A lie is OK ... !!!

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jannisder
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A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by jannisder » 02 Mar 2008

"What is truth"? "Truth never changes".

13-01-2008 Avyakt BapDada 02-02-1969

... some children become confused because they were told through Sakar baba that the Subtle Region does not exist.

Why were you told this?

The mean reason for this was that, just as all of you must have seen when little children like something very much and they chase after it, even though it is a very good thing, when they like it beyond limits and they chase after it, what are they then told? That thing is than hidden from their eyes and they are told that it does not exist. They are told that so that the extra love they have for that thing is then put right. In the same way, at present many children cling to these things and so in order to free them from these, they were told by Sakar Baba that the Subtle Region does not exist. This was told to you children in order to remove your intellect away from these things. However this doesn't mean that when something is hidden away from you children that that thing finishes. No this is a yukti to free you from something that you cling on. This too was a yukti. If the Subtle Region does not exist, where do you offer Bhog? Why is this system still maintained? When there was any task about to take place, why did baba himself also ask for a message? It doesn't mean the Subtle Region does not exist.

So a lie is OK in order to remove "things" from your intellect? Than anything can be a lie.
  • "The Father can not break his promise" ...
    "If you don't follow Shrimat something will go wrong" ...
    "The intellect of those who are still working understand that All of it is for baba otherwise how else would the business of the Yagya continue" ...
    " Sex is worse than murder" ...
    "For as long as you have that body you have to stay in Yoga otherwise there will be punishment."
    "There is very severe punishment for those who become children and who than divorce the Father" ...
and so on.

The food your mother cooks for you is impure, as is your body, your thoughts an everything else ...

All a lie to remove your intellect from it and knock you out???!!! :roll:

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joel
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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by joel » 02 Mar 2008

The assumption that BK followers are as children, and that it is appropriate to treat them as children is the key underlying issue for me. The euphemism for concealing is typically something like "to avoid burdening their intellect."

In Zen there is the story of a particular master asked "when the Kalpa fire comes at the end of time, will this and all other worlds be destroyed?" his answer was emphatic, "Yes! Destroyed!" Another time, asked a similar question he responded, "NO! Not destroyed!"

The Zen interpretation is that the master was simply helping the student to move his mind away from the attachment to that particular (irrelevant?) question.

I think the dependency relationship is key, and is not specific to any particular group/sect/cult.

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Mar 2008

joel wrote:The euphemism for concealing is typically something like "to avoid burdening their intellect."
And the euphemism for accepting donations of property and signing over of wills is typically something like "to avoid burdening their wallets" ... you see, if you give to your lokiks (physical family) and they go on and sin ... you will share in that sin.

But, seriously, Joel is right about the infantilism of the system. Its has even been noted by academics since the 70s. They call it a university, but the teachers treat their students more as if they were in a kindergarten was what Babb likened it to. I would agree. It is part of the attraction for a certain sort of person, or many sorts of people at a certain point in their lives. ... all those surrogate matas (mothers) talking to you like a baby and thinking for you.

And, of course, combine that with the basic fluid morality of the traditional Indian skinning white folk routine and a lie is not so much of a lie but the start point of negotiation. There are few fix prices in India and few fixed truths in history of BK "Gyan". I mean, even "The Knowledge" does not mean "knowledge" per se, so what do you expect Jannis?

Well, that is my 2 cents ... for you I offer a special deal though! $1.50. (The secret is, never accept the 'first price' and never accept the first "Truth" you are offered ... haggle).

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by shivshankar » 03 Mar 2008

Om Shanti.

I can tell you anything I want for My purposes, because My purposes are to benefit you. As for lie, there was lie previously (predictions for example), but there won't be any lie now. It is time to clear all out and finish your study. And to pass last exam as well. So, I wish you to be lucky enough to forgive Me for some lie. :wink:

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by bkti-pit » 03 Mar 2008

I must admit that I have a problem with God lying and I don't really buy into this "Oh it was for your benefit" type of thing. It reminds me of the gurus who humiliate their followers "for their benefit".

What do you think Mr Green?

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by sparkal » 03 Mar 2008

This is an important issue, this, being treated as spiritual children by those who play roles within the organisation. They are there because they are children themselves and need to learn. God wants the spiritual children to become spiritual adults, even if those in centres fear such a thing and try to keep everyone at infant level in order to maintain authority.

I presume it is OK to tell a little white lie if it means keeping control and maintaining authority in case someone else "moves forward", something that is seen as a threat once again, even if the teachings ask us to put others forward, as a means to moving forward our SELVES.

