Avatar (what is it?)

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arjun
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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by arjun » 28 Sep 2008

uddhava wrote:Emanating from this Divine Yagya is the huge conflagration in the form of this world war, hereinafter called the War of Mahabharat, as a result whereof and as corroborated by most Supreme Gita and Bhagwat ... It in revealed from experience acquired through Divine Insight, corroborated by the All-Supreme Gita Scripture ... Is the above (from 1943 book) talking about the Bhagavad Gita scripture or something else?
Yes, it is talking about Bhagvad Gita only. When the Supreme Father Shiv took a divine incarnation around 1936, people believed only in the Hindu scriptures and Gods. So, instead of straightaway beginning the Yagya by giving knowledge by entering in someone, He started the process of establishment by causing visions of the Hindu Gods and Goddesses. And since Gita is considered to be the highest scripture among all Hindu scriptures He started giving knowledge by explaining the true meaning of the extracts of this Gita. It was only when people (early BKs) developed faith that the knowledge was being given by God Himself that He started narrating Murlis, first indirectly by dictating Murlis to Brahma Baba and then narrating directly through Brahma Baba.
Anyway so # 1 soul Krishna was born as Dada Lekhraj but for the first forty something years of his life Dada Lekhraj did not realise he was Krishna, and he only remembered when he started having visions - is this correct?
Yes, he got to know about his future status as Krishna only after he had visions. But it is also true that as soon as he had visions he did not understand anything. He asked his lokik gurus, they were unable to explain to him. Then on their advice he went to Varanasi. Even the Hindu pundits/gurus of Varanasi could not explain to him. He lived there in his bunglow for a certain time. During his stay in Varanasi he continued to have visions and he used to go to the banks of river Ganga and draw pictures on the walls based on the visions he had. This fact is corroborated by the following extracts from a Murli published by the BKWSU:

"Swayam Bhagwaan kahtey hain jab Bhakti poori ho tab mai aaun. Aadhakalpa Bhaktimarg chaltaa hai, din aur raat. Shuru may bhi pehley-pehley jab praveshataa hui (Maa ke roop may praveshata hoti thi) toh deevaaron par aisey-aisey chakra nikaaltey rahtey thay, jaisey chotey bachhey hotey hain. Samajh may kuch nahee aata tha. Ham tum sab babies thay, fir dheerey-dheerey buddhi may aata gayaa. Abhi tum padhkar hoshiyaar huay ho toh bilkul sahaj reeti samajha saktey ho. Aisey nahee samajhnaa yah bahut puraaney bachhey hain, isliye hamsey hoshiyaar hain. Ham toh itnaa padh nahee sakengey. Baba kahtey hain – pichaadi may aaney vaaley bahut aagey ja saktey hain. Deri say aaney vaaley aur hee din-raat Yoga may mast ho lag padengey." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.05.07, pg 3)

“God Himself says – I come when Bhakti completes. For half a Kalpa/cycle the path of devotion (i.e. Bhaktimarg) goes on, day and night. Even in the beginning, initially when there was entry (In the beginning entry used to take place in the form of mother), then he used to draw the pictures of World Cycle like this, just as there are small children. (He) Did not understand anything. You and I were all babies; then gradually it went on entering the intellect. Now you have studied and become intelligent.

So, you can explain very easily. Do not think that - "These are very old children, that is why they are more intelligent than us. We will not be able to study to that extent." Baba says – Those who come late can gallop ahead (of others). Those who come late would become even more intoxicated in Yoga day and night.”
(Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.05.07, pg 3 published by BKs)

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bansy
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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by bansy » 29 Sep 2008

If I am correct in understanding the previous posts n this thread, what is being suggested is that Gyan, according to the BKs (and thereafter PBKs), is a totally different interpretation of the Copper Age Bhagavad Gita, or rather it is not the same at all and cannot be compared.

Then why are the symbols and names and places used in Gyan (aka Murlis) taken from Copper Age symbols, names goddesses etc, when all these are used and are (degraded) human-made ? Why use the word Gita as in "True Gita" if the Copper Age Gita is of no importance ?

A new religion with old ideas ? Or an old religion with new ideas ?

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arjun
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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by arjun » 29 Sep 2008

sister bansy wrote:If I am correct in understanding the previous posts n this thread, what is being suggested is that Gyan, according to the BKs (and thereafter PBKs), is a totally different interpretation of the Copper Age Bhagavad Gita, or rather it is not the same at all and cannot be compared.
Yes, if you take the traditional Hindu interpretation of Gita, the interpretation of Gita from BK/PBK point of view is completely different. The basic difference pertaining to the narrator of Gita. Hindus believe it is the Copper-Aged Krishna while BKs/PBKs think it is Shiva. Hindus interpret it to mean that they should remember Krishna in the popular deity form whereas BKs/PBKs interpret it to mean that they should remember incorporeal Shiva.

