Who is Shiv and Who is ShivBaba? Are they different souls?

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.
I am starting this new thread inorder to get clarity about Whether Shiv and ShivBaba are different souls? If ShivBaba is different soul, then why Shiv is mentioned also for that soul? And whether Ram of Sngamyug different from the soul of Shiv?
And who is the number one Sita and the Banni of Sangamyugi Ram? It is said for brahma that brahma is number one sita, and also it is said that Brahma is banni of Shiv.
In some other post Rudraputra has replied that ShivBaba is not Shiv but some other soul who is also the Banni of Brahma. As I could not find that post I have sreated this new post, as this topic is the core.
Few Murli points:

Murli date 8.1.85, pg.2:
Tum ho Ram ki Shrimat par. Ram kaho Shiv kaho, naam bahut rakh diye hai.

Murli date 24.4.85:
(a)page 2,
Baap kahate hain mai is brahma tan se bolta hoon. Mai hee is bachhe ka responsible hoon.

(b)page3
Ram gaya Ravan gayo ... unka bhi arth kitna sahaj hai. Jaroor Sangamyug hoga jabki Ram ka aur Ravan ka parivaar hai.

Murli date 9.11.74, pg. 2:
Ram Shiv ko kaha jata hai. Ram 2 japate hain to vah treta wale Ram ko nahin Yaad karte hai. Mala main oopar phool bhi dikhate hain.

Murli date 12.2.75, pg.1:
Ram akshar kyon kahate hain? kyonki Ravan Rajya hai na. To unki bheint main Ram rajya kaha jata hai. Ram hai ParamPita ParamAtma. Jisko Ishwar bhi kahate hain, Bhagwan bhi kahate hain. Asli naam unka Shiv hai.

Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[arjun]

Shiv = incorporeal God Father

ShivBaba = incorporeal God Father Shiv + the corporeal Confluence-Aged soul of Ram/Prajapita.

[shivshankar]

O man, why so many of us use to collect or produce this mental garbage? Looks like it is just another type of attachment...
Very pity, but its drama:)

[RudraPutra]

In some other post Rudraputra has replied that ShivBaba is not Shiv but some other soul who is also the Banni of Brahma.

....i have never said so i suppose...i might have said that Brahma is banni of ShivBaba and not of SHIV....so ShivBaba becomes banna of shiv....i might have asked you who is banna of BRAHMA?....even i am not getting the thread....will try to post as i get the same....
rest about the answer it is the same what ARJUN Bhai had mentioned....

[RudraPutra]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1387&p=31443&hilit=+banni#p31443
....I hope the above thread is what sachkhand wanted to post....

[mbbhat]

ShivBaba = incorporeal God Father Shiv + the corporeal Confluence-Aged soul of Ram/Prajapita.

No Murli says like this.

Murli says ShivBaba is bindu(point) many times. But in few cases, it says ShivBaba means God in a body. It never says ShivBaba= God + someone else

Actually ShivBaba means Shiv in corporeal world or Shiv on duty. It never mean Shiv plus somebody.

[arjun]

Actually ShivBaba means Shiv in corporeal world or Shiv on duty.

How can Shiv perform duty in this world without a corporeal body? And if you believe that He enters in a human body to perform His duty, then that combination of incorporeal Shiv and the corporeal human Chariot is called ShivBaba.

[shivshankar]

IMHO it is said in the Murlis that
BapDada=Shiva+Dada Lehraj soul

But I did not see anywhere in the Murlis something about: ShivBaba = incorporeal God Father Shiv + the corporeal Confluence-Aged soul of Ram/Prajapita
I think it is from "Advanced knowledge".

Logicaly Shiva=Shiva, Baba=Father, so ShivBaba=FatherShiva. I wonder how some minds can find so many meanings in those places where everything is simple and clear.
It is miracle indeed how strong is illusion and ignorance in some cases.

But I hope that those who are clever enough will pay more attention to practice of soulcounscious stage rather than practicing mindcounscious.
Because our mind can lead us so far from reality, that the way back will take a lot of time.

With best wishes, Dmitry.

