Power of thought?

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Power of thought?

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Sep 2008

This is really a carry over from; All people can hear my thoughts where one ex-BK has been left convinced he broadcasting thoughts to all of the world (what they tell us we do). As it was as common to the BKWSU, and specific enough in itself, I thought I would start a new topic. I was surprised to discover that there was no such topic, if there is ... please merge this one.

Recently, mbbhat has written on more than one occasion about "the power of thought", thought and the soul being "the most powerful thing". This is concurrent with BKWSU teachings. Followers are encouraging to give up everything else and "become powerful" ... kings ... light house and might houses. Everything is about "Power".

Personally, I am put off by that. I think it speaks more about their political ambitions. I think it is a deceptive sell to otherwise weak individuals who are really getting little to nothing back ... give us your mind, your money and your time and we will give you Power ... POWERS ... you will become the most POWERFUL OF ALL! Uh-oh ... but it is common to many religions, e.g. TM and Siddhi Powers, Scientology and OT Power, BKs and Silence Power. Its all "power, power, power". Ethics, usefulness, ordinariness are hard enough to achieve and sustain.

OK. So to ask the question if this is actually real. Are thoughts the most "powerful" think or is that just a pleasant metaphor? How do we measure their effect? How much science has been done in this area and what results has it come up with? Can anyone offer a failsafe, reproducible experiment of powerful thought (i.e. 'do this' and 'that will happen' every time) or proof BKs are more powerful than non-BKs? Nope?

How often do we filter out of our minds failures of "The Power of the Mind" and exaggerate random and minor successes as "The Power of the Mind" as "proof". You know, e.g. when Baba or a Senior Sister tells us that "Victory is Assured" and it does not actually happen.

Now, I, personally, accept that stuff like "spiritual healing" or mind-matter influences happens. I accept that there has been science done in similar areas to evidence it, e.g. scientific validation of Matthew Manning's gifts. I am just not sure that we know very much about it, it never seems to be reliable, we have no idea of the scale of "powerfulness". How and when do we know if and when we are doing and achieving nothing and for how long? Where any proof or reliable testing and why it is just left to faith?

Is there any more proofs than the financial and political gains which are paraded in front of followers and conditionally shared with them? Are those so special and unique?

In common to this, I was thinking about "miracles", a common component in religious faith and one such incident in particular; Marc Koska (funnily enough a Scientologist), who was given an OBE for inventing a new autodisable syringe that has since saved millions of lives. And I thought stuff like that; science, medicine, engineering even, stuff that takes real hard work and work pretty much every time, are true miracles not sitting doing nothing believing one is being powerful.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by newlife » 05 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:Can anyone offer a failsafe, reproducible experiment of powerful thought (i.e. 'do this' and 'that will happen' every time
Yes, take 20 people and one by one drive them in a car whose doors are welded shut at 70 mph into a brick wall and every one of the 20 will have the thought to protect their heads and lift their arms over their faces in an attempt to protect where they are situated ... works every time. Unfortunately, part 2 of the experiment whereby the same 20 were told this time try to keep your hands at your side could not take place.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Sep 2008

Nothing to do with karma. I am not disputing the concept of soul.

Actually, I tried something similar in a car with my mother once when I was a teenager. She thought I was driving too fast. She put her legs up on the dashboard and her arms straight out towards the window screen. So your experiment fails. (I was not and I did not hit anything either).

I also think what you are talking about is just a reflex to protect one's faces and heads which are vulnerable and contain the highest proportion of nerves (equals pain). One that, say, boxers can train themselves to overcome. As a boxer, you actually move into a punch not away from it. If you have ever seen a professional boxing glove coming straight at you, you will know what control that takes!

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

Every thought (mind) has influence over the body. (Actually much beyond that). But the reverse need not be true. If a person is not influenced by the condition, his mind need not be influenced by the physical conditions, e.g. the state of a yogi, a brave soldier fighting.
1) Let a person die in an accident. It will not be a big news. *If he is murdered, it would be bigger news. But if it is due to family matters, it would not be bigger. 2) If a person belonging to one community kills another community, it would be a big news. 3) The incident 1) would be forgotten soon. But incident 3) may go on becoming younger (by repeated thinking) and the other community may take revenge.

If a student fails in exam, I may not get upset. But if my children or blood relatives fail, I get upset. The variation here is due to power of thoughts.

Even a thought (bad news) can kill a person. A wrong thought can make a friend as enemy and a right thought can make an enemy into friend.

One realizes what he thinks and not what he does, e.g a bus conductor puts his hand forward to collect money from passengers. A beggar puts his hand to collect money (to beg). The actions are almost indentical. But the remembrance is different. Hence the sanskar is according to smruti(remembrance) and not according to physical action. Hence thoughts are seeds. Baba says make thoughts pure.

