Presence of ShivBaba

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arjun
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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 13 Aug 2012

so- what is the use or result of the strictness in AIVV? ZERO?
How else will someone who is jealous of AIVV/PBKs react?

Anyway, for your kind information I would like to tell that those who try to follow the Shrimat or rules strictly under the present practical part of ShivBaba will be included under Suryavanshis (sun dynasty) and those who don't care for rules or support such violations of Shrimat will be included among Chandravanshis. So, you decide which dynasty you wish to be part of.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Aug 2012

What I asked was what is the result till now? if there had been strictness in AIVV from 1976?

you said about future. That even BKs believe the same. Those who folllow srimath rightly will attain good status.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 13 Aug 2012

What I asked was what is the result till now? if there had been strictness in AIVV from 1976?
The result is that whatever violations of Shrimat are being committed by BKWSU are being avoided by AIVV. Baba says this is time to accumulate punya and if BKWSU continues to accumulate sins by violating Shrimat, then you can just compare the result.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Aug 2012

Even after claiming to be being strict, AIVV believes that - the marks in the dharna subject of PBKs will be compensated only when the BK group of 2,25 lakh souls join them. so- is it that- the lesser strict organization has higher marks in dharna subject and more strict organization has lower marks in dharna subject?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 14 Aug 2012

Even after claiming to be being strict, AIVV believes that - the marks in the dharna subject of PBKs will be compensated only when the BK group of 2,25 lakh souls join them. so- is it that- the lesser strict organization has higher marks in dharna subject and more strict organization has lower marks in dharna subject?
I have already clarified that dharana is a subject at individual level whereas the violations of Shrimat that ShivBaba is pointing out are at organizational level.

When we praise BKWSU for something (dharana and seva) you say why do we praise, and when we point out violations of Shrimat you express your anger. You are not satisfied either way mbbhat Bhai. You just want to argue for the sake of arguement. Keep on arguing. :D

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 14 Aug 2012

you express your anger.
I never expressed anger. But, just it was debating. that is all.
You are not satisfied either way
how can one be satisfied- when pbk philosophy says- Ravan , hiranyakashyap becomes Krishna and Dharmaraj.

Moreover- the praise what PBKs do for BKs is their selfish motive, Because they believe without BK 2.25 lakh souls they are incomplete. And since knowledge is something which can never be proved by debate, and Yoga is also gupt, so there cannot be a judgment on both of them. But dharna and seva are visible outside.
So- if PBKs declare that- We are good in first two and BKs are in good in next two, they can sit and relax and go on commenting.

And the main advantage is- They need not prove themselves at all. Because they can say- our dharna will become perfect only when the other group arises. So- in praising BKs, there is lot of excuses for self (PBKs).

This is my view. You need not accept.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 14 Aug 2012

how can one be satisfied- when PBK philosophy says- Ravan , hiranyakashyap becomes Krishna and Dharmaraj.
Confluence Age is not yet over. Just wait and watch.
Moreover- the praise what PBKs do for BKs is their selfish motive, Because they believe without BK 2.25 lakh souls they are incomplete. And since knowledge is something which can never be proved by debate, and Yoga is also gupt, so there cannot be a judgment on both of them. But dharna and seva are visible outside.
So- if PBKs declare that- We are good in first two and BKs are in good in next two, they can sit and relax and go on commenting. And the main advantage is- They need not prove themselves at all. Because they can say- our dharna will become perfect only when the other group arises. So- in praising BKs, there is lot of excuses for self (PBKs).
U are free to defame PBKs.
We are making efforts in all the four subjects under the direct guidance of ShivBaba. As I said above Confluence Age is not yet over. Just wait and watch.

rmn

Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by rmn » 14 Aug 2012

My dear brothers' souls-1. arjun.mbbhat,satyaprakash,fluffy-bunny and Shiva sena and others.

One fundmental mistake we are doing, As per Murli points each of u telling adifferenty way of doing Yoga.
As per shivasena-As per Murli Points: Aakra Mama me nirkar ko yad karo/ shiv and shakti are coming in guljar dadajii body. ddl is not coming.
As per BKs-- and muralipoints : DDL-Avyaka brahama and Shiva nirakar are coming in guljar dadajii body.
As per PBKs and Murli points : Sakar me nikar ko yad karo, DDL-Avyaka brahama, Shiva-nikar are coming in Virendra Dev Dixit's body. Virendra Dev Dixit muk me Shiva nikar ko yad karo.