[RudraPutra]

But I did not see anywhere in the Murlis something about: ShivBaba = incorporeal God Father Shiv + the corporeal Confluence-Aged soul of Ram/Prajapita
I think it is from "Advanced knowledge".

"Unki atma ka hi naam shiv hai.Vah kab badalta nahi.Sharir badalte hai to naam bhi badal jaate.Jaise BRAHMA se Shankar,phir Vishnu"----------MU 24.1.75
"Shiv is name of their soul only.It never changes.When body(corporeal media)changes, name changes.Like BRAHMA to Shankar,then Vishnu"

"Asli naam unka hai hi SHIV.Inmein pravesh karte hai tab bhi naam SHIV hi hai."----------MU 8.9.68
" Their actual name is only SHIV.When entered in them then too name is SHIV only."

"ShivBaba somras pilate hai.Yun naam toh unka shiv hai;parantu padhate hai(kisime pravesh karke) isliye SOMNATH kah diya hai.Rudra bhi SOMNATH ko kaha jaatahai."--------MU 6.11.98
"ShivBaba make us drink the nectar of moon.As such his name is SHIV;but since (he) teaches(which happens only by entering in corporeal media)therefore he is called SOMNATH(controller of moon).RUDRA is also said to SOMNATH"

....ShivBaba is called as he teaches via corporeal media else soul's name is only shiv....

"Ek alaf ka pata nahi;baki toh bindi bindi ho jaati.Alaf ke saath bindi dene se faayda hai"---------MU 22.4.05
"Don't know about one ALAF;rest all becomes point.With ALAF if POINT(shiv) is given then its profitable."
....who is this alaf? with whom point SHIV should be seen? i.e SHIV bindi if seen with alaf it is profitable....so who is alaf? in Murli it has been said "ALAF ko mila ALLAH aur BE ko mili BADSHAHI"....who is alaf?

"BAAP alaf hi samjhaate hai.Alaf se hi varsa milta hai."---------MU 20.7.04
"Father explains only about alaf.We get inheritance only by ALAF"

.......name of SHIV remains the same but it changes when he enters the corporeal media and with different media he gets different name....Murli had cleared the content....

Logicaly Shiva=Shiva, Baba=Father, so ShivBaba=FatherShiva. I wonder how some minds can find so many meanings in those places where everything is simple and clear.
It is miracle indeed how strong is illusion and ignorance in some cases.

....hope you got the answer for your logical thinking from above Murli points....everything is really simple and clear but not the way how you are getting it dear....just see the below points....

"Creator BRAHMA ko nahi kaha jaata hai."------------MU 13.2.75
"BRAHMA is not called as creator"
----but even it is said that
"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA ko bhi creator kehte hai."-----------MU 26.7.77
"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA is also called creator"
here clearly it is indicated that "BRAHMA" is not the creator but "PRAJAPITA BRAHMA" is the creator....so BRAHMA and PRAJAPITA BRAHMA are two different personalities.....hence in Murli it has been said
"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA vah dono to naami graami hai"-----------MU 19.3.68
"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA they both are famous"

why they both? because they are our parents PRAJAPITA=Father + BRAHMA=MOTHER...similar to how we say MAAT PITA in Hindi....

But I hope that those who are clever enough will pay more attention to practice of soulcounscious stage rather than practicing mindcounscious.
Because our mind can lead us so far from reality, that the way back will take a lot of time.

....you might be correct but why we were not able to get the soulconscious stage in our 63 births?...baba comes here to make us from impure to pure.....that is why in Murli it has been said that
"Tum bachchon ko aakar atma ka parichay bhi mein deta hoon aur mere hi bataaye raaste par chal tum dehi abhimani bante ho"
(By coming here I myself give you the knowledge of soul and walking on my shown path you will become soul conscious)
.....you don't know who ShivBaba is so how come you would walk in his shown path? how you would attain the soul conscious stage?....everything must be practical dear....

[arjun]

IMHO it is said in the Murlis that
BapDada=Shiva+Dada Lehraj soul

Can you quote the Murli where it has been said that BapDada=Shiva+Dada Lehraj soul

But I did not see anywhere in the Murlis something about: ShivBaba = incorporeal God Father Shiv + the corporeal Confluence-Aged soul of Ram/Prajapita
I think it is from "Advanced knowledge".

