Defaming the Yagya

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sparkal
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Defaming the Yagya

Post by sparkal » 01 Dec 2007

Call it wordplay, but I am slightly confused by the term "DEFAMING the Yagya". The term suggests that fame is the aim and object, and that fame, once attained, should never be challenged.

How many times in the Murli have we heard it warn against seeking "name and fame"? Or is it the ultimate in conservative self preservation? As in, it is wrong to seek it if you don't already have it but, if you already have it, it is OK to preserve it?

Or is what I just outlined more to do with defaming individuals and individual name and fame "DEFAMING the Yagya" is different I presume. The aim and object of the collective therefore being to earn name and fame. Is this a worthwhile aim and object? Perhaps the following question would be, why would a collective want name and fame? And does it have to be for negative reasons?

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Re: DEFAMING the Yagya

Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Dec 2007

sparkal wrote:Perhaps the following question would be, why would a collective want name and fame? And does it have to be for negative reasons?
Particularly perspicacious post, pal.

Of course, initially I thought it was just such an invitation to join you to do so; but I see you take the question to a whole new level Who is the collective, or who THINKS they are the collective.

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Re: DEFAMING the Yagya

Post by proy » 02 Dec 2007

sparkal wrote: "DEFAMING the Yagya".
I think the BKWSU are doing a very good job of defaming the Yagya. I congratulate them on their efficiency. When it comes to shooting themselves in the foot their aim is excellent.

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faithfulness to God incompatible with loyalty to the Yagya

Post by alladin » 18 Dec 2007

More than faithfulness to the Father and his direct teachings, I notice that what the Yagya itself - of course! - wants to instill in people, is that this is an unquestionable entity, in spite of blatant derailments. This is achieved often through the fear they instill in people who "defame the guru" (old story in all sects and religions, no freedom of expression) and become traitors, the loss of our inheritance and the shame we would feel when coming back, tail between the legs, to the only shop that will be left open at the time of destruction (ah aha ah ... I told you that you would be back. There are no more buses, you must pay taxi prices!).

Through the superiority complex they also instill in members, "we are the chosen ones", so why should we question anything, we belong to the clan of "winners"? Those who dare criticizing or even question, automatically become untrustworthy troublemakers and slanderers. How can the Yagya grow if it keeps its diseases and gangrenes hidden? is not it destined, through conservatism, to implode and be overtaken by some infection? Baba talks a lot about disservice and setting negative examples for others when we misbehave or give sorrow.

One of the major problems world wide in the BKWSO, is the fact that rotten apples are usually kept in place. Contrary to any lokik company, in this one you do not see heads being chopped off (SS are merciful, you know :wink:, and benefiting a sister in charge is sometimes more important than sustaining or killing hundreds of students) even when multitudes complain about the particular destructive attitude of a teacher that works against the expansion of service. HR problems? Too difficult to replace them? Or a deliberate show of ruling with an iron fist, the need to demonstrate practically that this is our authoritarian way of running things: silencing complains and crushing rebellions.

How does some one like Dadi Janki operate? I am the Dictator, I can decide who is going to be in charge of which center, even if unsuitable from the (body-consciousness !) point of view of age, culture or language and against any logic; in spite of bad results, I will keep whomever I decide in place and I will not lend an ear to complaints. This is all about power, about reinforcing the idea that this is not a democracy. From the hat trick of Gyan, innumerable excuses will be pulled out such as, "don't criticize or look at others, you are the one who has to transform. Give them good wishes". The personnel on the gaddhi is not detrimental because by being a constant "test" to everybody, there's benefit in every - even unpleasant - scene. She will compel students and peers to become strong and develop powers and virtues in order to survive. You have to change the atmosphere etc ... Just endure and shut up, because this is one again Bhakti, which often includes marthyrdom that leads to perfection.

What often BKs and forum members especially have noticed and try to point out is that often, if one wants to be faithful to the Father and his teachings, either given in the Sakar form by BB being an example, or in channelled words in Murlis - one has to stand against the Yagya, SS, teachers and newly introduced systems and trends. Just a simple example: Baba said "live in harmony and love, like milk and sugar", "make centers free from Maya, do not give sorrow to anyone"; so why are vicious people are given the OK to remain in charge or even take root for years in centers and bhawans ... or rule some department, to the extent of making that place "infamous"?

