Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

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Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by john » 07 Jan 2009

Sakar Murli 2002/12/01 Revised
The Father is now personally explaining to you children. I have come once again to teach you Raja Yoga. I have entered Krishna at the end of his 84th birth and named him Brahma. I definitely need Brahma and also Prajapita Brahma whom I can enter and come here. How else could I come here? This is the Chariot that is fixed for Me. I enter him every cycle. It is written that establishment takes place through Brahma. Of what? Of the land of Vishnu. You are now making Bharat into the land of Vishnu.
Here the Murli reads as though Brahma and Prajapita Brahma are two.
Is this a typo error in the Murli or are there other Murli points of Brahma and Prajapita Brahma being different parts?

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by mbbhat » 08 Jan 2009

john wrote: I definitely need Brahma and also Prajapita Brahma whom I can enter and come here.
1)There are two stages of Brahma, pure(Avyakt Brahma) and impure(Prajapita Brahma). When Shiva descended he initially took support of Bhakti(known or available things). People in the world(at least India) consider Brahma to be in sookshmvatan. Hence Baba initially said Brahma is one of the trimurtis and resides in Subtle Region.
Later Baba clarified that the same vyakt Brahma becomes Avyakt.

2)I think there is a little error in translation in the sentence , "I definitely need Brahma and also Prajapita Brahma whom I can enter and come here". The actual translation should be “ I definitely need Brahma, that too Prajapita Brahma (not Avyakt Brahma) whom I can enter and come here.

So ShivBaba wanted to bring down the concentration of the children from Subtle Region(like trans, visions etc) into the corporeal world and the media so that his teaching could be effective

The word ‘bhi= bhee’ in Hindi can mean ALSO or THAT TOO according to the context in the sentence.

3)

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by arjun » 08 Jan 2009

Quoted from the BK Section:
Murli Pt.No.19

"Tum bachhon ko paigaam bhi sabko dena hai. Aeroplane say bhi parchey giraaney liye koshish karni chaahiye. Usmay likho ShivBaba aisey kahtey hain. Brahma bhi ShivBaba ka bachha hai. Prajapita hai toh vah bhi baap, yah bhi baap. ShivBaba kahney say bhi bahut bachhon ko prem kay aansoo aa jaatey hain. Kabhi dekha nahi hai. Likhtey hain Baba kab aakar aapsey milengey, Baba bandhan say chudaao." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 21.7.05, page 4)
"You children must give the message to everyone. Efforts must also be made to drop pamphlets from the aeroplane. Write in it that ShivBaba says like this. Brahma is also a child of ShivBaba. Prajapita - He is also Father, this (Brahma) is also Father. Tears of love roll down the eyes of many children even if they just utter ShivBaba. They have never seen (Baba). They write, 'Baba, when will we come and meet you? Baba, please liberate us from bondages.' " (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.07.05, page 4 published by BKs)

- Baba is sitting in the body of Brahma and telling that "Prajapita - He is also Father, this (Brahma) is also Father." When ShivBaba is sitting in the body of Brahma, then why is he calling Prajapita as "that Father"? Are Brahma and Prajapita different?