But just as there is a difference between the Hindu and BK/PBK interpretation of Gita, there is a difference between the BK and PBK interpretation of Gita. BKs think that Dada Lekhraj (the soul of Golden Aged Krishna) is the practical form of God, also evidenced by the early Yagya documents produced on this forum, while PBKs believe that the practical form of God, who narrates the true Gita is ShivShankar Bholeynath, i.e. the incorporeal God Shiv through Shankar who attains 100% incorporeal stage in the Confluence Age.
Then why are the symbols and names and places used in Gyan (aka Murlis) taken from Copper Age symbols, names goddesses etc, when all these are used and are (degraded) human-made ? Why use the word Gita as in "True Gita" if the Copper Age Gita is of no importance ?
As I have already said earlier, Hindus believe that Gita is the highest scripture. So, they would accept Shiva as the highest on high God only when they understand that even the Sanskrit Gita points towards ShivShankar as God. So, in order to make them realize God, the symbols, names and places used in Gyan are from the Bhakti scriptures. It should not be thought that the Sanskrit Gita is completely human-made or unimportant because the inspiration for the same was received by its author from ShivBaba in the Confluence Age while he was a BK/PBK. So, it does contain the essence of the teachings contained in the Murlis.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Sep 2008

uddhava wrote:It was mentioned in another post that in the BK view, Dada Lekhraj 'is certainly not regarded as an avatar'. Can anyone please tell me what is the BK / PBK view of what 'avatar' means and why is it wrong to apply this to Dada Lekhraj?
arjun wrote:I think 'incarnation' is the most popular term in English used for the translation of 'avatar'. But the last meaning given in the above dictionary, i.e. exhibition into human form' seems to be more apt.
I would say the most common view is that in Hindu Mythology, an avatar is the descent of a deity, or 'the Deity', onto the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape. That is to say, the incarnation of a god. This has been adopted by the New Age movement in the West and "avatars" extended to include claimed "Ascended Masters", i.e. spirit entities claiming to past incarnations of saints, masters, magi, high minded individuals, interplanetary or even inter-dimensional aliens.

As you probably know, famously in Hindu mythology, Vishnu has ten documented instances of incarnating as an avatars. I think a "major incarnation of God", rather than merely a reincarnation would translate the concept. Of course, its all twaddle and all sorts of exaggerated "my guru or spirit guide is better than your guru spirit guide" type of claims are made by various sects and psychic mediums.

I think within the BKWSU, the emphasis is being placed on the claim that Lekhraj Kirpalani, or BapDada is not AN avatar (one of many) but is THE one and only incarnation of God. That is to say, they do not believe that there are "various incarnations" of God just as they do not believe in the same concept of the Kalpa.

Inherent in this tactic is the attempt to defray claims being made on Lekhraj Kirpalani, or Shiva Baba's spirituality by other sects, e.g. for those that run Vaishnavite religions to turn around and say, "Oh, BapDada is just another incarnation of our Krishna, or Vishnu" and for them to adopt him as a saint or avatar.

Behind this one sees the obvious, that religion is not about the revelation of God, but protecting the interests and position of the leaders of the religion and their control over the resources (free labor, money, mental real estate) of their followers.

By attempting a monopoly over "God", and not sharing him with anyone else, the leaders of the BKWSU take full control over those resources. In a country like India, of course, this is hugely valuable as establishing one's self as a head of a temple (as the BKWSU is) ensures at the very least that one is fed, clothed, watered and server by others every day.

In truth, I think that Shiva Baba is on a par with the so-called "ascended masters" of the West but is just taking its cues from the SIndhi/Hindi community it incarnated into and marketing itself within the Hindu context. In my opinion, it is a bit of a chameleon putting on a show really, the true nature of which is really only seen in the leadership when you come up close to them and is not that pretty.

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by paulkershaw » 30 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:In truth, I think that Shiva Baba is on a par with the so-called "ascended masters" of the West but is just taking its cues from the SIndhi/Hindi community it incarnated into and marketing itself within the Hindu context.
IMO, and in my experience as a "trance channel", I tend to agree with ex-l's statement. I'd say that the BapDada / ShivBaba of the BKWSU mold is an ascended being, and only one of hundreds of thousands available to humankind to 'follow' and all saying pretty much the same thing, in their own way. Some say it better and are more updated of course.

The rest of the BKWSU story is simply theory; legend, myth and re-worked carbon copies of other teachings all rolled into one big experience which suits its leaders and has many people biting at the bit to follow the teachings in a reward / praise-worthy seeking manner but like-wise has many others moving rapidly away as they realise the useless folly of it all.

