Raja Yoga (What is it?)

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Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by uddhava » 11 Sep 2008

I think that the various yogas (jnana, Bhakti, karma etc) are methods / paths of achieving liberation and that BK considers itself to be Raja Yoga. Can anyone please tell me what is the BK / PBK etc view of what Raja Yoga is, i.e. how it is different to Jnana, Bhakti, Karma etc

Thanks

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Sep 2008

Sorry to be a persistent pedant but the BK does not so much "consider" itself to be Raja Yoga, or actually "ancient Raja Yoga", the BKWSU has ripped off an already existing term from an altogether different practise because it has a caché, flatters them and is good for marketing.

Additionally, I would like to ask about, and examine the use of the term. In Hindi, is Raja Yoga understand as "Raja Yoga" or "the highest Yoga". It is difficult for me to explain this right now, not enough time. But just as "Krishna" is a name, it is also a meaning, e.g. "the dark one". When "Raja Yoga" is translated into English it become a 'something' rather than just a description of something. Is that clear?

Wither their usual obsession with rank, royalty and status, the BKs also translate it as "the Yoga or kings". Historically, when did its use come about and from where?

The eight fold path, or ashtanga, was the original form of Raja Yoga.

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by mbbhat » 14 Sep 2008

uddhava wrote:Can anyone please tell me what is the BK / PBK etc view of what Raja Yoga is, i.e. how it is different to Jnana, Bhakti, Karma etc
I will try to explain the BK point of view:- Raja = Highest, King, Owner, Powerful. Yoga = relation. In the body, the soul is the king. In one sentence, the learning about the Yoga (relation) of the soul with itself, God, other souls and the nature is Raja Yoga. Yoga is related to karma, because when there is relation, there is karma (thoughts, speech or action).

Raja Yoga is GIVE RESPECT and TAKE RESPECT. That is maintain self respect (swa_maan) and pay respect. Considering the self as soul (Raja) is maintaining self respect and considering the other also soul irrespective of cast, creed and religion is giving respect to the other. In otherwords, it is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.

The teacher of the Raja Yoga is God himself, and BKs believe that God who is Supreme Soul entered in a human being and taught Raja Yoga. The purpose of Raja Yoga is two; 1) Become Master of Self (mind, intellect and sanskaar), then 2) Become rulers (kings) of heaven in the next birth.

Raja Yoga is to consider self as soul, forget all (impure) body and bodily relations and remember Supreme Soul. It is to have Highest and most powerful Relation (relation with God). The aim is to become uninfluenced by anything except God. It is being in the company of real King (God).
  • Raja Yoga is to rule the body including thoughts, speech, actions and including the sanskaars.
    Raja Yoga is Jnana Yoga, because it is based on spiritual knowledge.
    Raja Yoga is Bhakti Yoga, because true love towards God is necessary. [one meaning of Bhakti = love]. But since there are no karma-kanda of lokik Bhakti, Raja Yoga is called as jnana marga and hence considered separate than Bhakti].
    Raja Yoga = karma Yoga, because even if one is engaged in action, his mind and intellects are connected with Rajas (Soul and Supreme Soul).
    Raja Yoga = sanyasa Yoga, because there is need of sanyasa (sacrifice = disinterest ) of vices.
I do not know whether there is knowledge of soul and body in ashtaanga Yoga. BKs believe that world history and geography repeats every 5,000 years and hence God had taught the same Raja Yoga 5,000 years before as present. So, BKs call their Raja Yoga as ancient Raja Yoga. I do not know how others interpret the words ancient, raja and Yoga.

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by uddhava » 14 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote: Raja Yoga is Jnana Yoga, because it is based on spiritual knowledge.
Raja Yoga is Bhakti Yoga, because true love towards God is necessary. [one meaning of Bhakti= love]. But since there are no karma-kanda of lowkik Bhakti, Raja Yoga is called as jnana maarga and hence considered separate than Bhakti].
Raja Yoga = karmayoga, because even if one is engaged in action, his mind and intellects are connected with Rajas(Soul and Supreme Soul).
OK, so 'Raja Yoga' in BK is not really adding anything to the three more well known yogas. It is just a term indicating a combination of the three. I think the three all incorporate each other anyway so, for example, the path of Bhakti Yoga does not exclude jnana Yoga and karma Yoga but just means that Bhakti is emphasised above the other two. I wonder how the three are ranked in importance in BK / PBK etc or perhaps they are all considered equal?

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Sep 2008

mbbhat, when did the Brahma Kumaris actually incorporate a Shiva as God into their teachings ... in order to be the fixation of their Yoga?

