Picture Of Shiva Baba

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andrey
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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 29 Dec 2008

Who says Virendra Dev Dixit is Shiv?

It is practical matter. There are cases when male and female both follow the path of knowledge. The female is not following the directions of her husband, but of ShivBaba and the husband does not object, becuase he understands ShivBaba is the Supreme Father, Creator of heaven etc.

A point of light is only a symbol. In fact even the Picture of a point of light is not correct, because it is not as big as it is shown in the picture, nor it is material light, like material star, but light of knowledge etc. Anyway no one will object if someone wears symbol like point of light, swastika, shivling etc, because it is not personal. Where is the matter of saying this in the Murli in comparison with the images of the lokik gurus? It is because the real guru cannot be seen with the eyes and it is not like any human. Like each soul is unique but we only can come to know if it enters a body. As souls are unique, bodies are also unique, so it is one unique body in which the Supreme Soul enters. It is not a matter of keeping a physical photo or image. no one does this. It is a matter of keeping a picture in the mind that where in whom has the Supreme Soul incarnated. Only then we can say Shiv has an image or murti. Otherwise a point of light only is called amoorth, with no image at all.

Of course here also it applies the point that which point of light is Shiva and which not. If you put just a point of light anyone can pretend it is also an image of a human.

P.S. There is even no need to shout. We can well understand through small, black letters. It is the subtle meaning that is important and not the gross way of saying. It is only this habit of proving through force.

The difference between the laukik and alaukik worlds is that in the laukik world people love one another and in the alaukik world everyone loves one Supreme Soul.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 29 Dec 2008

It is said Trimurti Shiv. Maybe this is the image of Shiv and it is not like the image of any human, because no human has 3 forms.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by shivshankar » 29 Dec 2008

O, man. Can you please turn on your logic function. It is simple. If you will concentrate your mind on the Chariot (of your choice of course) it means that you are also concentrating on the material things. Because body is material thing. We receive power from God, who/which is NOT of material nature. God have NO material body. He only use material body for purpose of introduction some (only some yet) proper information about this world. We will become SOUL conscious if we will meditate on the Supreme Soul, not the Supreme BODY.

In my experience: I receive more power when I meditate on the Supreme Soul in Paramdham, than if I meditate on Supreme Soul in Brahma Baba's fine body in the Subtle Region.

All I offer to you is simple experiment: 3 types of meditation
1) Supreme Soul in Virendra Dev Dixit's body
2) Supreme Soul in BB's fine body
3) Supreme Soul in Paramdham

If you will try it as a scientist and be honest with yourself, you will see the result. Please throw out all theories and make an experiment.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by arjun » 30 Dec 2008

john wrote:Here it is saying husbands won't like the image of someone else, but if it's an image of Shiva they will be OK.
The Murli point mentions about the lokik women wearing the physical pictures of lokik gurus and thus angering their husbands, but PBKs don't carry/display the picture of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit either on their person or anywhere at their homes/centers. Neither do they remember Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. They just remember the Supreme Soul Shiv through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. So, you simply cannot compare both situations.

Moreover, as Andrey has pointed out correctly, the image of Shiv is not a point of light but Trimurti Shiv, which He Himself mentions repeatedly in the Murlis spoken through Brahma Baba, but BKs concentrated on revealing just Brahma Baba to the world.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by shivshankar » 30 Dec 2008

Brahma Baba is not a God. He shouldn't be revealed to the world. God should and will be revealed to the world.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by button slammer » 31 Dec 2008

john What is this picture of Shiva mentioned in Murli 19/07/03?

So what method can you create so that you continue to remember the Father again and again? Baba gives this advice: Each of you should keep a picture of Shiv Baba in your home. On seeing Shiv Baba’s picture, you will understand that the unlimited Father, the Purifier, has come to establish the pure world. We are claiming our inheritance of self-sovereignty of heaven, from Him as we did 5000 years ago. Souls understand that they will go to heaven and rule their kingdom through a body. This is something we never even dreamt of. That One has now come. Therefore, make a little room and keep a picture of Shiva there and write: Baba has come. He has to come to change the residents of hell into the residents of heaven. If you continue to look at Shiv Baba again and again, you will remember Him.
Each of you should keep a picture of Shiv Baba in your home.
ShivBaba is teaching the family path. Charity begins at home. No need for extra expense, time, effort to build a temple, or go on pilgrimages.
''Therefore, make a little room and keep a picture of Shiva there and write: Baba has come. He has to come to change the residents of hell into the residents of heaven. If you continue to look at Shiv Baba again and again, you will remember Him.''
Also, no need to build expensive palace like ashram. Just a small space is required for service. By writing points about the role of ShivBaba, eventually you will be able to explain very nicely to any visitors. Initially we don't comprehend fully the role of ShivBaba. But by 'looking' again and again, the intellect matures and our rememberance becomes firm; understanding develops. Here I understand the 'picture' of ShivBaba to mean whatever you have understood up till now. Keep looking and keep revising, eventually you'll remember ShivBaba as He is and who He is, the telepathic link remains unbroken. ShivBaba is the most humble and obedient servant of His children. To the extent we look and remember He will be present. :D