Humankind probably needs to save itself from itself. Anyone know how to do that?

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by mr green » 30 Sep 2008

I can see this belief, that Shiva is a spook and one with unpleasant hungers.

But sometimes I just think there is nothing at all. I NEVER ever felt I was in communication with another in Yoga, and always smelt the odour of untruth when others shared their 'experiences' of such.

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Sep 2008

mr green wrote:I can see this belief, that Shiva is a spook ... but sometimes I just think there is nothing at all.
I cant exclude that possibility either. The power of suggestion is very powerful.

To answer a different question, would it matter if there was nothing out there? For most followers ... no. No at all. Their lives would go on the same whether at playing guru or chela or pundit, whether abuser or victim. Even if Lekhraj Kirpalani came back and told every one he was moving on ... 'The They' would just incorporate that in a different manner in order to keep the business running, changing the Murlis again and celebrating it annually for the next 70 years.

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by paulkershaw » 30 Sep 2008

Considering that so many BK followers seem to want to emulate their new guru/s, the Dadi's - and become just like them, no. If nothing is there or otherwise may not matter one iota to many. But in the west it will because many westerners don't have the spiritual / religious background that the India BK counterparts have to deal with in their belief systems. Many will have simply swung from one guru to another one who has promised them more.

However, I have first hand experience of Dada Lekhraj / Brahma Baba definitely being in the spirit realms so we know he exists there at least. I recognise that even this statement is unprovable though so I s'pose its again a case of what one wants to believe in that will win the day. An avatar is simply a bodiless being at the very least and the only way it or they can prove they exist is by making themselves known through various ways and methods. Just because they are bodiless, does not mean that it / they are any more conscious or intelligent or wise than Joe Black living on earth.

It's the relationship that one on earth has with that Avatar that creates it's power. See what God has done for humanity.

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uddhava
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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by uddhava » 30 Sep 2008

paulkershaw wrote:Many will have simply swung from one guru to another one who has promised them more.
The Religious marketplace
ex-l wrote:In truth, I think that Shiva Baba is on a par with the so-called "ascended masters" of the West but is just taking its cues from the SIndhi/Hindi community it incarnated into and marketing itself within the Hindu context.
God entering the body of a human in order to speak is I think quite an unusual idea in pre-twentieth century religion. I suppose the nearest thing would be shamanism which is gods rather than Gods.

Then in the twentieth century in the West there is the New Age scene but again this is gods / divine beings rather than God. I would like to ask Arjun or anyone about the situation in India - other than the BK family, does the soul of God or other divine being enter the body of a human in Indian religion?

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Oct 2008

Actually, we note elsewhere on the forum a number of others claiming to channel or be mediums for God in one way or another.

Google would also let you know too. I also think that it has been going on in perpetuity. The New Age of the 60/70s, The 30s, The Modern Spiritualism of the 1870s, Swedenborg in the 1780s ... you can keep going back and back and outwards to other geographies. I listen a few in the topic on previous female spiritual leaders.

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by paulkershaw » 01 Oct 2008

Then in the twentieth century in the West there is the New Age scene but again this is gods / divine beings rather than God. I would like to ask Arjun or anyone about the situation in India - other than the BK family, does the soul of God or other divine being enter the body of a human in Indian religion?
Dependent on one's consciousness (read = what you have been trained to believe) - the gods of India are indeed God to those worshippers. To the worshippers of God (through their iconic master which in itself is so hypocritical), the gods of the east are false gods. Who's right? None of them.

That is where the BKWSU's power comes in. Slap bang in the middle of it all. They grab those in the East, and in the West, who may be wondering where they fit in to the grander scheme of things.

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Re: Avatar (what is it?)

Post by arjun » 01 Oct 2008

uddhava wrote:I would like to ask Arjun or anyone about the situation in India - other than the BK family, does the soul of God or other divine being enter the body of a human in Indian religion?
Unlike BKs/PBKs, the common Hindu does not believe in a single God. I have not heard about Brahma, Vishnu or Shankar entering in Hindus, but I have definitely heard and even witnessed the entry of other souls believed to be smaller deties/gods, like Hanuman, female deities (called Devis).

My Father remembers very well how a soul (believed to be Hanuman) used to enter in an elderly female relative and give directions on important family matters. Even in her case, there used to be physical changes just as in case of Gulzar Dadi. Such incidents are common in villages and towns of India till date. I have a colleague from Bihar who has witnessed such incidents in his family.

Apart from this, during special occasions and on festivals dedicated to female Hindu deities, souls (believed to be of those Devies) enter in designated persons (especially virgins) and make forecasts or give directions, etc. I have witnessed some such incidents.

Regards,
Arjun

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