Corporeal and subtle body

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Corporeal and subtle body

Post by new knowledge » 08 May 2010

1) What’s the difference between the corporeal, i.e, gross body and the subtle body?
2) According to the BKWSU knowledge, the corporeal body comprises of 5 elements – earth, water, air, fire and sky/space (Aakaash); but why is there no any mention, in Murlis and Avyakt Vanis, about the elements and anotomy/physiology of the subtle body?
3) Is it that the subtle body is the outcome of the corporeal/gross body and it takes shape like the corporeal body within a specific time period? Or, is it that the corporeal body is the outcome of the subtle body and it takes shape like the subtle body within a specific time period?
4) Out of corporeal and subtle bodies, which type of body is better medium to awake consciousness of a soul and works with more efficiency, accuracy and speed?
5) Today the scientific inventions are leading technology at more and more subtle level - from steam engine (macro-level technology) to microelectronics to nanotechnology and it’s our natural tendency to invent, use and believe in technologies working at more and more subtle levels. But I can’t understand that why BKWSU believe that the corporeal/gross body is the base medium to awake the consciousness of souls and that the subtle body totally depands on the corporeal body for its activities.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 09 May 2010

Dear brother.

Very good topic for discussion.

Both bk and pbk knowledge concentrate more on gross bodies and hence they have completely forgotten about the subtle body(anth-vahak sharir) mentioned in avaykt Vanis ....since they cannot think of God Shiva without a gross body, they need a body of DL or VD to remember Shiva....only those souls who have the correct understanding of Gyan(Murlis) and Yoga(avaykt Vanis) will be able to understand the subtle angelic body and at the right time in drama in future will be able to fly out of this body(with help of no. 1 shivshakti) and will have meeting with BapDada in subtle angelic region (where BapDada is waiting for his farishta 108 children).

shivsena.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 10 May 2010

My basic question to new knowledge.
Who are you?
And the readymade answer of anyone who has taken some spiritual knwoledge is that I am soul.
But are you aware of being a soul?
No!
Then what are you presently aware of? What is your capacity and stage of awareness?
It is the bitter truth that almost all are aware of their physical gross body and this body alone. Only a few have some glimpses or a short period experience of subtle body.
Why is it so?
Because the soul is so much intoxicated by the physical gross attractions that it cannot pass across this barrier. And this is needed. If not even vicious souls can go into the subtle areas and create havoc in the total system. We can see this in todays computer networks too. Only administrator has the authority to make changes in the subtle functioning of the network. But there are some hackers who illegally get into the subtle functioning of the system and create mishciefs. Ravan does this too. And asurs following Ravan too try and hack the system of the universe. Which has led to degradation.
Corporeal physical gross body and this world is the base for all the above. This world is the place where the souls are tested. There is a nice saying by a great saint of south.
It says that, this world is the laboratory or workplace of The Creator. One who is eligible here is eligible for that place too. One who is not eligible here is also not eligible for that place too OH Lord KudalSangam.

Where has the teacher to be? Where students are present the teacher too has to be present there.
And so Shiv has to be in this corporeal gross physical world alongwith the children. So that He can teach and make His children eligible for that place.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 11 May 2010

Sach_Khand wrote: And so Shiv has to be in this corporeal gross physical world alongwith the children.
Sanjeev.
Dear sanjeev.

I feel that Shiva+shakti ie BapDada(mat-pita) are waiting for their 108 children in subtle angelic region where the meeting of atma and paramatma will take place in future with the help of subtle bodies(avaykt milan). This meeting of souls and Supreme Soul is remembered in Bhakti -marg as shiv and shaligrams being worshipped together. Those who recognise their true spiritual mata-pita are then labelled as full-cast brahmins.

