A question to all

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yogi108
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A question to all

Post by yogi108 » 01 Apr 2008

Greetings and good wishes

I have been posting about various things I have seen/observed and experienced with the BK world, Bap Dada and the Yagya ...

I have some unanswered questions

1. All of us here have been going to madhuban following Shrimat, meeting Bap-Dada etc ... and, at some point or other, experienced bliss. Personally, I have at least seen a difference to me in my life ... So is all this false just because the Yagya re-wrote the Murli's or are hiding the truth
2. If God is not coming to madhuban, then who enters Dadi Gulzar ... ? Assuming its Brahma Baba then how come he isnt re-born ... ?
3. Even today the Sakar Murli makes so much sense/logic when applied in day-to-day life ... so is that just a mad man who just went about saying looney tales ... ?

4. PBK ... Veerendra Dixit. I have not met him but putting forth an argument here ... what is the authenticity that Shiv is entering his body ... ? If that's true, then why is the organization still at its infancy and so few takers compared to the BKs?

5. Are all the problems encountered here only pertains to Yagya senior Dadi's sisters and brothers? If that is the case, then what has GOD/Bap-Dada have any role to play? ... Has he not mentioned that you take care of yourself and not worry about the human beings who are still on their way to perfection/imperfection?

Now would welcome answers from everyone on these BKish questions.

Yogi

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Re: A question to All

Post by peterbindi » 01 Apr 2008

Dear yogi108.

Only i can speak for my self and that what i have learned.

1) To give an answer to your first question, Madhuban is trying to do its best, but it is not at all as Shiva himself in all essence. In Madhuban, a lot is manmat and that make everyone infected with it ( theirs ... Dadi's etc) manmat ... and not HIS thruth. The truth can only be 100% truth, then it is so important to find the real Shiva. I think it has a lot to do with Virendra Dev Dixit.

3) Murli is not about looney tales. We interpret it so and so, but this can be not the truth at all.

4) My feelings, or intuitions, tell me that i must learning from Virendra Dev Dixit, even in the pbk family they ask themselves who is who. And maybe a few are stronger than thousands.

Sorry that i am not able to give you an answer to all your questions. It is just my few at this moment.

peterbindi.

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Re: A question to All

Post by bluesky » 01 Apr 2008

I believe there are many answers to your questions, but my view is that:
  • Q1. Ans: Experience is never false and faith leads to experience. I do believe in that higher being, but it is something personal. You experience what you believe and what you see. But not everything you see is the truth.

    Q2. Ans: Definitely some part of Murlis makes sense, just take what makes sense to you and what is applicable.

    Q4. Ans. I believe that ultimately, you are responsible for your own action, thoughts and words. But to be responsible, you have to be knowledgeable about where you are, what makes up your belief system and faith, and why. But to answer your question, I think leaders here seem to have caused a lot of problems and unhappiness, I still don't know why.

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Re: A question to all

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Apr 2008

Please tell us about the problems and unhappiness this forum caused so that we can understand you are talking about.

Do you think that the Brahma-kumaris are completely perfect and above any criticism whatsoever? Or do you think that there are still some areas where the organization can be improved?

Of course, one of the things individuals are very keen on here is studying the Murli and so we are attempting to collect the set and database it. We believe that everyone should have access to them and the earlier documents such as the Divine Decrees.
  • Is there any chance you could contribute to this positive aspect?

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Re: A question to all

Post by yogi108 » 02 Apr 2008

Thanks for all the responses

First let me respond to EX ... I am not unhappy with this forum in fact I do log in almost everyday to read some interesting posts ... All I was trying to do was to understand some un answered questions in my mind ... So, yes, the Murli should be available to read for everyone. At this point in time, I am not able to think of anything apart from going to Murli class and posting an abstract for everyones use ...

