Picture Of Shiva Baba

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john
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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 22 Jan 2009

andrey wrote:No, no, no Brother, see, it is a matter of the intention you put whilst quoting the Murli.
My intention is the same as the Murli intention.
andrey wrote:]You know there are many such speculation, that if you take the Murli literary, out of the context, with different intention, one can very well prove that Murli is rasistic, destructive etc.
With every Murli quote I put the date of the Murli, that way anyone, even you can check the context of the Murli quote.
andrey wrote:] I would be also very happy if i had the time an opportunity to study intensely the Murlis, that this is my shortcoming. Due to various reasons i find less time for this that i would like to.
Sakar Murli 2002/12/01 Revised
You have to pay full attention to the study. Otherwise Maya will distress you a great deal.
I don't have the date for the next Murli quote, it is in the Encyclopedia section of this site.
You students know who is teaching you. There is His picture too. Everything depends on the study. You will become the masters of heaven, but your status depends on your study.
Sakar Murli 2008/09/01 Revised
It is only the one Father whom you can remember in any form. Your intellect goes up above to the Incorporeal One. He is not a subtle or corporeal being.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by shivshankar » 23 Jan 2009

I think we can put a huge final dot under previous post. There is nothing to discuss. PBKs have different view on God's knowledge. If somebody wants to realize original reality, he will keep his mind open. As BKs so PBKs are some kind of religions with limitations which all religions have. One who has good intellect will select logical information from dogmatic from these religions.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 04 Feb 2009

IN VCD 688, Baba clarifies Murli from 27.9.67 where it is said that in the picture of the Trimurti, the picture of ShivBaba has been removed. If you say that picture of ShivBaba is the point of light then this point if light is there in the picture of the Trimurti. You can also say that Shankar that is the practical form of ShivBaba is also there, so why is he removed. It is removed because the personality is not this. On the Trimurti picture it is shown Brahma in all the three places, just without mustache. That is why in other Murli it is said that the pirture of the Trimurti is not accurate and we should issue the accurate picture of the Trimurti.

John said:
My intention is the same as the Murli intention.
I don't agree. It is said that this knowledge can be nectar or poison, can give happiness or sorrow depending on the way we use it. I don't say you use it badly, but you as anyone else has your own, subjective position. It is even good to know ones own position. If you don't realize yourself as separate individual with unique position and are thinking you are one and the same with the Murli then I may assure you you are in deep illusion, otherwise you could call yourself the Supreme Soul. I also don't say you quote out of context, but if you use points to disprove the advance Gyan I doubt this has been the initial agenda of the Murli.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 04 Feb 2009

In VCD* 686, Baba clarifies Murli from 27.9.67 where it is said that in the picture of the Trimurti, the picture of ShivBaba has been removed. If you say that picture of ShivBaba is the point of light then this point if light is there in the picture of the Trimurti. You can also say that Shankar that is the practical form of ShivBaba is also there, so why is he removed. It is removed because the personality is not this. On the Trimurti picture it is shown Brahma in all the three places, just without mustache. That is why in other Murli it is said that the picture of the Trimurti is not accurate and we should issue the accurate picture of the Trimurti.

John said:
My intention is the same as the Murli intention.
I don't agree. It is said that this knowledge can be nectar or poison, can give happiness or sorrow depending on the way we use it. I don't say you use it badly, but you as anyone else has your own, subjective position. It is even good to know ones own position. If you don't realize yourself as separate individual with unique position and are thinking you are one and the same with the Murli then I may assure you you are in deep illusion, otherwise you could call yourself the Supreme Soul. I also don't say you quote out of context, but if you use points to disprove the advance Gyan I doubt this has been the initial agenda of the Murli.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 06 Feb 2009

andrey wrote: I don't agree. It is said that this knowledge can be nectar or poison, can give happiness or sorrow depending on the way we use it.
What makes you think you are not using Gyan poisonously?
Some might say you are, yet to you everything you say is right, even when proved wrong, might I add :D
Have you seen the thread on 'the clearest points to remembrance' yet?
but if you use points to disprove the advance Gyan I doubt this has been the initial agenda of the Murli.
That is just your opinion, because you maybe fear you could be wrong....

Actually it is you saying the interpretation of Murli is wrong by BKs, yet when someone says it to you, it is not acceptable.
Is that irony or hypocrisy?

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 07 Feb 2009

Dear brother john,

Surely the knowledge I give is poisonous for I have poisonous/vicious intellect. That is why only the knowledge of the ever pure Supreme Soul is called nectar. Depending on our own intellect we will catch the knowledge in one or another way. For example you say elsewhere that In the Murli it is said that this is the family path, we have to stay pure whilst in the family so it is right to marry, this is one interpretation, and this is your interpretation, another is that this is unlimited spiritual family where there is spiritual mother and Father that is another interpretation. There is a difference from to support an interpretation or to give an interpretation. If for you there is no practical ShivBaba through whom we can verify how it is the correct interpretation then you could lie to anyone that, the interpretation I say is the correct since there is no way to check.

