Re: BKWSU for beginners

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Sep 2008

I made a PDF of this and enclose it here. I also put it in the Library as; BKWSU-FAQs-Sept-2008.pdf so that it can be emailed to others.

It would be good if we discussed this and made sure that all the statements were accurate. I think it is except for, perhaps, mentioning that some people are happy within the organization and some people use membership of the organization as a temporary measure for whatever reason.

Perhaps a section on "Should I be worried if my partner/friend/child joins the BKWSU?" or simply, "Why do people become BKs?". The strength of the psychic/spiritual experiences is probably worth mentioning and that some people find some good out of it. I think it is right that we take a "bare bones" critical approach and alert everyone to the problems within the movement rather than engage in happy smiley advertising campaigns like the BKWSU itself.

As long as business is good and donations are coming in, it does not seem to me that the BKWSU wants to change or to inform their followers of the truth. I cannot for the life of me understand how they think they can create a Sat Yuga (Age of Truth) on the basis of lies, or how that is "spiritual".

To me, it is a violence against the soul to deny that which is true.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by yogi108 » 18 Sep 2008

ex-l ...

It would be of great service if it is not one sided ... there are folks out there who have gotten benefit ... but for those newcomers that would come handy ... I guess if it is their own experience, then that would be worth so much rather than hearing you or someone else doing the BK bashing ...

You don't have to put on the smiley BK face ... but strike a balance is what I am asking for.

Yogi

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Sep 2008

Well, you and others had better propose something, as I cant offer anything positive at this time. Personally, ever since Janki Kripalani chose to ignore any serious correspondence, I think that matters are too serious not to be addressed critically. Frankly, it has all gone on for too long.

I agree some explanation of why people do it all should be included and what benefits they receive in order to carry on. I mean, there must be some positive aspects. Perhaps dividing the earnest of the followers from the leadership ... whilst warning people of giving over too much of themselves to the leadership.

On the cautious side, perhaps it also ought to mention some of the stuff about Wills and property we discussed.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by yogi108 » 18 Sep 2008

Yes, you are right ... What I did not want to happen is that for the forum to be undermined as a one-sided BK bashing thingy ... which it is today.

Wills and properties, Wife and husband split, Career versus service, Sister's manmat versus Students lifestyle etc should be a part of what this should be.

ex-l, The stuff I read about in this forum is like too one-sided and, for a practicing BK, it offers very less value ... In fact, very few know of the Brian Bacon's SML business etc. So if highlighted it does open one's eye ... but a general way to do that could be objectively, is all I am saying.

Yogi

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Sep 2008

Yes, although I think balance deserves to be critical at present until the organization sorts itself out, I think the problem is that on the other side, when BKs do come forward, they go into hyper project mode, leave reality and ask to be brought down to earth.

The pendulum will swing the other way at some point. I think you sit at the balance point. My suggestion is for you, BK Pit and others to write down a category or positive notes explaining why individuals stick around.

In many ways, rather than do the mega-PR, the BKs ought to have an official "Dear Mom" letter explaining why their children leave them and join the Brahma Kumaris. BK apologists section, if you will.

Ditto, why it suits some Hindu families. The beginners guide is certain written from a Western perspective at present. For example, "it does not appear so cultic or weird from a Hindu point of view".

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by paulkershaw » 19 Sep 2008

I understand both points of view here but I can say that the forum is not truly receiving a balanced viewpoint, or interaction, which would prove otherwise. So, obviously, it's going to go in one direction, unchecked, if we're not careful.

I hereby make a suggestion that the BK members who are currently active on the forum write down in another column alongside Admins 'BKWSU for Beginners' statements and this should realistically be in alignment with the current teachings of the BKWSU ... if not another issue arises which may need clarity.

Then we would have two versions; "What the BKWSU teaches" and "What others experiences and/or research shows". This document could then be forwarded to BKWSU headquarters and yet another opportunity be provided for them to clarify in a point by point form the true answers, or versions of the teachings. Any discrepancy could then be pointed out and this would perhaps narrow down the points that needed to be queried.

A statement could be made in the link as to what and which points are under query with BKWSU and a time-frame be shown as to when the original query was posted with the BKWSU HQ.

Would this be more fair?

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by bansy » 19 Sep 2008

What is said above posts are very valid. I am also quite "shocked" to find so many things related to the the BK world which I never even heard of. One example is simply PBK. No small thing maybe in India, but for many outside India, the PBK is an eye opener (at least for me) as there are no PBK centres and I always thought there was 'only one BK, only one BK' (sounds like a soccer anthem, sorry) ... and that was it. Now there are lots of other threads. How much do I believe in them? Yes and no, no and yes.