Those who are looking for corporeal physical gross body are in the category of BKs and PBKs(praja quality souls) who never have the capacity link to Shiva without the body (either DL or VD) hence they are remembered in Bhakti marg as half-cast brahmins(pushkarni brahmins) in whose rememberence there is only one temple in ajmer(pushkar).
So that He can teach and make His children eligible for that place.
Murlis and avaykt Vanis are being read by every bk and pbk but only 108 will understand them and they will recognise their true mat-pita by study of Murlis and will attain the avaykt farishta stage by imbibing the Vani points....the rest 9,16,000 will just attend bk-pbk classes as a ritual and just get karna-ras(pleasure of hearing) without understanding what Murlis/Vanis actually mean to say.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 11 May 2010

shivsena wrote: Dear sanjeev.
I feel that Shiva+shakti ie BapDada(mat-pita) are waiting for their 108 children in subtle angelic region where the meeting of atma and paramatma will take place in future with the help of subtle bodies(avaykt milan). ...
Surely they are waiting. But that does not mean that there is no physical body. They are waiting in their subtle stage and want their children too to attain that stage. It is said in Av. Vani that children should not just keep on coming and going to Avyakt vatan but should become permanent resident of Avyakt vatan. It does not mean that children should leave their physical body by dying a physical death. Jeete jee marna hai.
shivsena wrote: ...Those who are looking for corporeal physical gross body are in the category of BKs and PBKs(praja quality souls) who never have the capacity link to Shiva without the body (either DL or VD) ...
All those who leave physical body or die does not necessarily attain Avyakt stage. They will become ghosts but not angel. Ghosts are those souls which after leaving their physical body but are still in attraction of physical pleasures through five senses. Angels are Avyakt i.e., not interested in and not attracted by sensual pleasures. And only such souls can recognise The GodFather. Both as Avyakt Bap-Dada and Prajapita Brahma i.e., Great 2 Grandfather.
shivsena wrote: ...Murlis and avaykt Vanis are being read by every BK and PBK but only 108 will understand them and they will recognise their true mat-pita by study of Murlis and will attain the avaykt farishta stage by imbibing the Vani points....the rest 9,16,000 will just attend BK-PBK classes as a ritual and just get karna-ras(pleasure of hearing) without understanding what Murlis/Vanis actually mean to say.
Are the souls of the 108 rosary not in their own physical body i.e., are they people of the past who are dead?
108 too are living in their physical body and will attain the stage with the help of ShivBaba's remembrance. What is remembrance? It is the acceptance of His existence and Love for Him. There is no need to know His form of existence. It will be made known by Him and Him alone. No one can give His introduction.
(1)Some will experience Him only as Nirakar,
(2)some will experience Him even as Subtle Avyakt form and
(3)few will know Him and stand with Him even in Physical form. That completes the introduction of ShivBaba (First two states are incomplete introduction of ShivBaba). And only then the revealetion of The GodFather occurs in this world.
(4) Later many will just believe in That GodFather and get inheritence without understanding Him.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by new knowledge » 12 May 2010

sach_khand wrote:Are the souls of the 108 rosary not in their own physical body i.e., are they people of the past who are dead?
Dear brother sanjeev, I think that a physical body is essential for a spiritual seaker (Purusharthi) for his spiritual study during the process of formation of the Rosary; but after the completion of his spiritual study i.e., after the formation of the Rosary, a physical body is not necessary at all to enjoy the fruits or benifits of the spiritual study i.e., to enjoy the Unlimited Bliss in the Supreme Heaven i.e., Paramdham - the Final Destination.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 12 May 2010

Sach_Khand wrote: Surely they are waiting. But that does not mean that there is no physical body. They are waiting in their subtle stage and want their children too to attain that stage. It is said in Av. Vani that children should not just keep on coming and going to Avyakt vatan but should become permanent resident of Avyakt vatan.
yes---very true.....so how does one become permanent resident of avaykt vatan !!!!!!!... by remembering corporeal prajapita or by remembering no 1 shivshakti (avaykt brahma ie Mama)
It does not mean that children should leave their physical body by dying a physical death. Jeete jee marna hai.
Sanjeev.
I have never said that we should die a physical death....i too believe that jeete jee marna hai (means deh-bhan chodna hai)....and for that if you remember any other body (even corporeal prajapita), then you will never become karmatit....one can become 100% karmatit farishta(jeete jee marna) only by remembering avaykt brahma ie Mama ( which you also believe is narrating Vanis )