My doughts w.r.t Murli points :a) Jis tan me mai ata hu us ka naam brahama rakra hu. Then why BKs not calling guljar dadajii as Brahama.
b) Alone soul and alone body can"t do any thing, as such why shivasena's opinion to yad ShivBap through mamam jii brukhuti.
c) If Shiva and brahama-DDL are coming in Virendra Dev Dixit body- the how Virendra Dev Dixit do Yoga with shiv.
d) As per Murli points jis ne pura 84 janm complete kiya mai us tan me ata hu.


Any real knowledge full person can answer or clarify the above points with respect to Murli, it may be diffucult but possible already lot of information is available with all of u pl copy and paste suitable.

I do not know the opinion of BKWSU.

thank

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arjun
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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 14 Aug 2012

rmn wrote:c) If Shiva and brahama-DDL are coming in Veerendra Dev Dixit body- the how Veerendra Dev Dixit do Yoga with Shiv.
The soul of Shankar/Confluence aged Ram (i.e. Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) can remember either the incorporeal or through his own body.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 14 Aug 2012

My doughts w.r.t Murli points :a) Jis tan me mai ata hu us ka naam brahama rakra hu. Then why BKs not calling guljar dadajii as Brahama.

Because it is not just shiv coming in Dadi. The entrance is of two souls and one subtle body in Dadi.

in other words- Shiv has already entered (would be inside the ) subtle body of someone (DL), so that body should be called as Brahma, is it not? So- how can Dadi be called as Brahma?

that means- (Shiv in Avyakt Brahma also called as Avyakt baapdaadaa) enter Dadi. That is why BKWSU says- Avyakt BapDada enter in Dadi

more are discussed here- http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2107
-------------
Regarding how to remember ShivBaba- i have put my views here-
post dated - 23rd June 2008 onwards.
http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1468&start=105

rmn

Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by rmn » 14 Aug 2012

very much thank full to PBK Arjun and BK mbbhat, u both have answered as per Murli points. Murli is one. Baba is one but u two have quoted diferent manner. This is only creating lot of confusion in the BKs and PBKs and others. What is wrong with muralis or what is wrong with our understanding , how to come on one line when we all will come on one line. Pl tell
thanks once more

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 14 Aug 2012

I would like to say this:-

Most of the PBKs are innocent and are deceived by Mr. Dixit. and most of them follow purity, etc like BKs, there is no much to bother. But, i feel their knowledge is wrong interpretation and hence no spiritual improvement will take place there- because their Yoga is totally incorrect.

But since they have pure feelings to Mr. dixit, Baba says- bhaavnaa kaa bhaadaa miltaa hai= As one's pure feelings, i give fruit. so- they will get to that extent.

Their Yoga would be like a little bit worse than the foolish BKs who remember just Dada Lekhraj without driving their intellect to Paramdham or like people in Bhaktimarg who chant om namaha shivaaya.
---
but some PBKs will develop karmic account for misguiding BKs.

And in drama, there should be Godly Maya for BKs. So- PBKs have their unique role there.
--------
Essence:- Baba says- forget all body and bodily relations and remember Me (Him). Remember Father and property (heaven). give everyone this message. Try to become faristaa= Bap samaaan. Try to be content and egoless and soul conscious.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 14 Aug 2012

mbbhat wrote:in other words- Shiv has already entered (would be inside the ) subtle body of someone (DL), so that body should be called as Brahma, is it not? So- how can Dadi be called as Brahma?
ShivBaba has said in the Murlis that He doesn't enter in Subtle Region dweller Brahma. So,the question of Shiv entering in Brahma and then in Gulzar Dadi is ruled out.
When Shiv entered in Brahma Baba there was no change in face or body, but when BapDada enters in Gulzar Dadi there are physical changes. This shows taht Shiv doesn't enter.
When Shiv entered Brahma Baba his own ears used to hear first. But Gulzar Dadi becomes unconscious. So, Shiv doesn't enter.
There used to be no prior intimation of Shiv's entry in Brahma Baba. But BapDada's entry in Dadi is announced many months in advance. Murlis say Shiv's birth cannot be predicted, Krishna's birth can be. So, Shiv doesn't enter in Dadi.
Most of the PBKs are innocent and are deceived by Mr. Dixit. and most of them follow purity, etc like BKs, there is no much to bother. But, i feel their knowledge is wrong interpretation and hence no spiritual improvement will take place there- because their Yoga is totally incorrect.