So, parents put the children forward, but their older brothers and sisters bully them down again. Sounds about "right"/correct.

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by sparkal » 03 Mar 2008

Umm, I have posted a doubler. Shows how immature I am, I should be treated as a child, maybe sent to bed without any supper. That's it, children exist to be judged and punished, regimented into shape. "You have not lived unless you have suffered", they say. Time for something new, I think.

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by jannisder » 03 Mar 2008

"Responsibility is always placed on those who are senior, so place your responsibility on Baba and you will experience yourself as constantly happy. Baba is the bigger one, and you are the little children".

From the book, "Amrit Vela".

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by andrey » 04 Mar 2008

We are not impure, because someone has said so. If something is said with a purpose and the purpose is fulfilled is this a lie?

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by jannisder » 04 Mar 2008

"What is truth? Truth can not be changed".

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by paulkershaw » 04 Mar 2008

"The Truth of the Matter is ... " I'd suggest that it is possible that a lie can be also be someone's truth ... ask your local psychopath. He/she probably doesn't know the difference. If the lie creates the desired result, then its their truth. Yes/No ??

Just need to say here that 'truth' is not a registered trademark (despite what certain cults and followings insist ...) and is relevant only to the person/s working with it. 'Truth' is something that smugly resonates to one's belief system/s which for most of us have been adopted at some point and is changable and adaptable, as MOST of us already know. Truth is to a point of thinking, aligned with one's "false-self" which is an extension of one's ego. If one is living in one's 'truth', one would be happy and loving etc all the time but most of us fluctuate day in, day out. To live in someone' else's (or some other teachings) truth does work for a while but then we are eventually forced to find our own truth, and so we then need to make our own way through our own lives and no longer live in the shadow of someone's else 'truth'.

Truth is therefore not something one finds but what one emerges from within the self in order to live in harmony, grace and alignment. One discovers one's path through realisation and it is realisation that becomes one's truth and, yes, each person will probably at some point have to realise this too ... and, yes, sometimes we have to go and live in some one else's truth in order to realise for ourselves that's not 'our' truth and so off we go, on our own path called "via Truth".

I find it very interesting that my psychologist friend is now now consulting with an ex-member of another 'cult; and that his person, four years after leaving, is still not able to integrate into mainstream society at all, not able to emerge and live their own truth and considers their life now, a lie.

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by sparkal » 04 Mar 2008

For some odd and no doubt twisted reason, truth is related to knowledge. If we have knowledge as our truth, we are living a lie before we even get started. Surely knowledge is based upon TRUTH and is also easily tinkered with. So what is the source in question that knowledge draws from Our hearts? Knowledge truth can be dressed up any way we like, but an honest heart is more difficult to adulterate and falsify.

Of course, the thought does not arise to do so, does it?

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by bkti-pit » 04 Mar 2008

I really like what I read here. Thanks to Paulkershaw and Sparkal for their valuable posts on truth.

I just want to say something on the concept of God is Truth.

I first came across this concept when I was studying the life of Gandhi. He said something like: "God is Truth ... No! Truth is God". It touched me but I couldn't really figure out what he meant. I did not really know God back then but I knew intuitively that God was about goodness and anything that was promoted as being the Truth had no appeal to me if I did not see goodness in it. By goodness, I mean something of benevolence, care for others, justice and fairness, sharing of resources, something of that sort.

This is what I found when I came to the BKs. Not that I found it in the BKs. I mean, I find truth to various degrees in most BKs but I found the Truth in the experience of God I got when I came to the BKs. Some readers may not accept that it is really God I experience and I think it is fair and honest for them to think so. Thus let me rephrase it and say that what I consider to be an experience of God that I got when I came to the BKs resonate in me as an experience of the Truth.

This is where I meet what Paulkershaw and Sparkal said. Truth for me is first a question of true feelings from the heart and of being true to my own nature.

I don't know if there is anything like absolute Truth but, despite all the flaws in the BK clan which is supposed to be the direct creation of God, and, despite the inconsistencies and flaws I see in the Murlis which are supposed to be God's direct words, my experience as a BK has been a very fulfilling journey into the understanding and experience of Truth. A very fulfilling journey of aligning my life with the Truth in me, and if my life was to end now I think I could rest in Peace.

However, I still have a problem with God speaking lies ...

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by bansy » 04 Mar 2008

So if you have found/discovered/realised the truth, then what is wrong ?

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Re: A lie is OK ... !!!

Post by jannisder » 04 Mar 2008

jannisder wrote:"What is truth? Truth can not be changed".
This is a BK quote they say they only got the truth, so why keep changing it as it can not be changed.

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