I am looking at the earliest reference to "Sahaj Yoga, RajYoga" in the Brahma-kumaris I can find at present and it is in the 1943 'This Preordained World-Wide War of Mahabharata and Its Result' (page 19/20) - click link to download. It is defined as "Easiest Path to obtain highest Sovereignty" (page 33). At that time, their Yoga was with the Brahm.
Sanyas is of two kinds: one is 'Hath Yoga Karma Sanyas' realised by faith in 'Aham Brahm' through which Self-unrealised, unhappy, discontented, mother-hating persons - males only - infected with all the five vices, can attain the status of Brahma-Anandi Mahatmas for several generationas, and the other is "Sahaj Yoga, Raj Yoga, Nishkam Karma Yoga Sanyas' realised by faith in 'Aham Brahm Asmi' through which any vaisha, Shudra or the worst sinner soul - male as well as female - can attain the most Supreme Status of Vaikunth-Anandi, Jiwan Mukt, Double-Crowned Deity for numerous generations.

Experience gained through Divine Insight supported by the true facts of the Shastras shows that a human being believing himself as God due to faith in 'Aham Brahm Asmi' can alone enjoy everlasting happiness. The status of such a human being possessing this Impreishable Divine Wisdom is infinitely superior to Incorporeal God, since He alone can reveal and impart the knowledge of Infinite Divine Light
Also, the Brahma-kumaris did believe Lekhraj Kirpalani to be God.

What you write is taken, "copy and paste", from Hinduism ... as so much of Brahma Kumarism is. It is neither new nor unique but watered down and simplified. Originally, masters would help adherents chose the best Yoga suited for their temperament, e.g. Jnana for the spiritual, Bhakti for those ruled by emotions, karma for those most in the physical.

Jnana Yoga, or gyana Yoga, is the Yoga not of knowledge in the intellectual sense but the knowledge of Brahman and Atman. It is part of non-dualistic or advaita Vedanta as the early Om Mandli was, monists in that they affirm the sole reality of Brahman.

There are seven stages of Jnana; first, developed through a deep study of Atma Jnana Sastras and association with the wise and the performance of virtuous actions without any expectation of fruits. Constant atmic enquiry forms the second stage. The third stage is Tanumanasi, attained through the cultivation of special indifference to objects when the aspirant become free from all attractions. The fourth stage is Sattvapatti in which the world appears like a dream. The fifth stage is Asamsakti or perfect non-attachment to the objects of the world, no waking or sleeping in this stage. This is the Jivanmukti stage. The sixth stage is Padartha Bhavana or knowledge of Truth. The seventh stage is Turiya, or the state of superconsciousness and Moksha.

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by paulkershaw » 15 Sep 2008

I suppose the true answer to this question is "it all depends on the person involved in it". If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then so too is ugliness. What is food for one, would choke another. What a beauty competition to a winning girls parents is, may not carry the same conviction for a radical feminist.

Perhaps the question should read, "What is Raja Yoga to you?" ...

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Sep 2008

I am more keen to fix an objective definition of classical or ancient Raja Yoga before messing up with BK division. I am perfectly convinced that Lekhraj Kirpalani or the Brahma-kumaris just named the title and rough descriptions like kids stealing apples from an open market place. Probably Lekhraj Kirpalani heard one of his 12 gurus speak about Raja Yoga and incorporated it as an explanation and self-aggrandized description consciousness or unconsciously at some later point.

Classically, the eight limbs of Raja Yoga are:
  • Yama - Code of conduct - self-restraint
    Niyama - religious observances - commitments to practice, such as study and devotion
    Asana - integration of mind and body through physical activity
    Pranayama - regulation of breath leading to integration of mind and body
    Pratyahara - abstraction of the senses, withdrawal of the senses of perception from their objects
    Dharana - concentration, one-pointedness of mind
    Dhyana - meditation (quiet activity that leads to samadhi)
    Samadhi - the quiet state of blissful awareness, superconscious state
These are sometimes divided into the four "upper" and "lower" limbs. The lower ones, from yama to pranayama, being parallel to the lower limbs of Hatha Yoga; while the upper ones, from pratyahara to samadhi, being specific for the Raja Yoga. The upper three limbs practiced simultaneously constitute the "Samyama" or flowing of attention, awareness and energy in meditation that occurs so spontaneously and effortlessly as to be said to be nearly simultaneous.

The BK response would be, "Oh, yeah. We do all of that too ...".

