Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

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bansy
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Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

Post by bansy » 27 Apr 2009

(Apologies for this is rather a long post but it builds up towards the end. Thanks for your patience. )

In Murlis, why does God refer to himself in 3rd party pronoun. Why do Murlis use the term BapDada, or Father, or ShivBaba instead of using "me" or "I".

The Murlis are spoken live in front of the children. Therefore there is an immediate relationship connection at the point in time. So the only pronouns needed are I(God) and you (us,, the children), or Me (God) and you (us,, the children).

For example, whilst you are reading this post say on Skype or MSN chat
Then I am thinking
"I am writing this email to you who is reading it whilst I type."
I do not write
"Bansy is writing this email to you who is reading it whilst Bansy types." :?:
Nor do I write
"She is writing this email to you who is reading it whilst She types." :?:

EXAMPLE
Let's take an extract from the first AM of the 2008/9 season :
Today, BapDada is seeing His jewels of contentment who always remain content. Such a beautiful sparkle is sparkling everywhere through the sparkle of each and every jewel of contentment. Each jewel of contentment is loved so much by the Father, loved by everyone and also loved by the self. Everyone loves contentment. Contentment is always full of all attainments because where there is contentment there is nothing unattained. A contented soul has the natural nature of contentment. The power of contentment easily and naturally spreads contentment into the atmosphere everywhere. The face and eyes of such a soul spread the wave of contentment into the atmosphere. Where there is contentment other specialties automatically come. Contentment is the special gift from the Father at the Confluence Age. The stage of contentment is always victorious on an external stage. External situations continue to change but the power of contentment constantly keeps increasing. No matter how many external situations come in front of you, at every moment nature is seen to be like a puppet show in front of a jewel of contentment. They are puppet shows of Maya and nature. Therefore, contented souls never become distressed. The show of external situations is experienced to be like entertainment. In order to experience this entertainment, the seat of your stage should always be that of a detached observer; this will give you the experience of entertainment. No matter how much the scene changes, a contented soul who is stable on the seat of a detached observer is able to change every external situation with the stage of the self by being a detached observer. So, each one of you has to check yourself: Am I always content? Always? Are you always content or only sometimes?

For every power, for happiness and for you to become double-light and fly, BapDada always tells the children: Always remember the word "sada" (always). The word "sometimes" doesn't exist in the dictionary of Brahmin life because contentment means all attainment. Where there is all attainment, the word "sometimes" doesn't exist. So, are you those who always have an experience or are you still making effort? Has each of you asked yourself? Have you checked yourself? Because all of you are the specially beloved, sweet, lovely and co-operative self-transformer children of the Father. You are like that, are you not? Is it like that? Do you experience yourself in the same way as the Father is seeing you? Raise your hands, those who remain content all the time, not just sometimes. You remember the word "sada", do you not? You are raising your hands slowly. Good. Very good. Only a few of you are raising your hands, and you are raising them after careful consideration. However, BapDada has repeatedly drawn your attention: Now, look at both the time and also the self. Check the speed of the time and the speed of the self. You have to pass with honours, do you not? Each one of you should think: I am raj dular(i) (royal specially loved child) of the Father. You do consider yourselves to be royal children, do you not? What love and remembrance does BapDada give you every day? "Beloved children". So, who are the beloved ones? The ones who follow the Father. And it is very, very, very easy to follow. It is not difficult at all. If you follow in just one aspect, you will easily be following in all other aspects. It is just one line that the Father reminds you of every day. You remember that, do you not? Consider yourself to be a soul and remember Me, your Father. It is just one line, is it not? And it is souls who remember it. Those who have received treasures from the Father cannot stay without doing service because they have plentiful attainment and limitless treasures. You are the children of
the Bestower. You cannot stay without giving to others. And what is the title that the majority of you have been given? Double foreigners. So, your title itself is "double". Seeing all of you, BapDada is pleased and always automatically sings the song, "Wah My children! wah!" It is good. In which plane have you come from all the different countries? Physically, you may have come in any plane, but which plane is BapDada seeing? You have all reached your lovely home in the plane of deep love. Today, BapDada is giving every child the blessing: 0 lovely, beloved child, always be a jewel of contentment and spread the light of contentment into the world. Remain content and make others content. Some children say that it is easy to remain content, but to make others content feels a little difficult. BapDada knows that if you want to make each and every soul content, the method for that is very easy....
If you replace the above bold words "BapDada" with "I, BapDada" or "the Father" with "Me", you will get a closer relationship imho.
eg1.
From : Today, BapDada is seeing His jewels of contentment who always ...
To : Today, I, BapDada is seeing His jewels of contentment who always ...
eg2.
Fom : BapDada knows that if you want to make each and every soul content ...
To : I know that if you want to make each and every soul content ...
eg3.
From : Those who have received treasures from the Father cannot stay without doing service because they have plentiful attainment and limitless treasures....
To : Those who have received treasures from Me cannot stay without doing service because they have plentiful attainment and limitless treasures....

Try it and see. Get a Murli. Replace the pronouns from third party pronouns to first party pronouns, and keep remembering that the Murli is being spoken LIVE in front of you.
Now what is the difference you feel ?

The PBK Murlis, God also use this third party pronoun to represent himself.

Imagine if you go to school or college and your Maths teacher Mr Smith standing in front of the blackboard says to you "Mr Smith has to give you homework for the summer", rather than "I have to give you homework for the summer". Which one sounds strange to you whilst you are sitting in the classroom ? Which relationship feels real ?