BKs are an organization and there are leaders and members who contribute to the growth of the organization ... so to answer your question the biggest improvement I can see is;

An open guidance to students about handling themselves while being in Knowledge. There have been so many suggestions earlier made but risking repetition;
  • do not break marriages/relationships just to increase the cash-flow or increase the number of students
    do not ask students to neglect careers/studies/relationships
    do not make students do personal service ... its so demeaning to drive/buy vegetables/iron and wash their clothes etc
    Do not differentiate between Double Foreigners and Indian BKs, or for that sake the rich BK and the poor BK
There are so many i can think of ...

Peter, Thanks for the response. I do understand the atmosphere in Madhuban and I am not so sure anything better will happen. I was curious to find out if others think they left because of Seniors' interference and that subsequently lead to lack of faith in the whole thing.

Yogi

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Re: A question to all

Post by arjun » 02 Apr 2008

yogi108 wrote:1. All of us here have been going to Madhuban following Shrimat, meeting BapDada etc ... and, at some point or other, experienced bliss. Personally, I have at least seen a difference to me in my life ... So is all this false just because the Yagya re-wrote the Murli's or are hiding the truth
From a PBK point of view, although the corporeal role of God Father is not going on in BKWSU since 1969, nevertheless, the Yagya in BKWSU is being guided by the motherly soul of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and many souls of BKWSU are sincerely making efforts thinking that it is God Shiva who is guiding them through Gulzar Dadiji. But just as ShivBaba says that it is He who causes the visions of Hanuman, Ganesh to the Hindu devotees and also takes care of the souls of other religions, in the same way although the role of ShivBaba is not going on directly in BKWSU, it is He who sustains them indirectly and gives the fruits of the actions performed by the BKs. In Bhakti, devotees remember a non-living idol, even then they experience bliss, but here the BKs are remembering the point of light Shiv and trying to experience soul consciousness, so their efforts will not go in vain and they will also enjoy the numberwise fruits. Just because they re-wrote the Murlis, it does not mean that they do not belong to the Godly family.

(to be continued)

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Re: A question to all

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Apr 2008

yogi108 wrote:First let me respond to EX ...
Thanks, a good response. But not need actually. I have enjoyed your openness and honesty and was asking author 'bluesky' above. I like the eglatarianism you voice.

I am not enlightened at all ... but I always thought that it was really unfair to hand all the single and small bedrooms over to Westerners and then park the Indians on the roof or in refugee-like dormitories. I never understood the logic behind, "that is what they are used to" and why they need to pander to Westerners (unless for the money).

I am not enlightened at all ... but I always thought they ought to do it either by lottery OR by the same 'relative scale' that God Shiva, allegedly, operates to, e.g. poor widow's 10 rupees is worth more than a millionaire's lakh. That is, those that have made the greatest sacrifices ought get the reward of the greatest luxury. Many of those white jetsetters can afford to fly in and out of India all the time where some mataji, or poor South American etc, might have saved for years and travelled across India for days to make their single journey.

Likewise, I think they ought to rotate the interns/BKs they allow to stay at Madhuban. I think all BKs ought get a chance and that those BKs is a cosey little corner ought be circulated out into the real world from time to time.

But that is all 'off topic' ... I am keeping my head down on this topic now and leaving it open for more BK-esque answers.

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first class and economy

Post by alladin » 02 Apr 2008

Welcome to Bluesky who wrote:
Bluesky wrote:But to answer your question, I think leaders here seem to have caused a lot of problems and unhappiness, I still don't know why.
Typical BK answer is: "Such is their part in the Drama!" :roll: and we should not question that.

In the real world, there are folks who make a lot of effort in exposing corrupt political leaders and entrepreneurs, or other people who have some kind of power (media, movie stars ...), and misuse it. In the BK "University", our hands were tied, so we can only do it from elsewhere, i.e. from this Forum!
ex-l wrote:the same 'relative scale' that God Shiva, allegedly, operates to, e.g. poor widow's 10 rupees is worth more than a millionaire's lakh. That is, those that have made the greatest sacrifices ought get the reward of the greatest luxury. Many of those white jetsetters can afford to fly in and out of India all the time where some mataji, or poor South American etc, might have saved for years and travelled across India for days to make their single journey.
This and many similar things visible in Madhuban, the bright showcase, and all over the BK's world have troubled more than one BK. One doesn't need to be a magnanimous enlightened "Carefree Benevolent Emperor" to see that, it just takes some sense of fairness and egalitarianism. SS know that because of the undeniable imperfections and even contradictions within Murli teachings apparent in the "highest pilgrimage place", students have to be well prepared with brainwashing before they can access there, or else they will "get Maya" and cause a lot of nuisance.

