Picture Of Shiva Baba

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john
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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 05 Jan 2009

Andrey
Thank you for the Murli points.
As per usual you have misinterpreted what I was saying, but that is what you do best, to me and others, so I'll let you get on with it rather than try and debate with you anymore, I will debate the points with others, but with you there is too much friction and misunderstanding.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 05 Jan 2009

Dear brother,
As you are a free man there is no need to infrom me about your plans. I am sorry for what you say, but i also had passed through some old posts and found some misunderstanding like for eg that you say i don't like the history revealed, i don't strive for truth or stop people from doing this by hammering them. I believe it is something personal between you and me. Hope with time it may get cleared and we will be able to relate in a normal way like real brothers. I appreciate your independent and open approach.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by warrior » 06 Jan 2009

• “The Father says that – you should not remember any subtle, corporeal or incorporeal picture. You are given a target. Human beings remember (God) with the help of pictures. Baba says – stop seeing pictures now. This (i.e. seeing pictures) is path of worship……So, one should not remember any picture. One should not even remember this picture of Shiv because Shiv is not like this. Just as we souls live in the middle of the bhrikuti (the spot on the forehead between two eyebrows), similarly Baba also says – I take a little space and sit beside this soul. I become a charioteer and give him knowledge. The soul of this one too did not have knowledge. Just as the the charioteer-like soul of this one, speaks through the body, similarly I too speak through these organs. Otherwise, how would I explain?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 25.06.07, pg 2 & 3 published by BKs
Andrey this is a very good Murli point, thanks! :D
And how do you practice this journey of remembrance?
Someone question me in this way:

Let say I am in the journey of remembrance... First I see myself as a soul and next I kind of 'think' of Shiva in Virendra Dev Dixit. OK till here is clear. Now, how do you perform the meeting with Shiva in your thoughts? Do you go out there to India and visualise ShivBaba or do you pull ShivBaba with your mind and intellect towards where you are? Because Shiva in not omnipresent so He is not here and there and at the same time you shouldnt feel far from Him - than how do I make this journey unique as per the Murlis?

warrior

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 06 Jan 2009

I remember my times, my experiences with Baba. I also know he is now somewhere. When i have to do somthing or i think something i think what would Baba say or think about it, how would Baba do it.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 07 Jan 2009

Sakar Murli 2002/12/02 Revised
The Father says: Remember Me! He doesn’t say: Also remember this bodily being. The Father is speaking to you personally. He also explained to you in the previous cycle. However, children become very body conscious. You love bodily beings.

The Father says: O souls, you came bodiless and, having played your part, you have now completed your 84 births. Now, I am telling you that you have to return home. Constantly remember Me alone and your sins will be absolved. Your sins won’t be absolved by remembering bodily beings
Still I am interested to find out what is the 'Picture of ShivBaba', despite the hiccups in the thread. If anyone has any Murli points referring to what the picture of ShivBaba is, it would be good to post them.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 08 Jan 2009

With caution I will write. John Bhai may like or not, but there is no reason to comply with his request that i don't post. I would also request that he gives a feedback to whatever i would suggest for the mentioned points.

Just an idea. We are not even sure that here bodily being is referred to Brahma Baba. The meaning could be that you love bodily beings like husband, wife, children. This is even more likely to be, because of the plural form used, bodily beings. Even if in the first case it refers to Brahma baba then we should not remember him, because he is temporary Chariot and incomplete form. Bodily being could also mean a being with body consciouses, like he is shown with clothes like body. The Supreme Soul is also a living being, but without consciousness of the body, so he is not a bodily being. no one is suggesting remembering any bodily being. Just as the practice used to be practiced when the Supreme Soul used to be in the body of Brahma Baba to remember the Supreme Soul in the body, in the same way the practice is practiced now. It has not changed. There is no propaganda for remembering any bodily being. So what are these points to prove? In my opinion John Bhai has some wrong impression on the practice of the PBKs, because these points are not so much connected with the picture of ShivBaba as they are to the discussion about what, whom and how to remember.

There is mention about 1st second and third class Yaad in one VCD. Third class is when we remember God but also others. Second class is when we have only thoughts of knowledge, like subtle stage and first class is when we remember only one like incorporeal stage.