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 02 Jan 2009

If you will concentrate your mind on the Chariot (of your choice of course) it means that you are also concentrating on the material things.
In the Murli it is said that you should remeber the soul, but the body is surely also remembered. When we are to give a searchlight to someone we remember the face and then the soul. Otherwise how can we recognize which soul we remember? A soul with no body, a soul in Paramdham is like nonliving it is said like this in te Murli. Whatever you suggest is not according to the Murli so why should i listen to what you say. In the Murli it is clearly said that "I don't enter the Subtle Region dweller", so there is no sense in remembering him there. Remembrance of home is common. Many had tried. It gives results that mind gets refined but heart not. One could not possibly love a point of light in the way one could love a living soul and personality, nor can the remembrance be easy and natural and constand, but stays through effort. In the same time we remember whatever we see, feel etc. For God it is said that he changes the world through his practical company, through his vision etc, for this he needs to come in a body and we can have all connections through all organs with him, but if you like to invent some new methods then this will bring loss to those who listen to you.
Brahma Baba is not a God. He shouldn't be revealed to the world. God should and will be revealed to the world.
Brahma baba is not God. Who is God? How will he be revealed to the world. How will a point of light be revealed to the world?

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 02 Jan 2009

Picture of ShivBaba can also be the shivling, that no human is with such a nirakari stage. When in the Murlis it is said that form one side we should put the picture of Krishna with his qualities and at other of Shiva with his qualities i believe it is prepared with the shivling. It can also be wrong like many other pictures.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 02 Jan 2009

andrey wrote:
In the Murli it is said that you should remeber the soul, but the body is surely also remembered.
In Murli it says you have to forget all bodily beings including your own body.

andrey wrote:-
but if you like to invent some new methods then this will bring loss to those who listen to you.
Andrey please don't be deceptive on purpose or otherwise, Shivashankar is not making up new methods.
If you don't read Murli as you have already admitted then you will not know of these things.


In Murli it says the image of a soul is like a star and also the image of the Supreme Soul is the same.
So therefore will the picture of ShivBaba be the image as described or something different?

It will be good if anyone can find Murli points which actually say the image of Shiva is different to this and that the picture of Shiva will be something other than a soul.
Original Murli points please.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by arjun » 04 Jan 2009

Om Shanti. There is an interesting Murli point on ShivBaba's picture published by BKs in a revised Murli of 2008 as follows:

"Baap kahtey hain tumko koi bhi chitra rakhney kee darkaar nahee. Kyaa tum ShivBaba ko nahee jaantey jo chitra rakhtey ho? Kya chitra rakhney say Yaad kar saktey ho? Baba jeeta hai fir bachchey chitra kyon rakhengey? Baap tumko gyaan dey raha hai fir chitra kya karengey? Boodhey hain Yaad bhool jaati hai isliye chitra diya jaataa hai. Baaki aur koi bhi dehdhaari ko Yaad kartey rahengey toh anth samay vahee Yaad aayega. Kuch na kuch rag hai toh vah tumhaarey peechey padega. Fir bhaley kitney bhi ShivBaba ke chitra rakho. Agar rag aur taraf hogi toh vah Yaad jaroor aayega. Isliye Baap kahtey hain bachchey poora nashtomoha ho jaao." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 26.12.07, pg 3&4)

“The Father says : there is no need for you to keep any pictures. Don’t you know ShivBaba, that you keep (His) pictures? Can you remember (Him) by keeping (His) pictures? When Baba is alive, why will children keep pictures? The Father is giving you knowledge, then what will you do with pictures? There are aged ones; they forget to remember (Baba), this is why picture is given. But if you keep remembering any other bodily being, then in the end just his thoughts will come to your mind. If there is attachment to some extent or the other, then he will chase you. Then no matter how many pictures of ShivBaba you keep if you have attachment for someone else, he will certainly come to your mind. This is why the Father says : Children, become completely victorious over attachment.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.12.07, pg 3&4 published by BKs)

The above Murli point proves that the actual picture of ShivBaba is incorporeal within the corporeal. When Brahma Baba was alive, BKs were in the habit of getting themselves photographed with Brahma Baba or keeping Brahma Baba's photograph to remember ShivBaba. That is why in the above Murli Baba is asking His children that 'Don't you know ShivBaba that you keep (His) pictures?' He is also asking thatWhen Baba is alive, why will children keep pictures? He Baba being alive means the incorporeal Shiv within the corporeal body of Brahma Baba. He is further proving His point by telling that There are aged ones; they forget to remember (Baba), this is why picture is given. This proves that when Brahma Baba was alive, the aged/illiterate BKs used to be given his picture to facilitate remembrance.