I remember the distasteful feeling I used to get anytime I passed in front of the VIP dining room in Madhuban. The very existence of such a room was in such striking contrast with the Raja Yoga teachings, that it made it difficult to understand and stomach it. No, I don't envy the first class food. It's all fried, greasy and overcooked anyway. I prefer and feel better and more energetic when I stick to raw vegetables and fruits. Problem is, that many principles are first taught through words and stories (Sudama ...) and then in actions we see they are trampled over. How do you explain such dissonances to new students? There's a list of foggy excuses (BK speak) that BKs become clever with and that are handed down from whoever is senior to them?? A bad legacy but that's "Baba's system"!

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Re: A question to all

Post by bluesky » 02 Apr 2008

Hi ex-l,

The "leaders here" refers to BKs (leaders) not the forum. Sorry about that.

Dear all,

I appreciate some of the things the forum has been doing like providing Murlis, articles, sharing experiences etc. Will share mine whenever possible.
yogi 108 wrote:There have been so many suggestions earlier made but risking repetition
I think people leave this path (BKs), or question it, because what the Seniors say and do contradicts. People kind of loose faith in whatever the they say, although I do admire the sacrifices and commitment of these Seniors. However, I hope these Seniors will be truly spiritual and not do things with unkind intentions and instead consider the welfare of others, such as not breaking marriages, allowing people (especially youth) to further their education, using people's talents and capacity in a right manner, and not discriminating and misusing people. A truly spiritual person will be kind and good to others, although I sometimes think this is not happening as it should be in the BKs.

I guess this is the price we pay when an organization, especially a spiritual one, expands rapidly with all its resources and inputs. I would rather keep the organization small and simple, more quality than quantity. But will that happen? It's drama, as they say it.

Thank you.

Bluesky

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Re: A question to all

Post by in the night » 03 Apr 2008

Dear Yogi108,

I remember asking myself many of these deep questions, and I am still not sure about the answers. But after some time, I have come to realise that the BKs, and other truly spiritual groups, have a thing in common. Sometimes they are a source of divine knowledge and at other times they themselves defame it. In my humble opinion, this defamation consits on becoming "the" source of knowledge rather than a mike of it.

BKWSU (and others) are perhaps tunning into the supreme knowledge, but the reality is that they are none other than a "student" of it. BKWSU, as is made up of individuals, has become the "teacher", and then the source is being covered up.

When I say the source, is not as important whether it is Shiva, BapDada, Baba Verendra Dex Dixit, or just Dada Lekhraj, it really doesn't matter as much because those who beneficiate from the truth are blessed.

Even if it hurts, the whole truth is only available in one's own experiece. It may seem easier to define it in visible terms, but then it looses clarity.

Unfortunately, the very same truth can become a source of damage to the individual, and in the case of spirituality, the risk goes up. So, just in case, follow your heart and whatever makes it shine. In my opinion, this is the edge.

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institutionalized crimes

Post by alladin » 03 Apr 2008

Hi. Let me post here a piece from my previous one which went missing and anyway connects with the latest posts:

all I wanted to add, is that although we must be forgiving with the imperfections and bad moods of any individual, including spiritual teachers, what is not acceptable is that some defects have become the norm and entirely institutionalized, like that of holding back information, lying, corruption, abuses, the protection of unquestionable hierarchies, castes, privileges and injustices.

Its a big responsibility to turn vices into law and model, or we can call it bad example and karma.