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 14 May 2010

new knowledge wrote: I think that a physical body is essential for a spiritual seaker (Purusharthi) for his spiritual study during the process of formation of the Rosary; but after the completion of his spiritual study i.e., after the formation of the Rosary, a physical body is not necessary at all to enjoy the fruits or benifits of the spiritual study i.e., to enjoy the Unlimited Bliss in the Supreme Heaven i.e., Paramdham - the Final Destination.
Very-rightly said and very well expressed.

Advance knowledge teaches: that we all will go to heaven with this physical body.... advance knowledge never teaches about the subtle body(anth-vahak sharir mentioned in Vanis) and that is what is causing confusion and ambiguity and directionless purusharth in Advance Party.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 14 May 2010

new knowledge wrote: Dear Brother sanjeev, I think that a physical body is essential for a spiritual seaker (Purusharthi) for his spiritual study during the process of formation of the Rosary; but after the completion of his spiritual study i.e., after the formation of the Rosary, a physical body is not necessary at all to enjoy the fruits or benifits of the spiritual study i.e., to enjoy the Unlimited Bliss in the Supreme Heaven i.e., Paramdham - the Final Destination.
Does that mean that we should kill the physical body. It dies it's own death. No problem if it goes and no problem even if it remains.
At such a stage it is just for service. And such a person alone is athak sevadhari. "Sada" (in English?) is the adjective used for such a person. Sada santusht, Sada kalyankari, Sada Nirvighna ...
:neutral:
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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 14 May 2010

shivsena wrote: yes---very true.....so how does one become permanent resident of avaykt vatan !!!!!!!... by remembering corporeal prajapita or by remembering no 1 shivshakti (avaykt Brahma ie Mama)
In Murlis nowhere is said to remember Prajapita according to my knowledge. There is mixing of two different things. Prajapita is to be understood so as to understand ShivBaba. And not remembered.
No doubt ShivBaba has to be remembered. But the step one is to be soul consious and then remember ShivBaba. "Apne ko atma samajh Baap ko Yaad karo". When we become soul conscious just a thought will connect us with our eternal Father. Infact it is said that "Atma abhimani hai toh Baap saath hai hee." And only in such stage we can understand Murlis correctly. And only by being soul conscious we can do actual service and also can inculcate divine virtues in true sense without hypocrisy.
So my purusharth is primarily to be soul conscious. Rest all i.e., Yoga, gnyaan, dharana and seva follows.
shivsena wrote: I have never said that we should die a physical death....i too believe that jeete jee marna hai (means deh-bhan chodna hai)....and for that if you remember any other body (even corporeal prajapita), then you will never become karmatit....one can become 100% karmatit farishta(jeete jee marna) only by remembering avaykt Brahma ie Mama ( which you also believe is narrating Vanis ).
As answered above, I think remembering anyone else is itself wrong. Remembering "I" and becoming "I" is our Purusharth. This is "The eligibility" for studying the four subjects. If not all our understanding of Murlis turn out to be wrong. All our connections turn out to be cross connections- dhoondhana tha Baap ko dhoondha Bhai ko. All our divine virtues turn out to be just hypocrisy. And all our service turn out to be just selfish work.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 14 May 2010