But since they have pure feelings to Mr. dixit, Baba says- bhaavnaa kaa bhaadaa miltaa hai= As one's pure feelings, i give fruit. so- they will get to that extent.

Their Yoga would be like a little bit worse than the foolish BKs who remember just Dada Lekhraj without driving their intellect to Paramdham or like people in Bhaktimarg who chant om namaha shivaaya.
It is just the opposite. Most BKs are innocent and are being misguided by the BK leaders for material benefit.
PBKs remember One ShivBaba through Shankar/Prajapita, but BKs remember numerous dehdhari gurus (Brahma Baba, Mama, Dadis, Didis, Dadas, senior BKs, etc.) besides non-living places and things. Their Yoga is dependent on external atmosphere (light, music, fragrance, dress, toli etc.) whereas PBKs remember ShivBaba easily without any of these requirements.
but some PBKs will develop karmic account for misguiding BKs.
But many senior BKs will develop karmic account for misguiding innocent BKs.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 14 Aug 2012

ShivBaba has said in the Murlis that He doesn't enter in Subtle Region dweller Brahma. So,the question of Shiv entering in Brahma and then in Gulzar Dadi is ruled out.
there are two subtle Brahmas. One before 1969- which was just image of complete brahma in Subtle Region. Baba had said that- i do not enter in that subtle brahma.

the other subtle brahma is the real subtle brahma (DL after 1969).
The Murli point applies to the previous one.
When Shiv entered in Brahma Baba there was no change in face or body, but when BapDada enters in Gulzar Dadi there are physical changes. This shows taht Shiv doesn't enter.
No need. Because when just shiv enters- there is no change.But when both enter, there can be change- why not?
When Shiv entered Brahma Baba his own ears used to hear first. But Gulzar Dadi becomes unconscious. So, Shiv doesn't enter.
It is due to entrance of both .
There used to be no prior intimation of Shiv's entry in Brahma Baba. But BapDada's entry in Dadi is announced many months in advance. Murlis say Shiv's birth cannot be predicted, Krishna's birth can be. So, Shiv doesn't enter in Dadi.
Now- the entrance is of both. Hence the result.

Yes, it is true that- when ShivBaba enters subtle brahma and leaves- still cannot be predicted. ShivBaba may go to Paramdham leaving brahma Baba in Subtle Region whenever he wishes.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 14 Aug 2012

there are two subtle Brahmas.
I have heard in Murlis that there are two Brahmas. But I have never heard there are two subtle Brahmas.
the other subtle Brahma is the real subtle Brahma (DL after 1969).
Shiv enter none of the subtle Brahmas (even if they exist).

"Parmatma ke liye hee gaayan hai – Hey patit-paavan, aatey bhi hain patit duniya aur patit shareeer may. Patit shareeer ka naam hai Prajapita Brahma. Ismay pravesh kar kahtey hain mai bahut janmon kay anth vaaley saadhaaran manushya tan may pravesh kartaa hoon. Sookshmavatanvaasi sampoorna Brahma may nahee aatey hain. Khud kahtey hain inkay bahut janmon ke anth ke janma may aata hoon. Bahut janma letey hee hain Raadhey-Krishna. Unkay bahut janmon kay anth ka janma saadhaaran hai. Aisey toh kahtey nahee hain ki mai paavan shareeer may pravesh kartaa hoon. Bhagwaanuwaach mai saadhaaran tan may aata hoon. Ab Bhagwaan jaroor aakarke is saadhaaran tan dwara aatmaon ko baith samjhaatey hain ki mai Parampita Parmatma hoon. Mai Krishna kee aatma nahee hoon, na Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar kee aatma hoon. Mai Parampita Parmatma hoon, jisko Shiv Parmaatmaay namah kahaa jaataa hai. Mai ismay aaya hoon. Mai sookshmavatan vasi Brahma may pravesh nahee kartaa hoon. Mujhey toh yahaan patiton ko paavan banana hai. Merey dwara hee vah sookshmavatan vasi Brahma paavan banaa hai, isliye unko sookshma may dikhaya hai.....Bhagwaan oonch tey oonch niraakaar ShivBaba hai. Varsa deney ke liye jaroor Brahma tan may aayega. Yah Prajapita Brahma hai, sookshmavatanvaasi Brahma ko Prajapita nahee kahengey. Vahaan thodey hee praja rachengey. Ham Brahmakumar kumariyaan saakaar may hain toh Prajapita Brahma bhi saakaar may hain. Yah raaz aakar samjho. Ham is Dada ko Bhagwaan nahee kahtey. ... Yahaan koi paavan hai nahee. Trimurti Shiv ke badley Trimurti Brahma kah diya hai. Parantu Trimurti Brahma ka koi arth nahee hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 24.11.07, pg 1&2)