For me, I like it when God says directly to me : "I love you", or "I, God, love you", rather than "God loves you". The relationship feels real.

I like it when God speaks to me directly, not using indirect third party pronouns. For during meditation, (or Amrit Vela, or your sweet chit-chats if you wish), I am sure most poeple do not use third party pronouns when they are having their sweet conversations with God. So why use third party pronouns during live Murlis ?

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Re: Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 28 Apr 2009

bansy wrote: 1)I like it when God speaks to me directly, not using indirect third party pronouns. 2)For during meditation, (or Amrit Vela, or your sweet chit-chats if you wish), I am sure most poeple do not use third party pronouns when they are having their sweet conversations with God. So why use third party pronouns during live Murlis ?
A mother says to child that - Mother loves you, mother came insted of I love you, I came.

When there is large gap between the two persons who are communicating this third party usage is used.

God is common to all, hence third party is used. President of America/India will not sign as I(or by his peronal name) at the end of letter. There it would be written as President of America/India.

Children should remember word Baba, love Baba, BapDada and not just the word "I".

Murli is read by some human beings(usually sisters) to others. If there is no word God, Father, Baba, then "I" can give the feeling of sister who is reading that. Murli can never be sweet. The whole purpose of Murli is to remember Baba and not remember "I", or the sister.

If the sister goes on reading I, I, I then a new comer will get totally upset or will still be under ignorance.

Baba sometimes compares himself with Krishna, sometimes wants to compare Krishna with Shiva or God.Baba knows that he is Shiva or God. But people do not know that. If Baba uses just I, I, I , people won't understand that the soul that speaks through Brahma is Shiva.

I is symbol of both ego and swamaan. It is necessary to make things clear(give clear introduction). So baba uses the word ''I" to make clear. he says I am Master Almighty Authority, Purifier, etc. But if he uses that beyond limit, then it may be a less useful.

Aim of Baba is to take away children''s intellect beyond this world. hence Baba uses that Father for himself.
---
1)I like both.

2)Yoga is performed by a soul that is already knowing God. Hence there is no need of third party usage. There is no mediator, either Brahma baba or the sister/teacher.

Even if some remember Brahma baba, there is no question or confusion, ignorance in Yoga. There is no need to wait/think what may be the next sentence. All the thoughts are predefined(known). Hence third party usage is less efficient here.

The same live Murli will be read by sister later. It will be read repeatedly for years after years. Live Murli is for just once and in front of limited number of people. So baba has to take care of future.

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Re: Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

Post by bansy » 28 Apr 2009

This is a reply I have typically gotten but it does not meet the point.

One must remember first that a Murli is SPOKEN by God. Therefore it should not be read but to be listened to.

If Murlis are being read, then it is scripture. So if any BK or PBK are reading Murlis in third party form, then it is scripture.

The Murli is the divine song. Does one read the divine song, or does one listen to it ? Or is it just a recording which you can rewind , replay, fast forward, edit and delete ?

During a live situation, there is no need for third party pronouns.

Now in the BKWSU there are only a few live situations each year for Murlis that are SPOKEN.
The same live Murli will be read by Sister later. It will be read repeatedly for years after years. Live Murli is for just once and in front of limited number of people. So Baba has to take care of future.
Yes, it is used for service.
But just as almost everyone has gotten used to having pronouns in third party form (as it is a sign of devotee bahkti sankskars - reading scripture), then children can just as easily read the Murlis in using pronouns in non third-party form. As it will be the children in the rosary will be able to discern who the "I"s and "you"s are in the Murlis. Those who are unable to discern means they are unable to recognise God as it has become devotion worship.

There is only one "I". There is no ego in its use for the Supreme Soul. There is only ego (body conscious) in its use for every other soul.

Hence through Bhakti worship and scriptures, there are multiple thousands of names made up for the word God : Allah, Baba, Alaf, and so on etc. A single "I" ends all that.

The next time anyone tries to have a sweet conversation with God, try talking to him in third party from. Then try talking to him in direct form.

The use of "I" in the physical world is different from its use in the spiritual (soul) context. Which is why "OM" Shanti is used.

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Re: Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

Post by shivshankar » 28 Apr 2009

bansy wrote:So why use third party pronouns during live Murlis ?
Imho He speaks like that, because He is not speaking for everyone in the world now. I think it will be changed when the last preach will take place, when the knowldge and His message will be spread all over the world. In that moment He will have an opportunity to use "I", because everyone will listen to Him in that moment. Yet He had used third party in order to make introduction into knowledge easier:
mbbhat wrote:The same live Murli will be read by Sister later. It will be read repeatedly for years after years. Live Murli is for just once and in front of limited number of people. So Baba has to take care of future.
When there will be no necessity for printed Murlis, and when there will be only live Murlis, I think He will use "I".

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Re: Who speaks -usage of third party: Bap-Dada, Father, ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Jun 2010

Some example of Murli points where Baba has used the word "I" as the first word.

SM 3-3-82(1):- Meethay bachche- MAIN PAAVAN DUNIYAA BANAANE AAYAA HUN. Tum mere madad_gaar bano to paavan duniyaa ke maalik ban jaayenge. -67
= Sweet children- I HAVE COME TO CREATE PURE WORLD. If you become my helpers, you will become owners of the pure world.



SM 6-3-82(1):- “Main aayaa hun tum parvaanon ko jeete ji maar apney saath le jaaney. -71 [main, spirit]
= I have come to kill parvaanon (mostly like butter flies) and take them with me.

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