BK that can prove that BK-ism is not Bhakti.

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abrahma kumar
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why do you think your not on the path of Bhakti?

Post by abrahma kumar » 13 Aug 2007

mr. green, I noted last week when you stated the particular slant that you were interested in investigating when you asked the question. I started to think about it myself but till now i can only offer some ideas that i am staring to explore myself. One idea is simply that we believe that we are in something seperate from Bhakti marg.

All that is necessary, it seems, for the whole thing to start working is our belief in it. Each one of us believed - without proofs - that everything we were told was fact. So in essence we really did believe in belief because there is nothing to believe in since nothing is ever proven. There is no need to prove anything as it is all God's doing. This state of mind is different to faith but it seems that faith-dealers hijack it and use it against us.

Once we start reciting the organisation's oblox as per the new knowledge (non-Bhakti) then it is a sure sign that we have already accepted the programming and closed-down our critical faculties. So as BKs I think that we WANT to beleive that our attutude of mind is different from that of a Bhagat. The desire may set off a whle sequence of events that confirm and reaffirm every step we take on the journey of believing in belief.

As I look back at the Murlis in this context I can see how they clearly 'program' us into a mindset in which we regard all prior spiritual endeavours as 'without aim and objective'; which may or may not be true, however what is also accomplished in that world view is the supremacy of Gyan. The Murli is clever, very clever but at the same time it is actually nothing. Without our willingness to believe it, or our predisposition to be believers, the charade can not work.

Sorry of this sheds no more light on the matter but maybe this effort will attract someone more knowledgeable than myself.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 13 Aug 2007

Now, that was an interesting reply and much nearer to what I am trying to understand here.

It's just I have accepted now I was a Bhagat after all!!!!!!!!! It blows my mind to think this.

Abek, I would take it a step firther and suggest that any member of any religion who feels they have found the truth also thinks all the things you suggest we feel and think on joining Gyan Bhakti.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2007

But surely we were not asked, and did not ask others, to "believe without proof" ... all we were asked was to "suspend our disbelief".

"Suspending one's disbelief" is not actually the same thing as "believing".

You see, a Bhagat "believes"; a Gyani "suspends their disbelief" ... and all their other critical powers amd self-sovereignty along with it.

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Post by mr green » 13 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:But surely we were not asked, and did not ask others, to "believe without proof" ... all we were asked was to "suspend our disbelief". "Suspending one's disbelief" is not actually the same thing as "believing".

You see, a Bhagat "believes"; a Gyani "suspends their disbelief" ... and all their other critical powers amd self-sovereignty along with it.
Hey, that is interesting ex-l. I laughed at first but it is true. Macarbe but true.

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Post by bansy » 13 Aug 2007

To give it a Zenny approach, there can only be white if there is black; so there is Bhakti then there is Gyan. White is just another shade of black. So Gyan is just another shade of Bhakti. Or vice versa.

I am going mad, or just another Gyani Bhagat or a bhagatty Gyani? :P

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 13 Aug 2007

bansy wrote:To give it a zenny appraoch, there can only be white if there is black, so there is Bhakti then there is Gyan. White is just another shade of black. So Gyan is just another shade of Bhakti. Or vice versa. I am going mad, or just another Gyani Bhagat or a bhagatty Gyani ? :P
I think maybe we did all go mad, they certainly still are!!! To look at the behaviour of the pople running the BKWSC (Church) they are defo crackers ... was I really like that????? My God, I was a true nutter.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2007

bansy wrote:To give it a Zenny approach ...
What is the sound of one Gyani clapping? The last BK left in Shantibhavan. (Joke).

Yes, mr g, you were a real nutter. Acknowledge the nutter within and move on. Welcome to yourself ... you are welcome to it.

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abrahma kumar
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Nothing is wrong with Bhakti

Post by abrahma kumar » 13 Aug 2007

I argue that there is absolutely nothing wrong with Bhakti. The BKs HAVE to diminish Bhakti because it is the ONLY way that they can keep us feeling as if we are on superior path. A path on which true spiritual fulfillment will be experienced. The joke is that the Murli can rarely make a point without reference to Bhakti of one form or another. So whats it all about?!

