Where do we go from here?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Nov 2007

Yes, I get what you are saying Eugene and accept that ... without the caveat that neither I nor anyone needs bow to The Them or their way of saying things. Love exist best between equals. Not rulers and subjects. Righteous indignation about objective wrongs is pure and very healthy.
iknewit wrote:Maybe the way forward would be for the BK Management or Brother Nirwair to get Ved Prakash (known as Pehelwan Bhai) to return the thousands of dollars of mine he ran away with to Delhi. Maybe the way forward would be for Management to return the thousands of dollars I have donated to the organisation for years and years.
I think that would be an excellent way forward and I think we have a few cases here that will make healthy test cases for when the ombudsperson service is set up. If not a case action in law.

Given that Nirwair added the foreword and 'signed off' on that Vishwa Ratan book, which is a falsification of their corporate history and gives an erroneous impression of the BKWSU, I think it would prove his ability as a managing trustee to be 'officially' dishonest adding to general claim of "undue influence". Despite that there might be truth, have all been misled by these princes. It might not happen over night, we might have to wait until more such cases arise, so please keep in touch with the forum.

I will warn you that one excuse I have heard that they give is that "charities cannot give back donations". This is, of course, bull. Charities can and do make "ex gratia" or "without prejudice" payment by way of compensation for wrong all the time. We need to share our experiences here, e.g. the run around mr green suffered between the Kirpalani Klan, who most BKs rightfully consider to be the final word, and the trustees, who appear to have over ruled it.

Again, like the domain dispute, these cases WITHIN THE BKWSU and their results NEED to be publicly documented and the decisions published so that others can learn from them. No more rule by secrecy. Primal, if you can add this to your checklist. I, personally, can say how much they like everything to be hush-hush and done via the backdoor. What that does is keeps them at the power center and the individual victims isolated from each other out on the spokes.
sparkal wrote:I offered the BKWSU love but they informed me that I have to be a professional love giver to do that ... I hear love has gone down on the Stock Exchange also.
Ha! If we get this transformation of the BKWSU wrong, then you will probably need to be certified to live BK Love (tm) in the future.

All the same, I hear the Futures Market for love is still strong. You pay now in cash and property in the present and they promise to deliver 2,500 years of their unconditional love as the rulers of heaven if you are a subject.

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Post by adikarisoul » 28 Nov 2007

Hi everyone,

I found this topic extremely valuable and would like to share my opinion.

As one could see from my posts, I did express in some of them a few strong negative opinions about the behaviour of some BKs and about their way and means. But I also wrote some appreciative things and shared with all of you "some tender memories " of my BK life.

I became a BK because I was sick of "wearing masks in my lokik life" and of having to hide my real self in order to be accepted by others. And after 21 years, I left the BKs for the same reason ...

Now, I think that each one of us should feel free to express himself and share without any fear "what's in our heart". And others should kindly and respectfully accept what comes out in that moment ... as it may be something very hard and bitter (but nevertheless true ...) and, in other moments, some sweet words and memories may be expressed by the same person.

If we must force ourselves to be "polite", and show respect when we don't feel like it, for me it's like having to wear again a mask. And, at the same time, it's like betraying the very purpose of this forum.

Kind regards.
ADI

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love and criticism

Post by sparkal » 28 Nov 2007

Thanks for bringing your conversation on to the forum where it belongs Bro's. No one should have to justify inspiring loving feelings towards others no matter who and no one need justify their negativity. My opinion.

We waltzed through life in a cloud of love, not really knowing what was going on and perhaps there is a degree of feeling betrayed as a result. Now that we are questioning what happened, i.e. 'what on earth was that?'

We were also made to feel like special beings yet have turned out to be rather normal, ( :?:) which is an anti-climax to the expectation. Time goes slower than the promised delivery. We don't know the future and what it holds. We do know that there are changes on the way, though, we have heard that before. Yet, it never comes, creating more intensity and adding to the disillusion. Who to blame, if anyone? Hmm.