I have already quoted the relevant Murli point in the PBK section in response to mbbhat's query on the same subject in one of the threads. But, sadly, like shivsena Bhai, mbbhat is also habituated to asking the same question again and again and has started a new thread on the same subject. In that thread he had asked:

So do you mean ShivBaba means the two souls in a body?

How do you or PBKs come to conclusion? Is it just by Advanced Knowledge(Mr. Dixit's words) or any Murli point supports it?

“अशरीरी और शारीरिक दोनों का मेल है उनको तुम कहते हो बाबा। यह वंडरफुल रथ है ना। इनका गायन भी है, मन्दिर भी बनाते हैं। कोई किस रीति, कोई किस रीति रथ को श्रृंगारते हैं।“ (रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक 29.03.68)
“You call the combination of the bodiless and the body as Baba. This is a wonderful Chariot, isn’t it? It is praised as well as temple is built for it. Some decorate the Chariot in some way and some decorate it in some other way.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 29.03.68)

There is another related point which says that Shiv means a point (i.e. a soul).

“शिव माना बिन्दी। रुद्र माना बिन्दी नहीं।“ (रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक 06.06.77)
“Shiv means a point (i.e. soul). Rudra does not mean a point (i.e. a soul).” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 06.06.77)

[shivshankar]

1. "ShivBaba somras pilate hai.Yun naam toh unka Shiv hai;parantu padhate hai(kisime pravesh karke) isliye SOMNATH kah diya hai.Rudra bhi SOMNATH ko kaha jaatahai."--------MU 6.11.98
"ShivBaba make us drink the nectar of moon.As such his name is Shiv;but since (he) teaches(which happens only by entering in corporeal media)therefore he is called SOMNATH(controller of moon).RUDRA is also said to SOMNATH"

....ShivBaba is called as he teaches via corporeal media else soul's name is only Shiv....

2. "Tum bachchon ko aakar atma ka parichay bhi mein deta hoon aur mere hi bataaye raaste par chal tum dehi abhimani bante ho"
(By coming here I myself give you The Knowledge of soul and walking on my shown path you will become soul conscious)
....you don't know who ShivBaba is so how come you would walk in his shown path? how you would attain the soul conscious stage?....everything must be practical dear....

Dear soul or brother or whatever.

1. All I can get from the statement: As such his name is Shiv;but since (he) teaches(which happens only by entering in corporeal media)therefore he is called SOMNATH(controller of moon).RUDRA is also said to SOMNATH - Is that Shiv when he teaches may also be called SOMNATH. I did not see anything like "Shiva may be called ShivBaba when he teaches" in this Murli point.

2. You may think about my knowledge whatever your mind wants it doesn't matter for me. As for practice: the best practice for me is to feel myself soul in a body and remeber Shiv-point of light. Because I am always the soul and He is always the Supreme Soul, it is our original state. Everything else changes from birth to birth and from counscious to conscious, but this things are permanent. If somebody prefer to remember Him in different chariots no problem. But as I see, from this forum also, it is very difficult to decide what Chariot is more proper for remembrance. For me and my spiritual progress it is enough to remeber Him as a point of Light in Paramdham, I do receive enough spiritual energy from that process.

Can you quote the Murli where it has been said that BapDada=Shiva+Dada Lehraj soul

Sorry Bhai, I think I had a mistake. It's from sister in charge rather from Murli:)

[RudraPutra]

1. "ShivBaba somras pilate hai.Yun naam toh unka Shiv hai;parantu padhate hai(kisime pravesh karke) isliye SOMNATH kah diya hai.Rudra bhi SOMNATH ko kaha jaatahai."--------MU 6.11.98
"ShivBaba make us drink the nectar of moon.As such his name is Shiv;but since (he) teaches(which happens only by entering in corporeal media)therefore he is called SOMNATH(controller of moon).RUDRA is also said to SOMNATH"



Dear soul or Brother or whatever.