The clever things seems to be that once our inclination to believe - and beyond that to believe in belief - has been hijacked, we then surrender the power - which is actually our ability and determination with which we exhbit the belief in believing - over to the organisation then we start to see our power as coming from them; or bequeathed to us from on high blah blah blah.

To explore this possibility i examine the way that they train us into the view that EVERYTHING comes from Shiv Baba or the Yagya.

Even the abilities that we have are termed as qualities that Shiv Baba has preserved in us or abilities that come directly from Shiv Baba. So here we can see clearly how the "self" is undermined and the oblox exalted.

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mr green
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Re: Nothing is wrong with Bhakti

Post by mr green » 13 Aug 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:I argue that there is absolutely nothing wrong with Bhakti. The BKs HAVE to diminish Bhakti because it is the ONLY way that they can keep us feeling as if we are on superior path. A path on which true spiritual fulfillment will be experienced. The joke is that the Murli can rarely make a point without reference to Bhakti of one form or another. So whats it all about?!

The clever things seems to be that once our inclination to believe - and beyond that to believe in belief - has been hijacked, we then surrender the power - which is actually our ability to believe and the determination with which we exhbit the belief in believing - over to the organisation then we satrt to see our power as coming from them; or bequesthed to us from on high blah blah blah.

To explore this possibility I examine the way that they train us into the view that EVERYTHING comes from Shiv Baba or the Yagya.

Even the abilities that we have are termed as qualities that Shiv Baba has preserved in us or abilities that come directly from Shiv Baba. So here we can see clearly how the "self" is undermined and the oblox exalted.
Wow ... now the deep stuff is coming ... thank you. I find your arguement compelling.

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Suspending disbelief on the way out of Bhagatsville

Post by abrahma kumar » 13 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:But surely we were not asked, and did not ask others, to "believe without proof" ... all we were asked was to "suspend our disbelief". "Suspending one's disbelief" is not actually the same thing as "believing". You see, a Bhagat "believes"; a Gyani "suspends their disbelief" ... and all their other critical powers and self-sovereignty along with it.
Yes, yes, yes ex-l, these are the exact areas that the churnings then go it. A BKWSU "operative" will even acknowledge your critical faculties by urging you not to believe but simply to explore the possibility of x,y,z.

This "suspend your belief" oblox may well appeal - in the sense of sounding impressively enlightened and the sense of call out to us - to an image we have/wish to have of ourselves as being independent and capable of arrivig at our own conclusions blah, blah, blah. Basically it is like a BIG ego stroking.

But on a subtle level the truth is that it was the oblox that opened us up and so it is the oblox that gets the glory. I do not have scientific proof of any of this but I am just sharing some thoughts that i had. And we all know that if you ask any BK for proof about anything they accept as truth, they will look at you as if you are completely mad.
mr green wrote:Now, that was an interesting reply and much nearer to what I am trying to understand here. It's just I have accepted now I was a Bhagat after all!!!!!!!!! It blows my mind to think this. Abek, I would take it a step further and suggest that any member of any religion who feels they have found the truth also thinks all the things you suggest we feel and think on joining Gyan Bhakti.
Ah mr. green very nice advance on the topic. Yes ANY religion. Someone wiser than I am offered the following point to think about: A fundemantalist will never ever change his/her mind about their beliefs. Not even in the face of contrary proof. Not even in the face of scientific proof.

The fundamentalist believes his/her cause has been mandated from on High. And heaven forbid if one attacks the "sacred cows" of their beliefs. Wars are fought over this stuff, so i hear. Maybe we go a little further later on and examine how it is that the fundamentalist believes that the rest of the world - or at least his direct adversaries - are all wrong. While he alone is right. And for the time being one last thought in this area: The religious fundamentalist believes that it is his/her duty to ensure that no energy is spared in making you see that theirs is the ONLY way (service).