In my experience, the souls, or type of souls who are the target of much of the flack being dished out on this forum, they tend to appear as if they don't hear the teaching (ego?) yet can be seen to have noted it and even implemented it at a later date; a couple of years later even. So there is substance in saying that criticism is not the ultimate teaching tool, but also that our words may reach the target more than we realise.

Indeed, I was thinking today of the possibility of one day putting this forum behind us as "old forum" while a new more vibrant one takes its place where we get down to spiritual speak. Hold on, what do I mean by that? Spirituality itself should never find itself in the dock.

Without contest, continued criticism could become a habit, and work against itself. On the other hand, the criticism will continue if there is no worthwhile noises coming from the targets of the criticism. Is BKWSU obliged to communicate with this site? Not if they are "special" souls, I suspect. Perhaps if they ever become "normal", they may drop us a line.

Let's be honest, it becomes ingrained and is not easy to flush out. Is any of it genuine and worth keeping? Of course it is, surely? Part of my frustration is not being able to emerge what I have taken through the teachings. Why? Good question.

Are they getting something I have not/am not? Probably not. Questions still remain however. "There are more questions than answers ". "The agenda"? The birth of Krisna is the aim and object, everything else is, or appears to be, shown disregard. And that is a subject which needs more looking at.

What turns the BK wheels? Is it obsessed with certain worship worthy souls and their next lives, missing the here and now? Abusing all others who may be deemed slaves to this aim and object? In short, it sounds like Indian/Hindi Bhakti drives the wheels therefore.

Love

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Re: love and criticism

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Nov 2007

adikarisoul wrote:If we must force ourselves to be "polite", and show respect when we don't feel like it, for me it's like having to wear again a mask.
I feel that "showing respect", like so many other words, has become to mean something else within the BKWSU ... something else again to protect the leadership. One can respect one's self and another and still make accurate and timely observations. Showing respect does not mean "conforming to the leaderships accepted norm" against one's conscience.
sparkal wrote:Indeed, I was thinking today of the possibility of one day putting this forum behind us as "old forum" while a new more vibrant one takes its place where we get down to spiritual speak. Hold on, what do I mean by that?
I hope so and agree as well. I am reminded of The Quakers. A quasi-Christian religion not ever mentioned in The Tree or Murli. (Although they exist in Christian countries, I am not utterly sure that they are Christians, more like the Jains of Europe and American). The Quakers have a way of worship where each individual is allowed to speak, "as the spirit moves them". They sit in silence and then share if and when they feel moved. Of course, it requires discipline and experience to know when one is move "by the spirit" or when one is moved "by the ego" ... but only experience can teach that.

I do not think that we should underestimate the scale of the issues that we have brought to air here. Some elements might like to think that they are insignificant and do not really matter. Or that they are personal Maya. Some individuals might even hope that by luck, or yukti, they can weather this 'little storm in a website' and hold on to their position on the rock that they chose to remain. I would actually be sorry if they were able to do so.

My feeling is that some of the issues we are airing here are so considerable that some heads should roll in humility, that individuals should step aside and certainly the system changed, not modified in some face saving manner to protect the incumbents. As I said before, if issues such as those we have aired here happened in a normal NGO or government, heads would roll. Why does a "Godly" government not have higher standards?

As a short aside to primal.logic, can I add to your shopping list; the dowry money that is taken off those young kunyas that surrender to the BKW-sue (which may not be 'The Yugya') should not be taken by the BKW-sue but HELD IN TRUST in case the individuals later chose to leave. I do not know how many cases such as these as there are, but however many there are, they should be held in a record. Whether 'The They' chose to extract their 6% pound of flesh (interest) on such trust savings, is food for further thought ... but my feeling is it is a
  • a) In the West, we would call that a sort of slavery. It is not even "indentured service".
    b) It is surely class ridden as it would allows for daughters of families with money to join ... perhaps families which could later be assured of being further financial donors?
May be the Lord of the Poor is protecting the poor here!?! Are these the surrendered sisters, with no way out of the system, that the leadership later parachutes in to run local centers all around the world?