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by mbbhat » 17 Jan 2009

arjun wrote: Brahma bhi ShivBaba ka bachha hai. Prajapita hai toh vah bhi baap, yah bhi baap.
Brahma is also a child of ShivBaba. Prajapita - He is also Father, this (Brahma) is also Father. - Baba is sitting in the body of Brahma and telling that "Prajapita - He is also Father, this (Brahma) is also Father." When ShivBaba is sitting in the body of Brahma, then why is he calling Prajapita as "that Father"? Are Brahma and Prajapita different? [/color]
Dear Arjun soul,
In many Murlis ShivBaba uses the words I, he, that for self. When a mother teaches her small children she sometime uses the phrase "Mother came" insetad of "I came". Similarly Baba uses all the different ways to teach children. If you see the above Murli point there is the word 'also'. It can also mean Brahma is both Father and child. He is Father of all the souls(jeevaatmas) and child of ShivBaba. It also indicates that Brahma is next to Shiva.
Another important thing is sometimes it is difficult to say where the full stop is. The above point can be written as "Brahma bhi ShivBaba ka bachha hai, Prajapita hai. Toh vah bhi baap, yah bhi baap". Then the meaning would be "Brahma is also child of ShivBaba, Prajapita(meaning Brahma = Prajapita). He(Shiva) is also Father, this(Brahma) is also Father.
Nowhere it is mentioned 'Brahma is child of Prajapita'.
See the following Murli point:- (SM 29-12-08)
“Kaheen bhee tum jaate ho to pahle2 tum apnaa parichay do hum apne ko brahma kumar kumariyaan kyon kahlaate hain? Brahma hai Prajapita, Shiv kaa bachchaa. Oonch te oonch us(that) niraakar ko kahaa jaataa hai. Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar to unke bachche hain. Vishnu aur Shankar ko KABHEE Prajapita naheen kahenge. Prajapita Brahma yahaan hai. Dekho yah point achchee tarah dhaaran karo. Lakshmi Narayan, Radhakrishn ko Prajapita naheen kahenge. Prajapita Brahma naam mash_hur hai. Yah hai Prajapita Sakar. Ab swarg kaa rachaita to Parampita Paramatma Shiv hai. Swarg kaa rachaita Brahma naheen hai. Nirakar paramatmaa hee aakar Prajapita Brahma dwaaraa swarg rachte hain...
Wherever you go, first of all, give your introduction and say why you call yourselves Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris. Brahma is Prajapita, a child of Shiva. That incorporeal One is called the Highest on High. Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar are His children. Vishnu and Shankar can never be called Prajapita. Prajapita Brahma exists here. Look, you have to imbibe this point very well. Lakshmi and Narayan and Radhe and Krishna cannot be called Prajapita. The name 'Prajapita Brahma' is very well known. This Prajapita is corporeal. The Creator of heaven is the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, Shiva. Brahma is not the Creator of heaven. Only the incorporeal Supreme Soul comes and creates heaven through Prajapita Brahma. There are so many of us, his children. Souls are, the children of the Supreme Father, Shiva. A very good method of explaining is required. Tell them: He is teaching us Raja Yoga. He is explaining to us the secrets of the beginning, the middle and the. end of the world through Brahma. Therefore, this Brahma hears it first- [SM 29-12-08]
See the incorporeal soul Shiva sitting in body of Brahma speaking 'That incorporeal one is highest on High'. Does that mean there are two incorporeals who are highest on high or there is another soul that is greater than the soul who is speaking through the body of Brahma?
Baba here stresses two points- Prajapita should be in Sakar and Radha Krishna, Lakshmi Narayan cannot be called as Prajapita. So Baba wants to say that pure bodies cannot be that of Prajapita. Baba comes in impure world and impure body. If the contrast is just between Dada Lekhraj and Virendra Dev Dixit(sorry, I am moving ahead), then why should Baba mention Radha Krishna?
In the above Murli point it is clearly said the two (Vishnu and Shankar) of the trimurtis are not Prajapita. So does not this gives indication that the other(Brahma) of the trimurtis is Prajapita? Does not this imply (or a high probability is there) the same Prajapita will become subtle Brahma?

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by john » 20 Jan 2009

Sakar Murli 2008/12/25 Revised
Just as there is this Prajapita Brahma who establishes the deity religion standing at the top of the tree, in the same way, Christ is also the Prajapita the Father of the people of the Christian religion. Just as this one is Prajapita Brahma, so there is Prajapita Christ and Prajapita Buddha. All of them are those who establish religions. Even Shankaracharya of the sannyasis would be called a Father. They call them gurus. They would say that their guru was Shankaracharya. So, the one who is standing at the beginning of the branch will come at the end having taken rebirth. Now all are in the tamopradhan stage. They will also come and understand. They will definitely come to salute the Father at the end.
How will all these Religious Prajapitas come and salute the Father at the end when Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) is not here?