One may consider a rope for the snake and get frightened. Even if it is rope, he had realized the snake. So, thoughts are always real = one definitely experiences what he thinks. Other things may or may not be real. Without thought, other things have no significance at all
.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by tinydot » 06 Sep 2008

I think a lot of people abused these technical words.

How could thoughts have so much power or energy?
Show me a psychokinetic human, then I might believe you.

In reality, it is just information being passed from one mind to another. Information can be highly entropic (disorganized) or negentropic (organized). It is an organized thought or meme (whether good or bad) that creates change in the external world (good or bad).

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

There are three powers in the world:
  • a) Physical Power:- Eg: Sun, machines, etc.
    b) Muscle Power:- Power in body
    c) Thought Power:- Both intellectual and emotional.
Many Machines have higher power than man. But man controls them.
Many animals have higher muscle power than man. But man rules animals.
A lion does not rule another lion. But man rules man. Because the degree of intellectual or emotional power in human beings vary a lot. That is why few people (a King) rules the whole country.

Intelligence can be copied or recorded. Science is the power of intelligence. Any action can be copied. There are Machines which do work better than man. Even speech can be recorded. But thoughts cannot be recorded. One can do or speak whatever he is instructed (in many cases). But he cannot think whatever he is instructed. Because thoughts are REAL. He has to feel, experience to the same extent, else he cannot.

Due to the importance of thoughts, Yoga is the most important subject in Raja Yoga. If one's thought is right, he can get love from Baba even if he is far form BapDada (physically). Else even sitting infront of BapDada and taking drushti is unreal. If right thoughts emerge in mind, a single point of Murli will bring a great change. Else bundles of Murlis are useless.

A student becomes doctor or lawyer just by reading and practicing the subjects, which are nothing but related to intellect and mind, which are again power of thoughts. It is just by power of thoughts the religious souls like Jesus Christ, Ibrahim, Buddha have become immortal and deities become World Emperors of heaven. Wait and see.

If a child commits mistake it is not punished. Even if a person is not directly involved in murder, but supported the incident, he gets punishment.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Sep 2008

More fallacies (false arguments) and headed off topic I am afraid, mbbhat ...
mbbhat wrote:There are three powers in the world
Actually, there are four accepted fundamental forces in the universe:
  • gravity
    electromagnetism
    weak nuclear force and
    strong nuclear force
No one really has a model for how the power of thoughts work, to my knowledge, which is why I am specifically asking HOW? What is the mechanism of the power of thought? How can we measure their "power"? which one of these forces included "the power of thought"?

And just to point out reality for you:
  • Humans does not rule the animal kingdoms, they kills or cohabits with them
    Dominant lions do rule over other lions
    Some humans make decisions over some aspects of some other humans' lives but not all aspects
    People govern countries by consent and democracy these days (its called development)
    And people tell others what to think all the time ... its entitle from education (when based on fact) to brainwashing (when based on fallacies or other agendas).

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

Dear ex-l soul,

I have explained my best. I give more preference to thoughts than actions. There is saying might (power) is right. But I think, the highest might is peace and happiness which are mainly power of thoughts. Let me preserve those power. All the best.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by new knowledge » 06 Sep 2008

Silence Power = Power of Concentration + Power of Purity.

seed-form Stage (Beejroop Avasthaa) may be compared to the Desktop of the operating system of a computer.
Mind may be compared to the Operating System of a computer.
Intellect is like Logic & Arithmatic Section of the computer.
Sanskaars are like saved programs of the computer.
God is analogous to Host Computer & all souls are analogous to Clients.
Soul is the Control Section of the computer-like human body.
Brain is like CPU.


What are thoughts??? Are they just electro-magnetic impulses emerging through brain-mechanism or much more than that?

What is the source of thoughts? Brain of the corporeal body? Or does thoughts emerge through subtle body or casual body?

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by tinydot » 06 Sep 2008

thoughts are like those tiny little [conscious] "keys" that unlock the door.

IT IS NOT ITS POWER OR ENERGY that harness physcical energy and do things. IT IS ITS CONFIGURATION (SHAPE) that creates change. It is a catalyst in itself.

A very "powerful devilish thought" that made to "fit" in an extremely peaceful environment would result to being rejected and would not have an impact at all. Thoughts are configurations of information. It can influence the mind depending how it fits and invades it. All thoughts have same power or energy (extremely very, very small compared to electron energy). It is its configuration that creates the difference.

Why are all thoughts have almost the same power? Because all souls think. Meditators even have less brain activity (therefore, thoughts are less powerful) compared to an extremely angry person (more thoughtful power).