But how would you read into what is written in the public domain wiki article about the BKWSU? Can we discuss on the wiki? How knowledgeable will a passerby be when they click on that wiki item, as compare to this website?

The Murlis instruct (= Shrimat) BKs to purify themselves as well as all the elements. I guess this forum is part of the elements too, so when are BKs going to come in and purify this? Without using the financial or legal (Kaliyug techniques) destructive route.

So BKs can either leave this thread as it stands, or come in and discuss what is wrong with the statements. I, myself, do not know where the truth is but if someone has got it, then they are welcome to share it. I hope selflessly, as I still see there is no differences in BK, PBK, ex-BK or otherwise.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Sep 2008

I could offer some very intelligent answers to your post about how the BKWSU are using, and perhaps even believing in, the academia that has been written about them, and using that to perpetuate the myths they have perpetuated to academics in the first place ... but I wont. Its a vicious cycle. Ditto, I might applaud you on your suggestion of the BKWSU purifying itself first and this forum's role in that.
paulkershaw wrote:This document could then be forwarded to BKWSU headquarters and yet another opportunity be provided for them to clarify in a point by point form the true answers, or versions of the teachings. Any discrepancy could then be pointed out and this would perhaps narrow down the points that needed to be queried ... Would this be more fair?
I think that sounds very professional and very down to earth. Its the obvious thing to do from a counseling/mediation point of view.

I have made a page over at the Encyclopedia that any one; BK, BKWSU, ex-BK, PBK, 'Friends and Family of' etc can add too. The direct link is here; Beginners Guide to the BKWSU.

It can also be discussed on the talk page. You have to log in again to edit I think but you use the same name and password as for here.

We have the BKWSU (UK)'s acting solicitor's address and email on the forum. If he is still retained, he has a professional duty to his clients to at least pass on the questions. I would say the request is perfectly reasonable. In my experience, writing to BKWSU (India) is a waste of time. To me they seem to think that they are above properly acknowledging a serious letter, safe in their palace at the top of the mountain.

But I also think the Beginners guide is basically highly accurate. It just lacks an explanation of what is positive enough within the religion to keep individuals hooked and a few solid statistics that only the BKWSU could give (e.g. how many leave, how many stay etc). My feeling is that instead of substance (e.g. ethical responses), the BKWSU is just more focused on keeping up appearances (e.g. PR whitewash, like Karuna Shetty telling the Moscow Times that Destruction between Russia and America was off the schedule). I can imagine how their wordsmiths would want to twist it. Destruction ... oops ... "Transformation" was one of the things they were discussing about whether they should be more open and transparent about!!!

Remember folks ... the BKWSU zones are discussing reforms in private right as we discuss here in public. And I dare say the leadership (aka The Family™) will meet to discuss again ... IN SECRET and in Hindi.

It was October of this year (now) that they were going to report back or meet up in Madhuban to discuss them from last year. Does anyone have an update? Has any center been sent a copy of the report? Thanks. It had better be someone else than me that addresses it to them.

(Am I the only person on the planet that does not like middle-class, journalist-type, WASP deciding what I should think or know and in what language I should speak? (No offense meant to the John Pilger and Duncan Campbell's of the world).

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by mr green » 22 Sep 2008

I thought is was quite accurate, it doesn't seem like bk bashing to me.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by paulkershaw » 23 Sep 2008

mr green wrote:I thought is was quite accurate, it doesn't seem like BK bashing to me.
I'd most certainly agree, from our perception and experience it's accurate and very direct too. We'd probably be told that we're out of touch with the BKWSU teachings considering that we've been out of it for so long.

And it's not exactly written in rose-pettaled flowery, loving language is it?

But for those within the BKWSU strong-hold, it may certainly appear to be biased toward them. So, I feel that they should then be given the opportunity, point by point, to suggest and prove otherwise. Again.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Sep 2008

paulkershaw wrote:But for those within the BKWSU strong-hold, it may certainly appear to be biased toward them. So, I feel that they should then be given the opportunity, point by point, to suggest and prove otherwise. Again.
It would also be sensible of them to balance and equalize what they publish and what we publish.

The reason for that is if folks read what they write and then, what we write ... immediately it is going to ring 10 times louder bells than if they admitted their mistakes and limitations, had full and proper complaints structure, center manuals, procedure and constitutions published in public.