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by mbbhat » 23 Jan 2009

john wrote:How will all these Religious Prajapitas come and salute the Father at the end when Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) is not here?
That is just by saakshaatkaar(vision). I have already metioned a Murli point stating that "you get vision of Brahma. Even in the end people will get vision of Brahma. If you go to these BKs, you will become prince like Krishna, etc etc". Physical presence in not a necessity. Just see:- God is invisible. But all will salute him in the end. How? Through Brahma. Similarly saluting to BKKs (Realizing BKs) is as good as saluting to Prajapita (and also ShivBaba). Realizing body (as mortal, liveless) is as good as realizing soul. Realizing any one thing properly(to the full extent of truth) is as good as realizing everything. I would like to say something more about two stages of Brahma.

In a process there is transformation of raw materials into the product. Less intellectual people will not have clear knowledge about the raw materials and the process. They just know about the final output. Take an example of a computer. Only the manufacturer has the details from beginning to end. Most of the people just know about the computer. They do not know about either the raw materials or the manufacturing process.

In this case, the raw material is impure Brahma or Prajapita Brahma. The same Brahma becomes Avyakt Brahma after the process of purification.

A manufacturer has a vision of his product even before the process. He knows how the final product should be. [Of course may not be in case of experimenting. World Drama is real. Hence there is no experimenting]. So the creator ShivBaba has the vision (knowledge) of Complete (pure= Avyakt) Brahma. But BKs are Master Creators. So Baba has to give full knowledge of the process of creation.

At the end of Kalpa the souls will get vision of Avyakt Brahma. Bhakti Marg is yaadgaar(memory) of gyaanmaarg. Ant mati so gati. So in Bhaktimarg, people will think (consider) Brahma as the one having subtle body and hence consider him at BrahmaLok separate from the physical world. Even children just before getting knowledge will have idea about Avyakt Brahma. So Baba starts giving knowledge using the support of Bhakti (known to unknown method of teaching).

One should have knowledge of both the destination and the starting place before beginning of the journey. Then only he will be able to move towards the goal with highest efficiency. So Baba mentions both the stages of Brahma. But TO STRESS HIS INCARNATION Baba clarifies that I need a corporeal body that too impure body because process of creation begins in impure world. See the following Murli points.


1)Baap hee khud aakar samjhate hain main saadhaaran boodhe tan may pravesh kartaa hun. Naheen to Brahma aayegaa kahaan se. Patit tan hee chaahiye. Sookshmvatan may viraajmaan hokar to Brahma naheen rachenge. Kahte hain main patit shareer patit duniyaa may aataa hun. Gaayaa bhee hai Brahma dwaaraa sthaapanaa. Phir jiskee sthaapnaa karte hain, jo vah gyaan paate hain vah devtaa ban jaate hain. Manushy Brahma ke chitr dekhkar MOONJH JAATE HAIN. Kahte hain ‘yah to Dada kaa chitr hai’. Prajapita to zaroor yahaan hee hogaa. Sookshmvatan may kaise prajaa rachenge. Prajapita ke bachche hazaaron Brahmakumar kumaariyaan hain. Jhooth thode he hogaa. Hum ShivBaba dwaaraa varsaa paa rahe hain. Tum bachchon ko samjhaayaa hai Vah Avyakt Brahma hai. Prajapita to Sakar may chaahiye. Patit hee so paavan bante hain. TATVAM. [SM-13-7-86(3)]