What do we want of this forum? A place such as it is to consider such developments with the input of others ... and in the public eye. Yes, I think the BKW-sue owes us direct involvement and "official answers" to our questions where those answers can be analysed and peer reviewed. If we do not get an official engagement ... I think the ears of the rest of the world will start to prick up.

Given that there are no guarantees how, when or if Destruction will save the leadership's collective as***s; and given that there are no guarantees that the followers will be saved from further misguidance, misleading and "revision" ... would it be possible to move the BKW-sue towards a mutually beneficial, democratic in the broadest possible definition, "stakeholder" society rather than a Golden Age-Golden Age-Golden Age?

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Post by proy » 29 Nov 2007

eromain wrote:The ex-ls of this site cross the line sometimes but that is their job!!! Because who really knows where the line should always be. The darn things move. That is why "unrespectful" and so-called "negative" criticism is so potentially valuable, if there was anyone in the BKs who could look beyond the waves to the real current underneath.
HERE

I agree with you eromain. We have to cross the line before we know where that line is.

There is a lot more to come out about the BKWSU and it will surface eventually. We can do it politely but let's not let them sweet talk us into allowing them to continue with the perpetration of similar abuses to the ones we know they have committed already.
  • What about the rank and file BKs?

    Are we going to hear from them that they have seen enough dirty dealings from their leaders?

    What about the Trade Mark issues referred to earlier in this thread?
The situation reminds me of the Vietnam war veterans who were instrumental in stopping that war. People like you and ex-l are our veterans. You have stood up and said plainly that the BKWSU is rotten at the core. They allowed this legal action to continue when they could have stopped it.

What we need now is for the foot soldiers of the BKs to raise their banners with the vets.
  • Those BKs may still believe in the principles of their religion, but do they trust their leaders?

    Do those leaders themselves even believe in the principles they espouse?
Their actions indicate otherwise :|.

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womb hunters

Post by sparkal » 29 Nov 2007

When people refer to BKWSU "leaders", I wonder what they mean? Let us not forget the point where Brother Ramesh has a quiet word with Lekhraj (BapDada). So, the leader has no material body. The same goes for PBKs.

So we have Gurus strutting around in the Subtle Regions acting cool with their snakeskin jeans in charge of many souls here on planet earth/corporeal world (I should add a :?: to all that?).

They may need a pair of shades also as the time may be getting closer to hauling their Guru as**s through Daram Raj. Those who do THROUGH others and TO others? Or is it only Shiva who does that?

Perhaps we will find out who has been doing what through and to who. Otherwise, these are the leaders in question. They are there, they communicate, they lead. All this hot air from the Subtle Regions? Where is it taking us?

One such leader has been quoted by someone on this forum as knowing which womb they will take birth in. Sorry, but it has a predatory feel about it. Desire. The big green eyed monster which only thinks of the self when it comes right down to it. ME and MY inheritance.

Perhaps there will be one or two hurdles to cross before souls can simply enter a womb, one or two questions asked. I don't assume anything, I am willing to take the rap if I am wrong to doubt. It just seems to me that there are those who hold others back, subdue, destroy others lives. Who does this? I don't know.

So, are we only thinking about our next life and how wealthy etc we will be? I hope no one puts a stick into the spokes of such selfish bicycles.

There is a need for compassion in the here and now, the future will take care of its self, and I presume there will be something in place to take care of selfish Gurus, if they exist. The leaders on the corporeal level only do the bidding of those beyond then(?). So if heads are to roll, it should be beyond. And no doubt they will at some point. Organisations orchestrated from beyond by womb hunters. Only stating the facts as I see it.

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Post by eromain » 30 Nov 2007

Hi Proy,

Thanks for the post and I agree with most of it.