Sach_Khand wrote: As answered above, I think remembering anyone else is itself wrong. Remembering "I" and becoming "I" is our Purusharth. This is "The eligibility" for studying the four subjects. If not all our understanding of Murlis turn out to be wrong.
Yes---first knowing this 'i' and then remembering the Father is our purusharth and that riddle of 'i' is still not solved even after 73 years.....and after studying the Murlis i feel that 'i' is not bindi but it is a spiritual energy of light and might (but just represented on paper as bindi)...and to know this spiritual body of light and might, a deep study of Murlis and Vanis is very essential.
"dhoondhana tha Baap ko dhoondha Bhai ko". Sanjeev.
This statement of avaykt Vani should be read and re-read by every pbk several times as it applies perfectly on advance knowledge.....all PBKs came to advance knowledge searching the Father but they found Bada Bhai Krishna who is narrating Krishna ki Gita and the real Father and his 108 children are still gupt ("Bap bhi gupt, bacche bhi gupt, Gyan bhi gupt aur unka purusharth bhi gupt")

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 17 May 2010

Murli dt. 19.4.85, pg. 2:
"Aise naheen sirf Paramatma ko naheen jaanate. Atma ko bhee naheen jaanate. Atma ko jaan jaaye toh Paramatma ko phat se jaan jaaein. Bachha apne ko jaane aur Baap ko na jaane toh chal kaise sake."

Murli dt. 1.6.85, pg. 1:
"Real Love Baap se tab ho jab apne ko atma samjhein."
:neutral:
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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 19 May 2010

Sach_Khand wrote:Murli dt. 19.4.85, pg. 2:
"Aise naheen sirf Paramatma ko naheen jaanate. Atma ko bhee naheen jaanate. Atma ko jaan jaaye toh Paramatma ko phat se jaan jaaein. Bachha apne ko jaane aur Baap ko na jaane toh chal kaise sake."
Murli dt. 1.6.85, pg. 1:
"Real Love Baap se tab ho jab apne ko atma samjhein."
Sanjeev.
So the logical conclusion from the above two points is that since none of us(bk or pbk) has become atma at present (we are all jeev-atmas ie. soul+body combined), we have not yet identified the Father Paramatma and cannot have love for HIM.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by Sach_Khand » 20 May 2010

shivsena wrote: So the logical conclusion from the above two points is that since none of us(BK or PBK) has become atma at present (we are all jeev-atmas ie. soul+body combined), we have not yet identified the Father Paramatma and cannot have love for HIM.
You are making wrong interpretation of the point.
Please read it once again carefully.
Murli dt. 19.4.85, pg. 2:
"Aise naheen sirf Paramatma ko naheen jaanate. Atma ko bhee naheen jaanate. Atma ko jaan jaaye toh Paramatma ko phat se jaan jaaein. Bachha apne ko jaane aur Baap ko na jaane toh chal kaise sake."
It is not said to become atma from jeevatma like your interpretation i.e.,
jeev-atmas ie. soul+body does not mean that to become atma the formula is,
"jeev-atmas ( soul+body )" minus "jeev" = "Atma"
meaning, "living human being" minus "human body" = soul. NO

It is said that atma ko nahee jaanate meaning do not understand soul. It is not said about leaving body and becoming a soul without body. It is said about understanding soul while being a human being i.e., jeevatma. And only when a person understands soul i.e., the real "I" which is imperishable then he/she becomes conscious about oneself. And in turn he/she understands The Supreme Soul too.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Corporeal and subtle body

Post by shivsena » 20 May 2010

Sach_Khand wrote: It is not said about leaving body and becoming a soul without body. And only when a person understands soul i.e., the real "I" which is imperishable then he/she becomes conscious about oneself. And in turn he/she understands The Supreme Soul too.
Sanjeev.
It has been categorically said in Vanis that "aage chalkar Yeh 'deh'(body) aur 'dehi'(soul) dono alag alag nazar aayenge"....so what is this "dehi" ????... is it bindi soul or is it the spiritual body of light and might, which will be seen different from the physical body (just as they show in movies...a subtle body of light seperating from the physical body.)

shivsena.

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