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by arjun » 15 Sep 2008

uddhava wrote:Can anyone please tell me what is the BK / PBK etc view of what Raja Yoga is, i.e. how it is different to Jnana, Bhakti, Karma etc
From PBK point of view RajYoga means considering oneself to be a soul (a ruler of the bodily organs) and remembering the incorporeal Supreme Father Supreme Soul Shiva through His corporeal Chariot (believed to be Baba Virendra Dev Dixit by PBKs) even while performing actions. So, it is more of karma Yoga, but in order to have Yoga with the Supreme Father one needs to have His introduction/knowledge (jnana) and also devotion (Bhakti without the rituals).

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by mbbhat » 16 Sep 2008

uddhava wrote:1) OK, so 'Raja Yoga' in BK is not really adding anything to the three more well known yogas. 2) It is just a term indicating a combination of the three. I think the three all incorporate each other anyway so, for example, the path of Bhakti Yoga does not exclude jnana Yoga and karma Yoga but just means that Bhakti is emphasised above the other two. 3) I wonder how the three are ranked in importance in BK / PBK etc or perhaps they are all considered equal?
Dear Soul,

1) It is totally new, because the knowledge is totaly different.
2) Not correct because of 1). And in other philosophies, the three are treated totally different and are considered that they are cannot be combined or are independent of each other. For example, "kaayakave kailaasa" = Work is Worship = Find God in your work (karmayoga). It says there is no need to think of God. Do your duties honestly. There are stories written that a butcher can realize God if he just does his that duty honestly. [What about a thief?]

In the well known yogas (that were present before BKWSU), karmayoga means finding (assuming more precisely) God in karma. There is no need to know (no need of knowledge) who is God. But Raja Yoga is adding God and love (Yoga) into karma. Without knowledge, Raja Yoga is impossible.

3) But complete knowledge is huge and is like ocean. To remember God, there is no need of the full knowledge. Just the knowledge of soul and Supreme Soul is enough. It is just forgetting all the mortal things and remembering eternal things (Soul and Supreme Soul). Hence a BK Rajayogi forgets even The Knowledge at his highest consciousness. Knowledge is like boat and Yoga is like moving towards the goal. Knowledge is like ladder and Yoga is climbing.

At peak level, ladder becomes waste. Similarly at the highest concentration, a BK Rajayogi forgets knowledge (of 84 births) and merges just in God. Hence Yoga is called as vijnaan. Vijnaan has two meanings. 1) Better (Higher) than gyaan and 2) Without gyaan. Because Yoga (climbing the Ladder) is definitely better than just jnaan (having ladder) and at peak stage, the BK Rajayogi feels that he is not climbing at all (jeevanmukti stage, carefree stage, no tiredness). There is no dependence on jnaan. He is like embodiement of jnaan.

In Bhaktimarg, people have just faith*. No determination to become viceless (few exceptions are there). But there is no knowledge at all. Hence in BK Rajayogi, the word Bhakti is not used. Bhakta (devotee) has opposite meaning (ajnaani) of gyaani. Since jnaana (knowledge), Bhakti (love) cannot be separated in Raja Yoga [Actually, anywhere it cannot be separated. For example, to develop a relation (Yoga), there is need of both knowledge of the relation and love in that. Hence I feel that the so called yogas present in the world are false yogas].

Hence there cannot be ranking in true sense. But the percentage of Gyan and Bhakti (love) can vary from a BK to another Bk. One Bk may have more love towards God than having full knowledge of 84 births. So, in that way, it can be said that one who loves God and having less knowledge about 84 births is better than one who knows more about 84 births and has less love (remembers less) towards God. Hence real Yoga means right remembrance. There is both knowledge (right) and love (remembrance). And hence BK Raja Yoga is REAL. Note: In the above gyaan = jnaan.

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Sep 2008

I do not know of any BK that has realised their 84 births. I have never even heard that Lekhraj Kirpalani did. I have heard pithy excuses like, "oh, that would just be Maya and of no benefit to know" but nothing else.

Personally, if you were to add up all of the people of all other religions who were viceless, I would guess it would outnumber the number of active BKs who are not. 100s of 1,000,000 of people are celibate. And what about the more subtle vices ... the BK leadership would fail many times more than even humble atheists, let us start by leading people on by lying about their history and hiding the false predictions of Destruction.

This is what is disturbing about the romanticism that you write ... No facts. No evidence. Too much false logic. If you make a statement, can you please provide your evidence ... or else state it is "in my opinion" rather than pretend it is true?

Mbbhat, how much of other yogas, under how many other teachers have you studied, and for how long, to come up with such assumptions?