But just want to point out that I have never "said plainly that the BKWSU is rotten at the core." That isnt my language or my thinking.

Cheers
Eugene

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Post by proy » 30 Nov 2007

eromain wrote: I have never "said plainly that the BKWSU is rotten at the core." That isnt my language or my thinking.
My apologies eromain. I did not mean to put words in your mouth. That was my interpretation of your views. I stand corrected.

Glad you agree with most of what I wrote. :D

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Gurus

Post by sparkal » 30 Nov 2007

Consistency is not an easy thing to get. We all fluctuate all the time, some more than others. I don't think I am alone in this.

I am glad to hear people talking about the "core" as that is the root of it all. Whether it is rotten or not, well, if there was more transparency perhaps we would all know. Perhaps it is good to discuss that which should never be discussed therefore. To continue my own line of thought, the future world will not have Gurus. We need to get out of this attitude. The Gurus beyond may not mind me doing my thing, it is those who worship and who are devoted to them who will feel most insulted.

It is not, and never has been part of the teachings to become attached to any individual. The teachings are that we should detach from Shiva eventually also. The teachings are designed to empower the individual. Guru means liberator. There is no liberation in clinging to another. We can however liberate our selves.

Let us not pretend that there is none of this Guru worship going on, and how much it stinks, how destructive it is to the family as a whole.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Dec 2007

So what is love? I think we ought to outlaw the quoting of lyrics in this topic, or else we will be aflood with sugary pop ... ! I have been churning the Murli of Sakar Eromain over how or whether we "owe" the BKWSU love ... or even that our efforts will be most effective and best rewarded if we "act in love".

Currently, piloting my spaceship into (and hopefully out of the heart of the 'Death Star'), I am not entirely sure. I prefer to practise self-love and am more concerned that I do get out first. Then perhaps I can love in the detached manner - at a distance - that surely their karma decrees?

I know it is a theory both within some elements of the BKWSU and the 'New Age' that if one does not "act with love" then one's actions will be unsuccessful or meet with resistance. But, again, is this true? It would seem equally true to me that individuals have their own will and exercise it and one's own intentions and actions are not the only force in the equation.

It would seem to be that 'will' is a far bigger, if less spoken, part of the equation; so hands up to those of us that have met with another's will whether obvious or skillfully discreet?

So what is love ... and how is 'passion' measured within BK circles. Am I driven by love, its twin sister hatred, some forbidden passion, a higher intuition or what? How does love manifest, or more to the point, what manifestation of love is accepted and who gets to decide what manifestation of love is acceptable? The BKWSU's PR wing?

Is a love for an objective truth, a love for justice not a higher love than an obedience to a preset conformal pattern of behavior decreed by other limited human beings?

Looking back over my time in the BKWSU and since, it strikes me that many to all of the developments with 'The Family', thinking of the positive ones, have come about because individuals obviously or discreetly stepped beyond the prior limitation enshrined by the SS. MANY taking obvious steps met with resistance and even punishment. Perhaps those skillful courtiers who are flattering and discreet - ,and apparently, most importantly brought favored results - were able to change things without risking their position. Perhaps there is an art to it?

But, honestly, I do not know. I do not even know WHY I am doing what I do, or have done. For me, I just feel driven, pushed even. I feel no resistance or condemnation from any God, no fear of losing any status. It all feels very "right" ... such a relief and so empowering to be committed to finding and exposing only truth.

In a way, I kind of feel like this, and the forum, are of a very pure state without any required practise or preconscious even. Its like just jumping into a river that is already flowing like a torrent and just going with the flow.

I would say that at time I sense at times very hot and serious angers that I take to be coming of specific individuals who are challenged by what we are doing. I concur with the intuitives amongst us; sparkal, di and others about this.

Yes, I personally do think that we are coming into opposition and are suffering serpentine strikes on a psychic level, the domain dispute was like to me a very tangible physical manifestation of this (... and I suppose we can depend on the cooperative souls of the BKWSU internet PR Team to pass this opinion back to its sources) but I think that it is best that I put this impression up for others to peer review as well.