I mean, if impure, unenlightened, kali yugi, Shudra universities and other organizations can do it ... why are "God's Own Chosen Few" not offering an even higher example? Do folks see through the PR and double talk? Of course.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by paulkershaw » 23 Sep 2008

Quite obviously the heads of the BKWSU are either in total denial of the processes are just too busy to be bothered to reply, as well as in ego of being the "chosen" ones.
There are many teachings around this world of ours that teach that their followers are the special ones who will save the world. What is it about us humans that makes us want to be more special than our neighbour and this search makes us sell our souls to any available guru/god? We've all spoken about this earlier....

I doubt if any beginner / newbie to the BKWSU teachings, after reading this pdf file under discussion here; could say that they did not know but there again obviously not everyone will be joining the forum.

The wording in the pdf file is all patently obvious, direct and accurate in my viewpoint. Even if some open-minded BKWSU member did agree to create a seperate BK viewpoint column in the pdf file, Yogi108 is correct, such person or input would be pushed aside as "against the word of God". Sad ideals indeed considering the supposedly high ended teaching of creating a new world, at this time the BKWSU, as an organisation, is unable and unwilling to take any step forward to live up to their 'words' - and lip service won't make a difference one iota.

The end result is that disrespect is created out of what could have been a respectful process of alignment and transformation with the BKWSU coming out shining, powerful and strong. Sorry for them indeed.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by uddhava » 23 Sep 2008

From Monism to Dualism and God Shiva

For the first 20 years, the Brahma Kumaris were a monist tradition in the form of orthodox Advaita schools believing that there was only one ultimate substance or principle called the Brahm or Braham. They practised faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi", literally "I am Brahman" or "I am God".

At some point after 1950, the Brahma Kumaris introduced an individual personality they called the "Supreme Soul", WITHIN that Brahm element or "Soul World", into their theodicy calling him "Shiva Baba".
This should be 'theology'.

I think also helpful in 'BK for Dummies' would be a basic chronology (don't know if this is already on the site somewhere) showing (approximate) dates for maybe the ten most significant events in BK history, e.g. birth of Lekhraj Kirpalani, first visions, first Murli, first Murli that survives today, death of Lekhraj Kirpalani, arrival of BK in the west, emergence of PBK etc.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Sep 2008

A timeline sounds good. I attempted to start one on the real Wikipedia but it was crushed and deleted by the BKWSU IT team!
uddhava wrote:This should be 'theology'.
I am not 100% sure of which but I suspect it could be either? I take your point but bearing in mind the important of The Knowledge™ ... I chose it because;
Theodicy came to be synonymous with 'natural theology', that is, the department of metaphysics which presents the positive proofs for the existence and attributes of God and solves the opposing difficulties.

Theodicy, therefore, may be defined as an attempt to explain the nature of God through the exercise of reason alone.

This is in juxtaposition to theology, which attempts to explain the nature of God using supernatural revelation and faith.

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Re: BKWSU for beginners

Post by uddhava » 24 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:I am not 100% sure of which but I suspect it could be either? I take your point but bearing in mind the important of The Knowledge™ ... I chose it because;

Theodicy came to be synonymous with 'natural theology', that is, the department of metaphysics which presents the positive proofs for the existence and attributes of God and solves the opposing difficulties. Theodicy, therefore, may be defined as an attempt to explain the nature of God through the exercise of reason alone. This is in juxtaposition to theology, which attempts to explain the nature of God using supernatural revelation and faith.
'Theodicy' is more generally known in the narrower sense of a religious justification for evil and suffering (e.g. why is there cancer?). The second definition which you are using is I think little used and quite technical, i.e. not really suitable for BKWSU 'beginners'. More importantly, even if you wanted to use 'theodicy' in this technical sense, it is still wrong in your sentence.

Perhaps you are trying to indicate that although according to BK, the knowledge is revealed by God, you don't believe this is true. If so, this is not necessary - the term 'theology' is now widely used to mean 'belief system about God' so 'Islamic theology' is what Muslims believe about God, and 'BK theology' is what BK's believe about God. In this sense, 'theology' does not concern itself with whether such beliefs are true. But even if you wanted to make the point that you don't believe BK beliefs to be true, using 'theodicy' is still not correct. Theodicy in this wider sense of 'natural theology' means using reason to argue for the existence and nature of God (e.g. the argument from design etc) i.e. choosing not to rely on 'revealed' knowledge. If the person uses knowledge which he claims (rightly or wrongly) to be revealed by God, it is not theodicy.

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