There is a difference from to use the points according to or in the context of the philosophy, to use your own intellect to understand better this philosophy and tally each point with the main points. Other is that there is no common, whole philosophy but just selectional understanding that is used either for mere opportunism or for proving oneself an outstanding Murli researcher.

I have seen the clearest Murli point, as you have termed it. According to you this proves very clearly that we should remember the Supreme Soul in Paramdham and not in the body, but there is also equally clear Murli point to say the opposite. If it was as simple as one sentence why there would be spoken so many sentences on this subject.

The BK and the PBKs philosophy is a whole concrete philosophy with its main pillars and points, that is structurized in such a way so that everything falls on its place. If we take out something, saying that everything is OK, but this one thing is false then everything falls apart.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 07 Feb 2009

andrey wrote: For example you say elsewhere that In the Murli it is said that this is the family path, we have to stay pure whilst in the family so it is right to marry, this is one interpretation, and this is your interpretation, another is that this is unlimited spiritual family where there is spiritual mother and Father that is another interpretation.
Actually I did not say it was right to marry, I said it was wrong to split up families. Over whether it is right to marry or not I have made no comment. All I say is that it is not banned. Actually there are Murli points about marriage, maybe you should study Murlis more?
It says in Murli, that couples can show the world by staying pure.
What is against Shrimat is impurity in Marriage. achaa, please read Murlis more.

Andrey Wrote:
I have seen the clearest Murli point, as you have termed it. According to you this proves very clearly that we should remember the Supreme Soul in Paramdham and not in the body, but there is also equally clear Murli point to say the opposite.
Actually I don't think there are 'clear' Murli points to say the opposite.
Andrey Wrote:
There is a difference from to support an interpretation or to give an interpretation. If for you there is no practical ShivBaba through whom we can verify how it is the correct interpretation then you could lie to anyone that, the interpretation I say is the correct since there is no way to check.
I don't say my interpretation is correct, I just post what I see in Murli, with very little comment from myself.
The problem is for you, is that I post good Murli points, otherwise why would you get upset and try and stop me?
OK, brother you need to read Murlis more, otherwise how will anything I post make sense to you?

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 08 Feb 2009

Murli 22-3-99

"A soul cannot be remembered without a body".

"By saying someone's atma the body surely is remembered. As you understand in the body of this Dada ShivBaba comes. It is known in his body is Baba. Body is surely remembered. They ask how we should do Yaad. Should we do Yaad in the body of Brahma or in Paramdham? Many ask. Baba says Yaad to the soul should be done. But surely of the body also Yaad comes. First body then soul. Baba sits in their body so surely Yaad of the body will come."

It is only my translation, which may be far from good, but i believe i had caught the meaning and it seems pretty clear.


Dear brother,

I post these points only due to your request and i would not like it to be like shooring one another with points. I don't have any problems with any points you post. You say you post good points means there are bad points also. For me any point of the Murli is the words of Supreme Soul, it appeals to me and i believe it can generate churning and dicussion. If for you this discussions or churnings i share are not appealing then is this the point of the forum. We are to discuss the points and not just to quote them. The problem comes that in one and the same point two people read two different things. This is even not problem, but something normal, so i believe that discussion could remain as usual. You have had some wrong impression i try to stop you, there is no such thing. In fact you had tried to stop my replies several times by asking me directly, but I am not convinced why to fulfill such request. It is free forum, whether you like or not any responses, you like responses of some more then of other or participation of some more than of others you have no right to moderate the participation of others. So, i would like to ask you that we keep matters to the point.
achaa, please read Murlis more.

OK, Brother you need to read Murlis more, otherwise how will anything I post make sense to you?
If by reading the Murlis you start becoming more like senior teacher i may ask you to reconsider if studying of Murlis is beneficial to you. I should tell you that i have a teacher who inspires me to study and it is in vain for you to give me advices.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 08 Feb 2009

andrey wrote: So, i would like to ask you that we keep matters to the point.
Hahahahaha really Andrey now you take the biscuit by YOU saying that :laugh:
If by reading the Murlis you start becoming more like senior teacher i may ask you to reconsider if studying of Murlis is beneficial to you. I should tell you that i have a teacher who inspires me to study and it is in vain for you to give me advices.
So really you are saying, for you, reading Murli is a waste of time, OK , that is your choice.
You say you post good points means there are bad points also.
By Good Murli points I meant appropriate to the thread.
I notice your language is becoming more emotive and accusative, rather than discuss the Murli points and 'stick to the point' as you rightly say, you are using language to try and discredit the other. Is that not a tactic used by some BKs who just try and discredit this forum?
I post these points only due to your request and i would not like it to be like shooring one another with points.
I am very happy for you to post Murli points, in my opinion it is the best way. The Murli points I post are with the Sakar Murli date and are available in another section of this website , where all can read and decide for themselves. You can check for yourself and see whether I am taking them out of context, as you try and imply I am doing.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 08 Feb 2009