So, to put the boot on the other foot ... where is love lacking in what we are doing? Love does not mean PR in my book. Love is not always easy or pleasurable. Love to me is when one makes a choice or decision and then sticks with it despite whatever comes up. Indeed, it is the source of one's persistence to carry one when there is no pleasure, no reward, even obstruction and defamation. Surely that is the difference between love in maturity and infatuation? Infatuation tosses and turns, demands and denies, holds even strangles; contrives ... putting on its best dress to impress.

Is the sword of truth, not the sword of love? I have been directly warned about even expressing sympathy and compassion for these individuals as they too can be used as hooks to ensnare one.

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Post by bro neo » 02 Dec 2007

ex-l wrote:So what is love? ...
What a beautiful question 8) ...

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the two towers...

Post by button slammer » 02 Dec 2007

ex-l wrote:So what is love? I think we ought to outlaw the quoting of lyrics in this topic, or else we will be aflood with sugary pop ... ! I have been churning the Murli of Sakar Eromain over how or whether we "owe" the BKWSU love ... or even that our efforts will be most effective and best rewarded if we "act in love".
Yes, I personally do think that we are coming into opposition and are suffering serpentine strikes on a psychic level, the domain dispute was like to me a very tangible physical manifestation of this ...
'You have to work with the power of Yoga. You have to heat up each of your physical senses with the fire of Yoga so that no-one can attack you' ...
I would say that at time I sense at times very hot and serious angers that I take to be coming of specific individuals who are challenged by what we are doing. I concur with the intuitives amongst us; sparkal, di and others about this.
Is the sword of truth, not the sword of love? I have been directly warned about even expressing sympathy and compassion for these individuals as they too can be used as hooks to ensnare one.
Those impure souls are very powerful. Maya's power no less. You have to pay a lot of attention to this. And even the elements of nature will carry on with their own work. In order to confront them you need to imbibe Godly power into yourself. At that time you must not have love for them. At that time you need to be the embodiment of power. You have to think about when you need to be the embodiment of love and when you need to be the embodiment of power in all these aspects.

If such a person comes and you show him extra love, then it can cause damage. You have to have love for BapDada and the divine family. But together with everything else, you also have to confront them with the form of power ...
av 18.5.69

I have heard in PBK circles that Kampil has been under psychic attack from Mt Abu. Apparently the residents of Kampil (HQ of PBKs) have been inundated by sinful souls sent from Mt Abu. A special regime was set up by Baba/Virendra Dev Dixit for the protection of the Kampil residents. I know of some PBKs who were present during the attacks and who witnessed the 'goings on'. I've experienced various levels of psychic attack myself. During the years I've learnt how to deal with the intruders. The last instruction I recieved from Baba/Virendra Dev Dixit on the subject was to give the intruding soul knowledge.

During an 'attack' in my sleep I saw a dark cloud approach. The cloud was heavy and ominous. I recognized the accompanying feeling of dread and terror as that of an invading spirit. My usual tactic during dreams was to firmly tell the spirit to 'clear off!, go away! in a powerful stage of soul conciousness, or to invoke ShivBaba for help. This time I simply began narrating basic points of Gyan to the cloud, i.e. you are a soul, you exist forever, the soul is a spark of divine light, you are a child of the Supreme Father of all souls etc.

During this time the heavy feeling abated and the dense heavy cloud vanished, in its place three golden sparks of light appeared which then sped away ... :).

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Post by sparkal » 02 Dec 2007

While you mention it, I am feeling some rather heavy vibes as a result of my recent posts, maybe.

Is THIS what you meen by love? Perhaps I need to go back to the drawing board.

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Re: the two towers...