1. All I can get from the statement: As such his name is Shiv;but since (he) teaches(which happens only by entering in corporeal media)therefore he is called SOMNATH(controller of moon).RUDRA is also said to SOMNATH - Is that Shiv when he teaches may also be called SOMNATH. I did not see anything like "Shiva may be called ShivBaba when he teaches" in this Murli point.

how does SHIV teaches?
....plzzz try to understand the concept.....it is clearly stated "ShivBaba SOMRAS PILATE HAI but the name is SHIV"...then who is one called SOMNATH? one who gives SOMRAS and who gives SOMRAS? ShivBaba(not told SHIV)---but how does he give SOMRAS? in corporeal form hence it is said that although name of soul is SHIV, he is called ShivBaba(initial sentence of Murli) as well as SOMNATH and RUDRA, because SHIV is in corporeal form.....that INCORPOREAL SHIV when comes in CORPOREAL MEDIA(PERMANENT Chariot) he gives that SOMRAS...this combination of INCORPOREAL IN CORPOREAL FORM IS CALLED ShivBaba while the name of soul is SHIV who comes in BABA and together they are SHIV BABA

.....even Murli point quoted by ARJUN Bhai clearly says that RUDRA is not point hence he is in body form or corporeal form and comparing with above Murli point it gets cleared that ShivBaba = SOMNATH = RUDRA = not point = not SHIV
therefore...ShivBaba is not equal to SHIV...hence ShivBaba and SHIV are different.....thats all....

[mbbhat]

"""PRAJAPITA Brahma vah dono to naami graami hai"-----------MU 19.3.68
"PRAJAPITA Brahma they both are famous"

Dear Rudraputra soul,
Can you write at least two sentences just before this Murli point? Otherwise, I do not think this point can have full/real value.
-----
SM 8-1-81(1):- Brahma Baba ShivBaba ka rath hai. Donon ka ikattaa part chalta. Ismey zara bhi samshay na aana chahiye.
= Brahma Baba is Chariot of ShivBaba. Parts of both go together. You should not get doubt even a little in this.

Dear pbk souls,

If you say ShivBaba is not a point and already a corporeal thing(two souls plus body) why should Baba say Brahma Baba is Chariot of ShivBaba?

Who is Brahma Baba here? Dada Lekhraj or Mr. Dixit?
------

Arjun soul wrote:- How can Shiv perform duty in this world without a corporeal body? And if you believe that He enters in a human body to perform His duty, then that combination of incorporeal Shiv and the corporeal human Chariot is called ShivBaba

Shiv performs his duty even in Bhaktimarg by giving visions.

What I mean to say is- when a soul realizes/thinks/loves/remembers/prays Shiv, Shiv becomes ShivBaba for it. Even in Bhakti, people call ShivBaba. Whenever one remembers, thinks, prays Shiv, Shiv responds either in gyaanmarg or in Bhaktimarg. This is as though there is len-den(giving and taking) between God and the child/devotee. Under such condition, act/role of Shiv itself is called as ShivBaba.

Else, there is no difference between Shiv and ShivBaba.

Most of the Murli points say that ShivBaba is point. It never says ShiBaba is Shiv plus somebody or ShivBaba is corporeal.

[shivshankar]

Mbbhat's post
+1

[shivshankar]

Dear souls. I do not visit BK centre as student for at least full 3 years. There were a lot of realisation about life, world, people, BK, my mind etc. etc. during this period of time.

But the understanding that I am a soul and God is Soul did not disappeared somewhere, but became more conscious. And practice of meditating or remembering or concentrating, whatever you want to call it, on the Supreme Soul/point of light/Shiva/ShivBaba/etc/etc is the most effective among all technics of self progress which I had tried in this life. It is more effective than mantra meditation, more effective than silence meditation without object, more effective than reiki.

Dear PBK's. I don't understand why we should folow our mind and make things much more complicated than they really are. If I want to feel myself soul and maintain soul conscious I will remember Supreme Soul, I don't need to remember Supreme Soul in a body of a Chariot. If you think that we should know where Shiva is now, so we need to know Chariot, it's pity but it's YOUR problem. I have PRACTICAL RESULT from remembering Shiva, the SOUL in Paramdham, soul's world. So I wish you to stop creating logical theories and just try this simple and effective from my experience method of self progrees.

With best wishes, Dmitry.