Does abuse of power count more than reputation? Which loyalty is more important, once we believe God has come and is speaking through a Chariot, that to him or to an institution?

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Post by enlightened » 18 Dec 2007

Hear Hear Alladin

You hit the nail on the Head!!

I absolutely agree with what you've written.

Iknewit

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Post by adikarisoul » 18 Dec 2007

Idem.

ADI

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Post by eromain » 18 Dec 2007

Dear alladin,

great post. well said.

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Post by bansy » 19 Dec 2007

Or is what I just outlined more to do with defaming individuals and individual name and fame "DEFAMING the Yagya" is different I presume. The aim and object of the collective therefore being to earn name and fame. Is this a worthwhile aim and object? Perhaps the following question would be, why would a collective want name and fame? And does it have to be for negative reasons?
Long post :

I am not sure if this is going on a parallel to that being discussed above but aren't members here struggling with the idea of what is deemed a culture which is more Asian than Western? In Asia, it is very common to call elders by names such as Elder sister, elder brother, uncle, aunt, etc and these terms are used towards people on the street and bus. It is quite a common thing in India, China, Japan, Korea etc; and I even see it in some black communities. The Western culture is very direct in terms of its relationships between people. You work in a US or UK company and first names are common between persons of a wide age gap; whereas it is not uncommon to hear even family-type (sister, brother etc) terms used in predominantly Asian companies. Thus when it is said that in Asia, the respect for elders is inherent in society, this is something that is seen from a Western (US/European) point of view, but in these cultures it is quite the norm. It all starts from the family at home.

Regardless of their inefficiencies due to changes in modernisation, the elderly are still given high regard because it is said that you won't be here if they weren't here (i.e. you would not have been physically born). It is very common to see children caring for their parents until old age and living together, whereas this is less common in Western cultures. In Western nations, there is a huge reliance on pensions and old age homes since no-one will look after them. But in Asian cultures, even with pesions and savings, the young look after the old.

Thus the Brahmin culture is in essence a family culture based on Asian traditions. If a Westerner has trouble with this, it is because of such sanskars. Whilst one may question the integrity of Seniors, there are two types of Seniors in the BKWSU. One type of senior is of the Indian type who have these Asian culture traits. The other senior is of the Western type.

It is very interesting to notice now that in the lokik world, there are over 2/3rd of the population in the Asian continent and that now India, China, Japan combined can easily surpass Europe and US economies in a few decades. There is a lot of collective cultural understanding in Asian countries to do this, and economic power and later military, nuclear and space power will come to the forefront. But the underlying unit of collectivity is the family units that make up the overall structure in these Asian societies. You see it simply at the airport, when huge Asian families turn up at the airport. Or go to your local shopping mall.

(Note aside - This is a slight attack on the new immigration proceedings proposed by the UK to charge thousands of dollars and restrict visas to 3 months on relatives visiting the UK, it is simply a racial tax ... anyway back to the post).

I feel many Asians do not really have same trouble with their relationships with BKWSU Seniors but they have trouble with their access. Whereas for Westerners, they are given the access but cannot bridge the relationship divide. Generally speaking, of course, there are exceptions. For those who have been centre coordinators, this may have given you the deepest insights to the Asian culture that is somewhat like a honeymoon as it is so fresh to experience at first but when the novelty runs off, and your Western traits return to counter those Eastern traditions. It is dealing with opposite forces.

The Western economic powers are very aware of this and try to penetrate the Asian countries, first by military rule, which always fail in the end due to the misunderstandings in culture. The West tries to imply that Western ways of doing things are the right ways, whereas the Asian nations utilise the Western ideas and assimilate them into their cultures. F1 in Malaysia, China and India, and look at the potential receipts in Olympics and World Cup.