Baba has also said in the Murlis elsewhere that children need to meet Baba in corporeal form only once and after that they can go to any part of the world and do service or remember Him. This means that once they have seen the incorporeal within the corporeal they can remember Him anywhere in the world and at any time.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 04 Jan 2009

Thank you ArjunBhai, they are good Murli points.
The more Murli points we have, will help in having a more rounded view of the topic.

Any readers should bear in mind that the words in brackets have been added, which may or may not give a different interpretation of the Murli passage.
Don’t you know ShivBaba, that you keep (His) pictures? Can you remember (Him) by keeping (His) pictures?
Arjun can you confirm whether the words in brackets are added by the BKSWU and are in the revised Murli or are they added by PBKs?
Is it possible to have the full Murli available?

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by arjun » 04 Jan 2009

john wrote:Arjun can you confirm whether the words in brackets are added by the BKSWU and are in the revised Murli or are they added by PBKs?
Is it possible to have the full Murli available?
The words within brackets in the English version of the Murli point have been added by the PBKs for better understanding. But even without these words it means the same.

As regards the full Murli I can upload the scanned Hindi version but it is not possible to translate the entire Murli in English. If anyone has access to English versions of BK Murlis they can try to upload the full English version.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by bansy » 04 Jan 2009

Is it possible to remember only the incorporeal (without the corporeal ) ?

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 04 Jan 2009

bansy wrote:Is it possible to remember only the incorporeal (without the corporeal ) ?
I say yes it is.

Remembrance being the key topic in Murlis is surprisingly vague in how it should be done.
Most Murlis will speak of the importance of remembrance of only one and forgetting all bodily beings, yet it is always cut short of how it's actually done. It's as if the BKs of the day (pre 1969) just new or assumed they knew.
I feel if we can find out what this 'picture of ShivBaba' is in the original post then it will help solve a lot.

Sakar Murli 2008/12/01 Revised
Those who now become the Father's helpers are the ones who will receive the prize of peace and prosperity for half the cycle. Those who remain bodiless and remember the Father, who spin the discus of self-realization, who remember the land of peace, their sweet home and their sweet kingdom and become pure, Baba calls them helpers. It is so easy. I, the soul, am a star. My Father, the Supreme Soul, is also a star. He is not as big as that but how can a star be worshipped? Therefore, they have made Him large so that they can worship Him.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 04 Jan 2009

Dear brother John,

The Murli point "you remember the soul but the body is surely also remembered" or "first you remember the body then the soul inside" are original points from the Murlis that are even quoted here in the forum with dates.

I had found them.

Murli 22-3-99

"A soul cannot be remembered without a body".

"By saying someone's atma the body surely is remembered. As you understand in the body of this Dada ShivBaba comes. It is known in his body is Baba. Body is surely remembered. They ask how we should do Yaad. Should we do Yaad in the body of Brahma or in Paramdham? Many ask. Baba says Yaad to the soul should be done. But surely of the body also Yaad comes. First body then soul. Baba sits in their body so surely Yaad of the body will come."

also this

• “The Father says that – you should not remember any subtle, corporeal or incorporeal picture. You are given a target. Human beings remember (God) with the help of pictures. Baba says – stop seeing pictures now. This (i.e. seeing pictures) is path of worship……So, one should not remember any picture. One should not even remember this picture of Shiv because Shiv is not like this. Just as we souls live in the middle of the bhrikuti (the spot on the forehead between two eyebrows), similarly Baba also says – I take a little space and sit beside this soul. I become a charioteer and give him knowledge. The soul of this one too did not have knowledge. Just as the the charioteer-like soul of this one, speaks through the body, similarly I too speak through these organs. Otherwise, how would I explain?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 25.06.07, pg 2 & 3 published by BKs

It is you only who are trying to mislead people, when stating that first we have to identify the picture of ShivBaba when in the above Murli it is said something else.

I think you are wrongly interprating no bodily being to mean with no body that is not supported by any Murli. Directly or indirecly it is very clear from each Murli that body is needed for the soul and Supreme Soul. No bodily being could mean no conciousness of the body. When we also forget our body we don't really forget it because we see it all the time but with the concousness we don't identify with it, like we don't identify the Chariot with the Supreme Soul inside. You also wrongly interpret the meaning of picture of ShivBaba to mean form of ShivBaba. It is said about the form that is like a start. That is its rup. Nam rup - name form. Closest to image or picture is murti. I also do read Murlis but in Hindi. The first quote i had translated by myself, if you doubt you can ask someone to verify, but i believe it will not be far from the truth. You are evn not inveting any new method. You are just reconfirming the method someone used to invent when Brahma Baba had left the body.

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