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Re: A question to all

Post by arjun » 03 Apr 2008

yogi108 wrote:2. If God is not coming to Madhuban, then who enters Dadi Gulzar ... ? Assuming its Brahma Baba then how come he is not re-born ... ?
It is believed by the PBKs that the soul of Brahma Baba enters in her to narrate Avyakt Vanis. We also believe that has has not taken rebirth and is just with his subtle body (of Dada Lekhraj) and keeps entering into Brahmin children to inspire them besides entering in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit (Shankar; depicted as a half moon on the forehead of Shankar in the path of worship) to complete his studies.
3. Even today the Sakar Murli makes so much sense/logic when applied in day-to-day life ... so is that just a mad man who just went about saying looney tales ... ?
The BKs as well as the PBKs believe that the Sakar Murlis (narrated through Brahma Baba) were indeed spoken by ShivBaba, but interspersed with versions of the soul of Brahma Baba as well. But the Brahmin children are supposed to consider even the versions/interference of Brahma in the Murlis as the words of ShivBaba and thus He happens to be responsible for the results of children following those words.

(to be continued)

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Re: A question to all

Post by yogi108 » 03 Apr 2008

Thanks for those great replies and observations.

is not it amazing that lack of faith can really shake up and destroy respect we have cultivated and beleived in our spiritual journey ...

Just as an example ... I receive all sorts of classes in my email which includes Avayakt Murli, classes of DJ, DG etc ... Now, I do not blame anyone for this. I just delete DJ's classes and do not even make effort to read it ...

Another pointer to the BKs is that just go with the Sakar Murlis and Avayakt Murlis ... do not get others to give classes either at madhuban or any other center since when we come to know that DJ, sister Jayanti or BIG MO or Brian are like this and that we also lose the respect for what they have to offer ...

Thanks Arjun Bhai for the clarification but then I personally find it tough to but the logic when I am now struggling to find out who is actually coming to Madhuban!!!

Yogi

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Re: A question to all

Post by bluesky » 03 Apr 2008

Dear Yogi 108,

I want to add something. Although I am still learning, my personal experience is that spirituality isn’t just about having an halo, being an angel, having an angelic voice etc (though they can help), rather spirituality should be imbued in our action in a natural way without much effort. Honesty plays an important part in this respect.

We have to strive to be a great human who can help people in whichever way we can via our professions, behaviour and action. In this respect, we can imbibe good qualities of spiritual people, including BKs and contributors in this forum. Personally I don’t hate anyone, even the Seniors or people who has caused problems to me in the BKs. I have forgiven them. I have seen so many good qualities in Dadis like Dadi Prakashmani, DJ and sisters like SJ, BM and many other brothers and sisters. It’s just that I don’t get influenced with their words and action in ways that will deceive me. As I said earlier in my post, we are responsible for our action, so we have to keep ourselves safe and not get influenced in ways that will harm us. This is the most difficult thing to do, and each individual have to figure it out themselves.

As for God, I love that Higher Being for the companion, help and love that He has given but that communion is implicit and very personal. I still love God immensely. I must thank the BKs for the practices and long hours of silence, which remains a past for me. Yet, even more I believe living in the present.

Good luck and best wishes.

Bluesky

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Re: A question to all

Post by yogi108 » 04 Apr 2008

Dear Bluesky,

Thanks for the post ... i was talking about how we can get influenced by movies that are run in front of our eyes by others ... Like i had mentioned that i used to enjoy Seniors classes in my early days in Gyan appreciating their churning power and like someone even mentioned about, "Waves of power hitting him when Dadi Janki was giving out grapes to another sister in a center" ... these are awesome experiences ...

I recollect one Rakhi occasion where Sister Jayanti was giving drishti to a brother who had lost both legs ... I could feel immense power coming from Jayanti bhen and tears rolled from the brother's eyes ...

All said and done does this tranforms you and me, and the world in general ... no we have to make our own efforts and not guided by someone else's effort ...

I want to conclude that its been a joy participating in the forum and some very interesting experiences.

Yogi

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