BOTTOMLINE: NOT POWERFUL THOUGHT BUT QUALITY (configuration of information) OF THOUGHTS THAT MATTER

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by bansy » 06 Sep 2008

I thought (no pun intended !) that the greatest power of thought is no thought itself. Wouldn't that take great power to achieve ? :D

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by joel » 07 Sep 2008

Seems like hocus-pocus to me. BKWSU also present claims of magical effectiveness for 'power of silence', 'power of Yoga', 'power of peace', etc. To me, it's just another incarnation of the kinds of positive thinking philosophies advocated by Dale Carnegie and his spiritual descendants. Seems to help some and so why not try it? But there is no scientific underpinning of universal law that the BKWSU and similar religious cults tend to represent.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by john morgan » 07 Sep 2008

Siddhis = strengths

Victory did not happen because there was insufficient patience to walk a little further.

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by joel » 08 Sep 2008

john morgan wrote:Siddhis = strengths

Victory did not happen because there was insufficient patience to walk a little further.
In this topic, we have been talking about thought, and the possibility of power contained within thought alone, as if thought can be separated from action. Does that mean that thought separate from action has a different or potentially greater power than thought combined with such actions as speaking and cooking, which the ignorant-of-BK world also does?

Specific to your brief post, John Morgan, I would observe that you have introduced two metaphors. The word "victory" is invoking the "process-as-battle" metaphor. The word "walk" invokes the image of a person moving in an upright posture--action rather than thought.

Perhaps you are taking "victory" from ex-l's post about SS assurances of victories that were promised not yet achieved. But we are missing a subject. Is ex-l referring to his own experiences?

I choose other metaphors for my life than battle over X (X = old, impure, evil, etc.) And for speaking about thoughts, the metaphor of walking seems inadequate, belonging to the arena of action.

I conceive of my own personal evolution as a process of opening to be aware of all aspects of myself, embracing and integrating them. I see myself expanding (rather than walking along a path) or at times contracting, going inward, withdrawing into cocoonlike inner comfort. At any rate different than a linear progression.

To give an example of a common task, say repairing a wall, you can only go so far by thinking. If you are inexperienced, you cannot begin to understand the job without beginning to undertake it. If you are experienced, you needn't think so much. The principles themselves are simple: keep everything plumb, level and square; and measure twice, cut once.

The fact that a particular (BK?) carpenter meditates in the morning before starting a job does not make him a better carpenter than anyone else. As far as I can tell, there is no clear causal relationship. Some say that BKWSU is proof of such a relationship, that that social organization is model of harmony and purity that is setting the pattern for a future Golden Age. Others have their personal narratives of transformation having become aware of the power of thought.

For me, to be certain and emphatic is somehow suspicious in someone who presents themselves as spiritual. People and situations are different. I believe that no one size can fit all. Yet a person can be certain and emphatic about their own life choices, or about what they believe.

Simplicity and certainty are among the attractive aspects of the BK philosophy. Perhaps most of us would find our lives easier if some single fundamental principle (such as the power of thoughts) could be relied on to solve the problems or develop the possibilities within each relationship and situation.

If there is no one answer in the world, how could that answer be "the power of thoughts" ??

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Re: Power of thought?

Post by john morgan » 09 Sep 2008

Hello Joel,

Have you ever run a race without knowing it was a race? In life, the starting gun is birth, the finishing tape is death. To know that the possibility of self-mastery exists helps me quite a lot. We know that the tortoise beat the hare in their race. The hare did no meditation, he just sped around but the tortoise thought and acted. I was picking up on the no victory of ex-I's post. What we are before we think and how we use the rudder and engine of thought is of interest to me. Different identities and different attributes, so many for each of us. This thread is to some extent about broken promises and manipulation of others. I come from the personal empowerment school of thought which I am sure has existed somewhere out there in the world for quite a long time, it is not that school which I belong to.

In my school, I try to think about what I can do and how I can do it rather than get too involved "out there." Fortunately, I can feed myself, some cannot even pick up a fork. To them, what I can do is impossible. I like the idea of Siddhi as "strength," some call Siddhis miraculous or divine powers but wherever we are we take the next step, not the one down the road. As I like to see myself as strong, I like to see you strong too and whilst it is not possible to join my school, you probably have a university of your own. For me, thinking is important. I don't necessarily believe what I think. I just like to examine the process and try to improve it. Behind every act there is a thought, or at least a nervous reaction ;) . Whilst I know that thought can act, I am aware that it is best not to to think beyond one's strength. We don't know everything and we try to make the best of what we do. I hope this clarifies a little about where I am coming from.

Footnote. The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi died (left his mortal coil for the more esoteric of you) in Holland last February. I met him in England and in France. I did a little research on the effect of his death on TM organisation but only came across newly golden crowned Rajas fresh from the TM Siddhi program riding in carriages. It reminded me of a tale in "Meetings With Remarkable Men" by Ouspensky where he trimmed sparrows, died them yellow and sold them as canaries. This, of course, is my own petty imagination at work - I bet those newly crowned Rajas could teach me a thing or two.

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