I had also asked br John if he believes that a corporeal body like Chariot is needed for the Supreme Soul to work, or does he believe he does not work or can he work from the Supreme abode, but he has not replied.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 19 Jan 2009

Sakar Murli 2009/01/13 Revised
There is the Trimurti at the top. Brahma is sitting in Yoga.
First of all, you should bring people in front of the picture of Shiv Baba, and then in front of the picture of Lakshmi and Narayan.
Tell them: You ask for peace, but that is only established by the Father every cycle.
Again the picture of Shiva is mentioned, but also this time in the same Murli, the picture of Brahma is mentioned.
Therefore how can this picture of Shiva be of a corporeal being? The Murli is talking of different pictures. So whichever pictures of Shiva the BKs were using at the time, must be the ones mentioned in this Murli, which I believe will be revised from 1965 - 69, the period before Brahma Babas demise.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 20 Jan 2009

Trimurti is at the top of the picture of Lakshmi and Narayan. Brahma is part of the Trimurti. This point does not disprove the collective image of Trimurti as picture of ShivBaba. Anyway this can also be wrong, but it is clear there is some picture of ShivBaba, please, read further.

In the way Brahma is corporeal being in this same manner Shankar can also be in corporeal form. In the Trimurti one is mother (Brahma), one is Father (Shankar). From the mentioned Murli point it becomes clear that the form of Brahma is different from the form or image of ShivBaba, still it is not said like this for Shankar. In the path of Bhakti it is the image of Shankar who is called Shiva, or Shiv-Shankar, whilst there is no worship (except in Ajmer) of Brahma, because it is incomplete form. Anyway there is worship of Jagadamba that is the form of Mother. In the Murli it is said that this Brahma is your Jagadamba. So in the Trimurti Brahma is mother, so who is Father?

It is said that peace is established by the Father, so if there is peacelessnes still the Father is needed to establish peace. Quarrel and fight between brothers will end when they realize they are children of one Father. Firstly after the coming of Father peace needs to be established, that was not done through Brahma, practical heaven did not come, instead Bk family began to disintegrate after his demise. Next it is a matter of practical heaven to last 2500 years that is established by the Father, that no human being can establish. So the presence of the Father is very much needed in practical corporeal form, because we enjoy heaven practically in corporeal form. Yes, it is that he stablishes heaven in our mind, because he is only a soul this Father. So can this happen through study of Murli.

It is a stage of mind this heaven, to go into the self, into the stage of the self. So this Supreme Soul who is in the stage of the self always speaks the Murli through which we get to know his stage. It is said i open gates of heaven through Brahma mother. So to open this age may be one thing, our churning to start, our race to start is one thing and to enter the gate, to enter heaven, to go into the stage of the self, to go to heaven, the churning to end, questions to be answered is something more. So how, through whom and when are these matters to happen. If it were only a matter of our effort over the Murli that mattered then you see there is quarrel and differences. How will this end and how will one opinion prevails.

When there is one knowledge that everyone accept, but it has to be complete. Murlis are not complete. New points are needed to these, new knowledge is needed every now and then till the end. There also need to be one supreme authority of knowledge that to his we bow down. like now i add some point from my own to points i already know. If you manage to persuade me in some points i bow down to you. If one could persuade everyone, if we all bow down to one we could become spiritual mouth-born children of one Father. For this mouth is needed through which to verify, not the paper. We are not paper born. We can verify some points from the Murli, but we cannot verify new points. We can tally our own churning but as you see to one point many interpretations could tally. That is why it is needed one living and practical criterion.

One can say that in the PBK familly there is no heaven so there is no Father. There is another matter. It is not enough that we say this is my Father. It is said that how do we become children. The Father adopts us. So the Father has to adopt us, to say that yes this is my child, it does not suffice that we say "My Baba", he also has to say "My child."

It can be that it is not a matter if a physical, nonliving picture at all. The picture of Brahma may mean a living Brahma. To bring in front of the picture may meant that in the intellect to appear the picture of who is who in living form. Who are the Trimurti, who is Lakshmi and Narayan. The Trimurti and also Lakshmi and Narayan are all in corporeal forms, but when Lakshmi and Narayan are there there is no practical ShivBaba anymore. His task is complete and he must have left for Paramdham already. So they exist in different time. Maybe this is why in the Murli it is said- first, then. First we have to understand where our benefit lies, who is our Father and then, through this we could achieve our aim to become like Lakshmi and Narayan. It is said that the easiest effort is to remember Narayan, because whatever we remember we become the same.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by arjun » 20 Jan 2009

john wrote:Again the picture of Shiva is mentioned
It refers to the picture of Trimurti.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 20 Jan 2009

Sakar Murli 2009/01/13 Revised
Give the full explanation of the picture of Lakshmi and Narayan. There is also the image of Shiv Baba. A very good picture has been made showing His praise.
Again from the same Murli.

Arjun Wrote
It refers to the picture of Trimurti.
Yes there is definitely the picture of Trimurti with an image of the Supreme Soul as a point of light above it, yet I feel the Murli is referring to other pictures as well.
The best way for sure is to know what pictures were around at the time (pre 1969).