“It is famous only for the Supreme Soul: O purifier of the sinful ones. He even comes in a sinful world and a sinful body. The name of the sinful body is Prajapita Brahma. He enters in this one and says: I enter in an ordinary human body of the last one of many births. He does not come in the complete Brahma who is a Subtle Region dweller. He Himself says: I come in the last one of their many births. It is Radha and Krishna who take many births. The last one of their many births is ordinary. He does not say – I enter in a pure body. God said: I enter in an ordinary body. Well, God certainly comes and explains to the souls through this ordinary body: I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul. I am not the soul of Krishna, nor am I the soul of Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar. I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul, the one who is called ‘Shiv Parmaatmaay namah”. I have come in this one. I don’t enter in the Subtle Region dweller Brahma. I have to come and purify the sinful ones here. It is through me that the Subtle Region dweller Brahma has become pure. This is why he has been shown in a subtle form........The highest on high incorporeal ShivBaba is God. In order to give the inheritance He will certainly come in the body of Brahma. This is Prajapita Brahma; the Subtle Region dweller Brahma will not be called Prajapita. The subjects (praja) will not be created there? We Brahmakumar-kumaris are in corporeal form; so Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal form. Come and understand this secret. We do not call this Dada God. ...... Nobody is pure here. Instead of Trimurti Shiv they have mentioned Trimurti Brahma. But there is no meaning of Trimurti Brahma.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.11.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)
No need. Because when just Shiv enters- there is no change.But when both enter, there can be change- why not?
When Shiv doesn't enter in subtle Brahma at all, then the question of Shiv entering in Gulzar Dadi does not arise at all.
Yes, it is true that- when ShivBaba enters subtle Brahma and leaves- still cannot be predicted. ShivBaba may go to Paramdham leaving Brahma Baba in Subtle Region whenever he wishes.
It is the biggest misconception among BKs that Shiv has gone back to the supreme abode. Read the following Murli point:

"Tum jaantey ho ham ShivBaba ke baney hain toh yah deh ka bhaan chodnaa padey. Apney ko aatma ashareeri samajhna mehnat ka kaam hai. Isko kahaa hee jaataa hai rajyog aur gyaan. Donon akshar aatey hain. Manushya jab martey hain toh unko kahtey hain Ram-Ram kaho ya guru log apna naam dey detey hain. Guru mar jaataa toh fir unkay bachchey ko guru kar detey hain. Yahaan toh Baap jaayengey toh sabhi ko jaanaa hai. Yah mrityulok ka antim janma hai. Baba hamko amarlok may ley jaatey hain, via muktidhaam jaanaa hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 24.03.08, pg 3)

“You know that we have become ShivBaba’s (children), so we have to leave this body consciousness. To consider ourselves a bodiless soul is a difficult task. This is called rajyog and knowledge. Both the words are used. When people are about to die they are asked to utter the name of Ram or the gurus give their name. When a guru dies, his son is made the (next) guru. Here, when the Father departs, everyone has to go. This is the last birth in the abode of death. Baba takes us to the abode of eternity. We have to go via the abode of salvation.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.03.08, pg 3 published by BKs)
- BKs say that with the demise of Brahma Baba in 1969, Father Shiv also left for the Supreme Abode. But in the above Murli Baba is telling that here, when the Father departs, everyone has to go. Had ShivBaba departed in 1969, everyone should have gone to the Supreme Abode along with Him. But it did not happen like that. So, does it not prove that ShivBaba is even now performing His task in this world itself?

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