I give this lokik comparison because this is also an alokik view. Westerners still look the the Asia and orient as still mystical and mysterious places. In the UK, the Chinese chow mein and the Indian curry and the Turkish kebab are at the street corners but a typical British dish is Cornish pasty and chips. In the US, the Americans love the Mexican food but not really love the Mexicans.

Double foreigners are told to be double effort makers and double this and double that by the BKWSU because they have to be able to cross both the bridges of the West and the East. Even Madhuban and Bharatwassis do not have this title given to them.

So when I see Dadi this or Dada that, I see an elderly person, regardless of their inefficiencies or weaknesses. Because one day I too will be seen in this way when I get older. This understanding of "age power" is an implict component within the Asian culture which is more acceptable even amongst young Asians growing up in western nations. When a BK allows you to sit on the ghaddi, it is not about power but about accepting you into this family, letting you sit on the most important seat in the room, not because of simply your effort making, but accepting you into the room. Even the Dadi in the room wishes you to sit there. Since you know that, by being on the ghaddi, everyone else in that room is probably even more humble and purer than you. It can be abused, but in the end, the true self eventually comes out.

What frightens many Western nations is the coming of Asian power into society, including the recently new CEO of Citibank and various posts. For every one US citizen skilled in making a GM car, there are 10 chinese and 9 Indian citizens with the same potential. Watch out for the trends in "Forbes number of billionaires" in the next few years.

I've raised a long post on many wide topics, a mix of lokik and alokik. I also hope if more Asian members in this forum can elaborate on this.

I am not saying what is right, but I feel that harmony only exists when one learns about acceptance in being within a unit. One can also be accepted into a number of units, as it eventually means acceptance of one self. I was watching a documentary and noticed that views of high school and university students 15-20 years old, are not so different. They all have the same potential and wishes for ambition and future of their worlds. A student wearing spectacles in Columbia University speaks with the same enthusiasm as that of one from Mumbai and another from Beijing and all have smiling faces. However, in about 20 years time, a many of these children and young adults will be limited by the "real" world and "borders" which they build around them.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2007

A good post too which I will think over before answering properly.

I think you are right that there is/was culture shock and a romance view on both sides of the divide, that the two are different and the Eastern way far more collectivist and elder respecting in general. But are the BKWSU elderly, especially the leadership, not "milking a cow" that they did not tend to, i.e. they did give birth and have a family of their own and yet they still use, want, like, expect the respect that a mother would have? Are surely they are not stupid of the pregnancy within the terms such as "Sister", "Senior Sister" aping as they do nuns in a monastic order?

I have to say here that a lokik family is imaginably more work, stress, pain and expense than an alokik family, so the two do not in my book compare. Frankly speaking, in my book, the alokik family, for all that it is, is a heavenly holiday for the average Indian woman.

Personally, I think the demise of family and collectivism in the West has been firstly political. Serving the over-arching industrial capitalistist state. Secondly, partly 'fair karma'. That is to say it has happened by and due to the baby boomers who, equally frankly as above, did not give respect to their elders and the old ways of living (they all wanted tolive in America) and deservedly lost respect from their MTV watching young until we got to where we are now.

The Elders of the East are tasting this too ... and in the BKWSU? Well, if you take on board reincarnation who is the junior and who is the elder?

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Post by sparkal » 19 Dec 2007

With regards to BKWSU, the position one holds in the organisation bears no resemblance to the true spiritual status.

It is important to remind our selves of this fact and maintain self respect. I am not suggesting that anyone here is losing theirs. It is important to expose the fear factors which can play on peoples conscience resulting in guilt trips.

I am sure there are a few guilt trips running around in BKWSU, which may or may not help.

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Post by alladin » 20 Dec 2007

Sorry, Sparkal, what do you mean? How can guilt ever "help" the person who experiences it? It is a feeling that drags the soul down completely, sucks its power away and blinds it. I was also reading a line in the topic "comparison and resemblances" with a sect, talking about the sect leader about "undermining" subjects.

Recently I had the word "empowerment" in mind a lot, and I was thinking of how in all our relationships and interactions we should have that positive effect on each other. :D

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Post by mr green » 20 Dec 2007

Defame the Yagya? ... OK then ... stupid feckers :lol:.

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