This is dangerous Gyan - not for kids ;) Of course today in 2007, the BKWSU has been able to greatly polish-up its act in all of these areas but as ex-l said suspending dis-belief is a key component in us taking onboard and passing on the New Age Bhakti. The invitation to suspend dis-belief may be the first breach that the BKWSU makes in our psyche.

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Suspension is not the same as believing

Post by abrahma kumar » 13 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:But surely we were not asked, and did not ask others, to "believe without proof" ... all we were asked was to "suspend our disbelief". "Suspending one's disbelief" is not actually the same thing as "believing". You see, a Bhagat "believes"; a Gyani "suspends their disbelief" ... and all their other critical powers and self-sovereignty along with it.
ex-l, in my replies i went on about 'suspending belief' (meaning to put on hold any desire to seek proof; just realx and listen). But i like the additional dynamic that 'suspending disbelief' brings to the topic.

In my current state, I see both these 'suspend' strategies as leaving us open to be programmed. But is one term/strategy more effective at filling us with the impression that we are not doing Bhakti?

Given my personality, I would interpret the "suspend disbelief" approach as more overt; more explicitly instructional. While the "suspend belief" sounds to me as if i am being encouraged to exercise my own will.

But as you say suspending one's disbelief is not the same as believing; and i agree. Suspending one's disbelief feels like a room to which a door to the disbelief chamber is left ajar just in case you need a quick escape.

I, too, offer that suspending one's belief is also not the same as believing. Suspending one's belief it feels like walking into a room in which the door to the belief chamber has a temporary 'do-not-disturb' sign on it. But since i do not need that chamber right this minute I can relax while the current occupant enjoys use.

Perhaps Gyan works on us from both of these angles with the result that it really does appear to be a brand new thing unlike Bhakti. Very interesting to think about. Thanks.

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surrender your intellect

Post by alladin » 14 Aug 2007

Have I got it right? Is suspending one's disbelief connected with, or the same as the meaning of surrender? Hands up ... Drop your weapons (analytical power, intelligence, common sense ...)?

We always got ready-made answers to pass on to others, and when our questions were particularly disturbing, "Baba has not told us yet, Baba is playing with the children. He's not contradicting himself ... have more meditation so your intellect will open and you'll be able to understand". Easy recipes that work on souls who have already undergone a certain degree of brainwashing.

Part of it, in the beginning of the zombie training, is the mantra "forget everything you have heard and do not inform yourself or learn anything else or new." Erase all previous info, clean the slate. The vessel has to become gold - as we all have been taught - clean and empty, in order to receive some special nectar. Is any Bk truly enjoying a paradisiac life whilst walking in his sleep? Has this magic filter performed wonders on any of us?

As far as I've seen, BKs are usually unhappy, frustrated, dropped out and dissatisfied, definitely hyperactive + restless, and running around like damned souls in service, but not vital. They have no where and nobody to turn to, generally affected by food disorders, sour, a strange army indeed!

Try and stay away from the gathering for a while, you get shocked when you plunge again into a group situation! I have experienced more magic after I left, and possibly in the sense that I am, as others are, now using in a critical way, powers and teachings and knowledge in order to de-program. Best Bhakti is "good wishes", for the self and all! :D

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Post by yudhishtira » 14 Aug 2007

Bhakti marg!!!
can i get a definition of what this mysterious marg is please.. I take it you wouldnt spread it on your toast!

I would still stick with my original point. Gyan as practiced by the "institution" (theyre coming to take me away! the little men with white coats...) is definately Bhakti. Values are not being practiced but preached. I have seen seen a very few individuals who actually practice Gyan; not as a system but in way that permeates their entire attitude and behaviour. I know I am in transition between getting rid of the Gyan Bhakti attitude; which includes low self esteem, guilt, fear and judgement and moving towards a pure Gyan experience which is one of self love, understanding and acceptance and the same towards all souls; being empowered, being with Baba and being truly unshakeable.

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