Sakar Murli 2008/12/31 Revised
There is now also Prajapita. This can be explained very clearly using the picture of the Trimurti. You definitely need the image of Shiv Baba above the Trimurti. That is the creation of the Subtle Region. Children understand that Vishnu is the sustainer. Prajapita Brahma is the one who establishes. Therefore, his picture is also needed.
Here it explains how the image of Shiva Baba is above the Trimurti, but does not say Trimurti IS the image or picture of Shiva Baba

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 21 Jan 2009

I was thinking that it could be the form of the shivling, because there is such picture with Krishna on one side with his praise and on the other is the image of the shivling with its praise. These pictures are also popular in the path of Bhakti, that is why they may have been used, because people recognize them. This was arround the matter of the God of the Gita. But now I am not very sure if this is the case here. What is interesting for me is that Brahma and Vishnu are mentioned like creation of the Subtle Region, but Shankar is not mentioned. There is also this picture of the Subtle Region with the tree deities one above the other in which Shankar is at the top. Also it is said in the Murli that Subtle Region is created through Brahma, and here it is said that Brahma is creation of the Subtle Region. Can it be that through the same Brahma the Subtle Region is created and he becomes a creation of this same Subtle Region or is there another Prajapita Brahma as mentioned in other thread.

As an aside, John Bhai has said that he has nothing against Baba of the PBKs and the PBKs. I may have mistaken, but to my impression he thinks or tries to prove that the Baba of the PBKs is giving his own interpretations. I believe unlimited meaning is not only a means to give one's own churning. It is mentioned in the Murlis regarding the unlimited matters.

In my opinion Murli points should be tallied with one another. For example at other places it is said that we should not have any picture, Shiva's picture is not like this etc. Like the example of Lakshmi Narayan being fools and being intelligent. This way we can have an overall idea.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 21 Jan 2009

andrey wrote:
As an aside, John Bhai has said that he has nothing against Baba of the PBKs and the PBKs. I may have mistaken, but to my impression he thinks or tries to prove that the Baba of the PBKs is giving his own interpretations.
What I post is from the Murlis, NOT my own work! If you are not happy with what is in the Murli, then what can I say, If it goes against any PBK teaching then what can I say. Are we to be like worshippers and anything Virendra Dev Dixit says is to be bowed down to?

Virendra Dev Dixit does not even answer questions properly, this has been shown by the questions posted on here. He seems to know nothing of the Divine Decrees and as far as I know has chosen to ignore them. To be honest a lot of the questions posted to Virendra Dev Dixit are irrelevant chit chat. Whilst very important questions are avoided. This is my observation, not a criticism.

But before you dive in to start an argument because I know that is what you are always busting to do. I repeat I have nothing against Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs, their efforts are admirable.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 21 Jan 2009

It depends on the way one posts the points, what is his intention behind, what does he tries to prove with them. If you ask me i don't like arguments at all. To me it is you only to start them.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 22 Jan 2009

andrey wrote:It depends on the way one posts the points, what is his intention behind, what does he tries to prove with them.
What is the intention of Murli? It is to reveal the truth.
If a Murli point shows you to be wrong, then that is Shiva Babas knowledge and it shows you are going against it.
If I say, this is my opinion, but it is not in Murli, then that is a different matter, it is just my opinion.
If it is in Murli , but you argue against it and say don't post such things,then I am sorry I will continue to post the knowledge of Shiva Baba whether you like it or not.
If someone says I am misleading by posting Murli points and they are a follower of Shiva Baba, then what can be said of them?
Shiva Baba is responsible for Murli and what it contains, not I.

If any PBK is able to bring out Murli points to prove advance knowledge then that is an opportunity made, but you should not expect others to be weak in knowledge. The truth will out in the end so it is an opportunity, is it not?
Rather than get upset it is better to make more effort and study harder and post good Murli points.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 22 Jan 2009

No, no, no brother, see, it is a matter of the intention you put whilst quoting the Murli. Why do you take such part instead of other part etc. There is definetely intention behind. You know there are many such speculation, that if you take the Murli literary, out of the context, with different intention, one can very well prove that Murli is rasistic, destructive etc.

Why would you stop quoting Murlis. I am very happy to all these points. You see i even try to give explanations to them because i see it as a challenge and training, but sometimes I am unable to find the meaning, If there is time and opportunity i would be also very happy to know the interpretations of Baba of all these point. Since it is an open space anyone can also give his own interpretation. I would be also very happy if i had the time an opportunity to study intensely the Murlis, that this is my shortcoming. Due to various reasons i find less time for this that i would like to. Anyway the little time i devote to this study i study the advanced knowledge because it is enough to my satisfaction even few minutes.

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