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by paulkershaw » 16 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:In the well known yogas (that were present before BKWSU), karmayoga means finding (assuming more precisely) God in karma.
... and surely there must be newer styles of Yoga that has begun since the inception of the RajYoga styled BKWSU teachings. What of them, how much truth do they actually perceive in their assumed role of worldy transformation? ...

Only yesterday I was eating lunch at a health store when a young lady was posting a leaflet on the wall about a particular type of meditation style, and the poster offered a free 10 day introductory course explaining why it was the ultimate of all meditation, with all food and accommodation being at no charge ... sound familiar to you?

Bing! I just realised that if I signed in for all these free offerings around town nowadays, I wouldn't ever have to pay a mortgage or even pay for a car. I could get it all at my feet if I just played along for 10 days at a time ... maybe if I called them they'd pay for a driver to come fetch me in their quest to prove their worthability? Become a 'spiritual leech' using the system for my own benefit ...

On another thought, why is everyone always looking for the best in something, the ultimate? Does it prove something? Its a world gone mad ... om mane padme hum hum hum hum ...

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Sep 2008

I can just imagine the conversation ...
  • "Mine is the highest Yoga ..."
    "No, Mine is the Highest Yoga ..."
    "NO, MINE is the HIGHEST Yoga ..."
And then the BKWSO, TM, Bikram Yoga and all the others go ... "Well, screw you, we just trademarked it ... ". (Thankfully, although they have trademarked Brahma Kumaris™, they have not tried for Raja Yoga yet).

I am sorry mbbhat, but can you feel how all empty this high claiming bragging sounds? Actually feel it, not think it?

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by mbbhat » 17 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:Mbbhat, how much of other yogas, under how many other teachers have you studied, and for how long, to come up with such assumptions?
The meaning of viyoga= break in the relation. [viyoga = opposite meaning of Yoga]. If anybody dies, it is said such a person got viyoga from his wife, children, etc. So, for me, Yoga means RELATION.

Without knowing right relation, what a person can do is just hatha Yoga, which you have mentioned. Can you say what am I? What relation I have with my body, my family, etc. Can those yogas explain spiritual, personal, social and official realtionships?

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:Mbbhat, how much of other yogas, under how many other teachers have you studied, and for how long, to come up with such assumptions?
mbbhat wrote:Can those yogas explain spiritual, personal, social and official relationships?
Well, the yogas are not people so they can explain anything but the scriptures, masters and followers of those yogic paths can and do. Take Taoism and Confucianism, for example. Systems that influences over 25 - 30% of the world population's lives (China, Japan, Korea and other Asian nations) and which yet does not feature at all in "The Baba's" Knowledge™.

That is why I asked you, and ask you again, how many other yogas you had studies. How many had you studied to know what you know and pronounce judgment?

I was thinking over the last few days about how BK Raja Yoga is not about finding the truth "Knowledge" but rather limiting knowledge (by excluding exposure to it) to a very small box containing a very few objects and a very few equations. Entirely faith based on largely falsified events, depending on corrupted definitions and strong on poetic rhetoric. BK adherents learn what to say to advertise their religion but do not necessarily know anything. Their teachers' status depends largely on none of their followers knowing anything.

They copy their teachers style and method which is based on hypnotic repetitions and a one way blizzard of false claims and unsupportable statements but fails on close and informed inspection.

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Re: Raja Yoga (What is it?)

Post by mbbhat » 17 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:1) System that influences over 25 - 30% of the world population's lives (China, Japan, Korea and other Asian nations) and which yet does not feature at all in "The Baba's" Knowledge™.
2) I was thinking over the last few days about how BK Raja Yoga is not about finding the truth "Knowledge" but rather limiting knowledge
1) Non-veg food has influenced majorities. Do you say that is the right food? In a class very few students get 90% and above. Majorities get 50%. Do mean majority is more correct? In the world rich people are few and poor people are more. Do you mean that poverty is better than richness?
2) In life, we need very few things, just food, cloth and shelter. But man has invented many things which are the results of wrong competition. Today's doctors know much about body. There is specialist for every organ. Is real health increasing in the world?
So, principle of life is simple. Jeevanmukti in a second! Manmanaabhav and Madhyaajeebhav. Father and property. Body and Car.
Logic:- Things which have highest influence will be few and will not sustain (be used) for long time, e.g. Atomic Bombs are less and few numbers are enough. Other guns are large in numbers. Similarly, Murli will be present just in Confluence Age and will make chadtee kala (ascending) and other sciptures will be present for centuries, but cannot protect the world from being degraded!

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