Father himself comes and teaches, “I enter in ordinary old body”. Else from where Brahma comes? IMPURE body is needed. Brahma will not create in sitting in Subtle Region. (I am saying) I come in impure body impure world. There is saying creation through Brahma. Then who receives the knowledge become deity. People get confused by seeing the picture of Brahma. They say ‘This is picture of Dada’. Prajapita would be here itself. How creation can be done is Subtle Region. There are thousands of Brahmakumar kumaris who are children of Prajapita. It can’t be lie. We are getting property through ShivBaba. It is taught/informed to you that ‘that is Avyakt Brahma’. Prajapita is needed in corporeal. The impure one becomes pavan. TATWAM(This is that= Both are same). [SM-13-7-86(3)]

Brahma hai Prajapita[SM 15-3-78(3)]= Brahma is Prajapita

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by shivshankar » 23 Jan 2009

john wrote:How will all these Religious Prajapitas come and salute the Father at the end when Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) is not here?
By their legs. Personally. God is God. It doesn't matter what Chariot He enters indeed. This Chariot is predestined like all this cycle.

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by arjun » 24 Jan 2009

john wrote:How will all these Religious Prajapitas come and salute the Father at the end when Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) is not here?
As per the advanced knowledge, three souls are involved in the establishment of each religion. The seed, i.e. a PBK, the base, i.e. a BK and the soul of the religious Father which comes from the Soul World. During the Confluence Age, the see-form of every religion will come and salute the Father in the end, but the BK and non-BK soul involved in the establishment of every religion will not come and salute physically. If the soul of the religious Father that descends from above salutes ShivBaba physically or even if it comes face to face with Baba in the Copper Age, it will have to come in the heaven, while actually it does not.

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by shivshankar » 24 Jan 2009

arjun wrote: If the soul of the religious Father that descends from above salutes ShivBaba physically or even if it comes face to face with Baba in the Copper Age, it will have to come in the heaven, while actually it does not.
IMHO soul of the religious Fathers may salute ShivBaba physically. It doesn't mean, that they will have to come in the heaven. To solute doesn't mean to accept knowledge. It means only respect, not full recognition.

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by mbbhat » 10 Aug 2012

john wrote: The Father is now personally explaining to you children. I have come once again to teach you Raja Yoga. I have entered Krishna at the end of his 84th birth and named him Brahma.I definitely need Brahma and also Prajapita Brahma whom I can enter and come here. How else could I come here? This is the Chariot that is fixed for Me. I enter him every cycle. It is written that establishment takes place through Brahma. Of what? Of the land of Vishnu. You are now making Bharat into the land of Vishnu.

Here the Murli reads as though Brahma and Prajapita Brahma are two.

Is this a type error in the Murli or are there other Murli points of Brahma and Prajapita Brahma being different parts?
Recently I got this. There is both typing error by BKs and translational error by PBKs. The sentence marked bold is not one sentence. It is two.
-----------
The previous and right version of Murli point is this:-

SM 18-11-77(3):- Krishn ne 84 janm liye. Unkey hee antim janm may maine pravesh kiyaa hai. Inkaa naam Brahma rakhaa hai. MUJHE BRAAHMAN ZAROOR CHAHIYE. TO PRAJAPITA BRAHMA BHI CHAHIYE NA. Unmey aakar pravesh kartaa hun. - 118

= Krishna took 84 births. I have entered Krishna at the end of his 84th birth. His name is kept as Brahma. I definietly need braahmins. So- Prajapita brahma is also needed, is it not? I come and enter in that.

After the typing error by BKs, the Murli point is like this:-

SM 21-10-82(3):- Main fir se aayaa hun tumko Rajayog sikhlaaney. KRISHN KE 84 JANMON KE ANTH MAY MAINE PRAVESH KIYAA HAI. Inkaa naam Brahma rakhaa hai. MUJHE BRAAHMA ZAROOR CHAHIYE. TO PRAJAPITA BRAHMA BHI CHAHIYE jismey pravesh karke aavoon. Nahin to kaise aavoon? Yah meraa rath mukrar hai. Kalp2 ismey hi aataa hun. Likhaa bhi huvaa hai brahma dwaaraa sthapnaa. -21 [Prajapita, Murli cut, rath]

= I have come once again to teach you Raja Yoga. I have entered Krishna at the end of his 84th birth. His name is kept as Brahma. I definitely need Brahma. So Prajapita Brahma is also needed (= is a necessity) whom I can enter and come here. How else could I come here? This is the Chariot that is fixed for Me. I enter him every cycle.
----------
Now, even after typing error, if one translates properly, it would be like this.