Post by sparkal » 03 Dec 2007

I have heard in PBK circles that Kampil has been under psychic attack from Mt Abu. Apparently the residents of Kampil (HQ of PBKs) have been inundated by sinful souls sent from Mt Abu. A special regime was set up by Baba/Veerendra Dev Dixit for the protection of the Kampil residents. I know of some PBKs who were present during the attacks and who witnessed the 'goings on'.
This Guru thing is still evident. I would be wary about letting any of these souls in brother. I have doubts about these Gurus and their motives. Sure, they can knock out spiritual love and tell us things, but we need to consider the cost.

It seems to me that the "PBKs" point the finger at the "BKs" every time they are questioned. Sometimes even before being questioned, they are blaming the "BKs". So, before we go any farther on this forum, can a "PBK" outline the agenda of this new organisation clearly. What is the aim and object of the "PBKs" with regards to the future? What is the aim and object of the "PBK" guru? What I see is a big snake wrapping itself around the forum getting ready to squeeze, or is that my suspicious mind? And, no, I am not polite, I prefer transparency and honesty to politeness.

Love? I think it was always about love for the self as ex-l points out, you cannot trust simply putting out love. Love will automatically go out as a result of love for self. Love to the world? I have always thought it OK till recent experiences. Perhaps we need to look at it within the self. Is it ego based? Am I looking to receive love out of emptiness, insecurity etc?

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Re: the two towers...

Post by button slammer » 04 Dec 2007

It seems to me that the "PBKs" point the finger at the "BKs" every time they are questioned. Sometimes even before being questioned, they are blaming the "BKs". So, before we go any farther on this forum, can a "PBK" outline the agenda of this new organisation clearly.

The PBKs are by no means a 'new' organisation, it could be said that PBKs have been around the longest in fact. It is testamant to the subversive powers of anti-propaganda/defamation of the PBKs by the BKWSU ruling elite that you consider the PBKs to be 'new'. Too many false accusations and injustices have been made towards the PBKs by the BKs, and so it is only right and proper that justice is served and blame laid fairly to rest where it belongs.
Sometimes even before being questioned, they are blaming the "BKs
Yes, of course. This is why PBKs are also known as 'The Advance Party"
What is the aim and object of the "PBKs" with regards to the future? What is the aim and object of the "PBK" guru?
The aim and object of the PBKs is UNITY between the Sun and Moon dynasties. The moon dynasty are those who have true love for Brahma Baba/Lekhraj Kirpalani and his pure dharna, they are the ones who have been abused by the body concious rulers of the BKWSU, they are the real BKs who the PBKs really love and respect. The Sun dynasty is lead by Prajapita Brahma/Virendra Dev Dixit and are also known as PBKs/Advance Party they have real love for knowledge and Yoga.
What is the aim and object of the "PBK" guru?
The aim and object of the 'PBK guru' is to create such a gathering of souls so that any soul who enters into that atmosphere automatically reaches the incorporeal stage. It is called the supreme region, where Baba/Virendra Dev Dixit says; 'You children will bring heaven on earth by your incorporeal stage' The gathering will create such a powerful pure vibration that self and world transformation quickly take place. This means that the imposter souls who have taken control of the Yagya till now beat a helter-skelter retreat from Mt Abu, as they cannot withstand the true light of Gyan and soul conscious attitude.
What I see is a big snake wrapping itself around the forum getting ready to squeeze, or is that my suspicious mind? And, no, I am not polite, I prefer transparency and honesty to politeness.
The forum has a good measure of snake charmers for sure. If you, or any one else, feel that PBKs are being too intrusive/overstepping I am sure we'll be informed toute de suite
Love? I think it was always about love for the self as Ex- L points out, you cannot trust simply putting out love. Love will automatically go out as a result of love for self. Love to the world? I have always thought it OK till recent experiences. Perhaps we need to look at it within the self. Is it ego based? Am I looking to receive love out of emptiness, insecurity etc?

Well, some areas here for introspection. The POWER of MERCY. Going to the heart of darkness and remaining incandescent in spirit, untouched by ones own failings, or those of others. :)

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