Where have i said reading Murli is a waste of time? I have said that for you if you study and from this it becomes that you become a senior teacher, is it good. For example some don't like the Murli so where is the need for them to read or ask them to study. This is not said for me. What i was pointing was that what i study or not, how and how much, you neither know, nor you should be concerned. You should be busy with benefiting yourslef as much as you can, don't look at others and everything else will be OK.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 09 Feb 2009

andrey wrote:Where have i said reading Murli is a waste of time? I have said that for you if you study and from this it becomes that you become a senior teacher, is it good.
Yes this is very good, thank you for the compliment, but, really it is the Murli, all I do is present it.
If I was a senior teacher then I would get a very high position, how do I know? It says so in Murli.
For example some don't like the Murli so where is the need for them to read or ask them to study.
There are many many Murli points on the importance of study, I will post more and eventually, the penny will drop for you.
I will post them in the importance of study thread, so we can keep this thread on topic.
You should be busy with benefiting yourslef as much as you can, don't look at others and everything else will be OK.
In Murli it says we should benefit others. To benefit others is to benefit oneself. It is all in the Murli, please look.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 09 Feb 2009

Dear brother,
What does it mean the penny will drop for me. Please, calrify.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 22 Feb 2009

Dear brother,

I guess the penny will drop for someone means one will realize. So i will realize the importance of study means i don't know it. I liked to tell you that i know it very well. There are even Murli points and i can read them by myself. Whatever you post or not, please don't do it for me solely, there is no need to inform me about your plans.

If you think the aim of our study is to become senior i believe this is whatever we are criticizing others for. I believe it is for becoming independent and keeping others independent or of rather becoming a servant of others. And since we are having the most obedient servand in the form of God, we don't need any service from others.

Even if you don't give interpretations on the point you quote the quote you choose speaks for itself and reveals your intention. You say you do this for the benefit, but what is benefit and what is loss. Because Murli is vast many points can be proved from the same Murli. It can be used in good and bad way both. If your intention is to prove the benefit of a point of light only it clashes with our understanding of benefit. It is entirely a different think if you are sincerely looking for answer for yourself. In such quest opposing or agreeing with one another is only struggle of our own understanding, because we are neither 100 right nor wrong and the final truth is somewhere outside both of us.

You have posted a very interesting point that if we remember ShivBaba we will also remember Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar. What kind of churning does this provoke in you. Please, share if you feel like. To me it is not yet clear what does it mean, but maybe something like that if we like to know ShivBaba we should know who are Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by john » 25 Feb 2009

andrey wrote:
Even if you don't give interpretations on the point you quote the quote you choose speaks for itself
Yes it does, that's why I post them!
Glad you now agree.
You say you do this for the benefit, but what is benefit and what is loss. Because Murli is vast many points can be proved from the same Murli.
benefit is in understanding the truth of the Murli. Actually Murlis available aren't that vast and the points I post are mentioned very regularly in Murli, it's not like I am finding obscure points.
It can be used in good and bad way both. If your intention is to prove the benefit of a point of light only it clashes with our understanding of benefit.
Actually it's PBKs posting points to clash with the BKs understanding. I am just redressing the balance putting some common sense back into the equation.
we don't need any service from others
In that case, there is no point reading or replying to my posts, you are free not to.
So why are you on the forum?
Anyone posting any Murli points or making any discussion about it , you can then call that doing service by your definition. You yourself have even posted Murli points.
It is entirely a different think if you are sincerely looking for answer for yourself.
And the reason you make posts is?
If it's just for ourselves then a forum is not really the place because it can be read by the whole world.

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Re: Picture Of Shiva Baba

Post by andrey » 03 Mar 2009

I mean, the points you post it speaks for itself the points that you choose, you choose certain points, certain points make difference to you, that speaks for you, your intention, your understanding.

You are trying to make our of it that i have problems with you posting points. If we have desire to serve through posting points this is service. If we are discussing it can also be service and it can also be disservice. Discussion is good service for both when the intention is good, two are together inspiring one another. Bad discussion is based on our ego that now you listen to me as i tell you. Bad discussion is like trying to convince with force and at all costs, that make the means bad. Is it not said that if someone does not like to listen or does not understand we should leave him immediately and not lose our time. Still if we are discussing may mean there is benefit for both. In trying to present ones own ideas one becomes more clear. We always have our own ideas, it depends on what they are based and in which direction they go. Otherwise we could just tell, everything is written in the Murli, read, whilst it is in fact so, still discussion is not unnecessary as it provokes our enthusiasm and churning power etc.

Our posts can be read by the whole world still we can feel in solitude whilst in public. There is difference form searching to having found. One can support some philosophy, or one can search for some philosophy.

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