I definitely need Brahma (body). So Prajapita Brahma (impure body) is also necessary in whom I can enter and come.

Or- similar to -

I definitely need food. So/hence right food is also a necessity.

But PBKs might have added the word "and" purposefully to suit their needs. (or whether it is also done by BKWSU in their English Murlis, not sure].
---------
Actually, anyone can guess the transnational error there. As in the next sentence, it is clearly said- "How else could I come here?". If the two personalities are different, why should Baba say "how else could I come?

This shows immaturity of PBKs in understanding or studying the Murli points. Many such examples clearly show that almost none of the PBKs neither have capacity to do individual churning nor to point even silly mistakes. They just follow blindly what is given to them.

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by rmn » 10 Aug 2012

My dear shivasena brother soul,
Please come on this subject and discuss on this subject with respect to Murli points.
why are you silent nowadays?
thanks

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by shivsena » 10 Aug 2012

rmn wrote:My dear shivasena Brother soul,
Please come on this subject and discuss on this subject with respect to Murli points.
why are you silent nowadays?.
thanks
Dear rmn Bhai.

I am tired of discussing the Godly knowledge for last 5 years on the forum and hence i have gone in silent mode.
It has been said in Vani : "Anth mein silence ki, science par jeet hogi"..so nowadays i am trying to remain more in silence and churn the Gyan.
Whatever i wish to say i am posting on the ex-pbk forum.

shivsena.

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by rmn » 10 Aug 2012

My dear shivasena soul brother, thank very much for response,
For the last five yers u r on thd discussions OK good , for new commers who are searching for truth,u r experiences and discussed points are very much needed for easy understanding. Pl atleast once in a day u should be on discussion forum on Murli points.
thank

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by arjun » 11 Aug 2012

mbbhat wrote:If the two personalities are different and Baba enters in both, then why should Baba say "how else could i come here? and "this is fixed one"?
"अब बाप तुम बच्चों को सम्मुख समझा रहे हैं, मैं फिर से आया हूँ तुमको राजयोग सिखलाने। कृष्ण के ८४ जन्मों के अन्त में मैंने प्रवेश किया है, इनका नाम ब्रह्मा रखा है। मुझे ब्रह्मा जरूर चाहिए तो प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा भी चाहिए। जिसमें प्रवेश करके आऊं, नहीं तो कैसे आऊं? यह मेरा रथ मुकरर है। कल्प-कल्प इसमें ही आता हूँ। लिखा भी हुआ है ब्रह्मा द्वारा स्थापना। किसकी? विष्णुपुरी की।" (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २८.१२.०७, पृ.३)

“Now the Father is explaining to you children face to face that I have come once again to teach you rajyog. I have entered at the end of the 84 births of Krishna. I have named this one as Brahma. I certainly require Brahma as well as Prajapita Brahma, in whom I could enter and come. Otherwise, how would I come? This Chariot of mine is the appointed one. I come only in this every Kalpa. It has also been written that establishment takes place through Brahma. Of what? Of the abode of Vishnu.(Revised Sakar Murli dated 28.12.07, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Brahma and Prajapita Brahma the same?

Post by mbbhat » 11 Aug 2012

arjun wrote: (Revised Sakar Murli dated 28.12.07, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi,
I have already said- that there had been typing mistake by BKs. The same thing is repeating there. they have not noticed it. Because since that is not going to affect them, since their belief is as according to the original one.

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