Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

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Roy
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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 12 Sep 2011

Thank you for the update Arjun Bhai; this news is most encouraging!

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 12 Sep 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:Belief is not enough, it is not even good. Only knowledge is worth anything. Denial, if not dangerous, is contrary to spiritual evolution.
I haven't denied anything imo; i have merely expressed an opinion, based on my understanding of advance knowledge, that makes me believe, that these allegations have no foundation. If it comes to light that they do, i will seek to understand why this practise has been necessary. But i would have to ask, as to how these opinions concerning this matter have arisen in the first place? Did the PBK you spoke to, have any proof to back up his statement; or was he merely passing on his own opinion, or that of others, whom he has come into contact with? Is there any concrete evidence concerning this matter, or is it all merely speculation, that has become folklore? Has Baba Dixit ever been asked directly about this matter?

I don't feel there is anything to deny here; i was merely presenting a view, that i feel is more likely, to be the truth of the matter. If there is concrete evidence that i am wrong in my belief, then of course, i will have to address this, if and when it presents itself. I am not going to say black is white, when it is obvious, that this is not the case. That would be dangerous denial. But as far as i can tell; the allegations concerning this matter, appear to be based on opinion, not hard evidence. So personally; i feel no compulsion to pursue this matter, at this time.

Roy

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Sep 2011

Denial is a noun, not a verb. Correct, you did not do it; you are in it.

Again, you fall back onto Bhakti.

Belief ... not knowledge.

You know which path to take.

Don't be fearful.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 12 Sep 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:Denial is a noun, not a verb. Correct, you did not do it; you are in it.
Dear fluffy Bhai

As far as i can see, you have presented this forum with nothing but hearsay regarding this matter. Simply one soul's opinion that they presented you with. Therefore, i have nothing to deny, or be in denial about. That soul has a right to his opinion regarding what he reads in the Murli, i have mine. There is no consensus in the PBK family regarding this, as far as I am aware. Some souls believe Baba Dixit indulges in these paractises, some simply say they don't know, and others, do not believe this to be the case. I fall into the latter category, at this time.

However; if as with the case with Dada Lekhraj's birth date; you, or someone else, brings concrete proof to the table that this practise, has or does go on; then i will definately have to sit up and take notice.

I am not afraid of the truth; but i do fear getting caught up in groundless gossip, that i feel may have arisen, from a simple misunderstanding of certain points, that are contained in the Murli.

Roy

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by arjun » 12 Sep 2011

Om Shanti. One of the issues raised by the media and different gangs to defame AIVV's Farrukhabad center is that vehicles depart from the ashram after 2 AM. They quote the neighbours of the Ashram to prove this. They have imagined that girls are supplied to the ashram for flesh trade. This is why they think that vehicles come out of the ashram after 2 AM.

From a layman's point of view they have every right to make such assumptions. But we as PBKs know that these vehicles depart after 2 or 3 AM just to transport people and materials from one mini-Madhubans of AIVV to the other mini-Madhubans situated in the neighbouring states. ShivBaba always thinks of saving Yagya money in any way possible. So, when the Brahmins have been directed in the Murlis to wake up at 2 AM to remember ShivBaba, why cannot they venture out to do Godly service (in the form of transportation of goods and people) at that hour to save petrol as the roads would be comparatively free at that time and the dust and pollution would also be less. Moreover, instead of sitting in remembrance at ashram, the PBKs driving the vehicle or sitting in the vehicle can remember ShivBaba in that vehicle. So, this idea is good both from BK/PBK point of view but also from the point of view of saving precious money and fuel. But instead of verifying the facts, the media (instigated by some powers) chose to present its own negative assumptions to defame the AIVV. And the public accepts blindly whatever untruth it is fed by the biased media.

So, it's all part of the drama.

OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 12 Sep 2011

Thank you for this further information Arjun Bhai.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Sep 2011

No Gyani individual has the right to an opinion. Subjective opinions by definitions are manmat.

You should not worry Roy. Coming from a BK frame of mind, you might prefer to remain in denial about this right now but when the time is right your way of thinking, and the significance is explained to you, you will adopt quickly to the new information.

It's India ... and despite all the filth, impurity and abuse, superficially they are still stuck in the Victorian era, especially when it comes to talking about sex. That's why they hated Rajneesh so much ... because he dared speak to openly about sex and attempted to remove people's hangups towards it.

As for the 2am runs ... I would still suspect that someone put into the minds of others such ideas on the basis of the old reports.

As for Lekhraj Kirpalani date of birth, the best evidence we have is the copy of the court papers (Lekhraj Khubchad Kripalani was aged 54 in 1938 - date of birth 1885). Given how high profile a case he and it was, the probability of them lying is very low ... especially as they had no reason to, nor would have gained from, doing so.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Sach_Khand » 13 Sep 2011

fluffy bunny wrote: It's India ... and despite all the filth, impurity and abuse, superficially they are still stuck in the Victorian era, especially when it comes to talking about sex. That's why they hated Rajneesh so much ...
I agree with it. But it has changed a lot now as compared to those times. But in BK and it's splinter groups, it seems it still remains same. Probably because they have no doubt regarding the sin assosciated with sex and totallly accept that sex has no other reason but to sin. Personally I feel that sex is not sin in itself but is the outcome or the result of deeds of sin as a result of which the pure emotions of Love get vicious and get expressed as sexual urge.
And importance of this topic getting clarified or explained is seen in the replies we have been getting in this forum. I have written some very important views about other points of knowledge in a couple of posts few days back. But there is no response to those views. But this issue is taking much attention.
fluffy bunny wrote: As for Lekhraj Kirpalani date of birth, the best evidence we have is the copy of the court papers (Lekhraj Khubchad Kripalani was aged 54 in 1938 - date of birth 1885). Given how high profile a case he and it was, the probability of them lying is very low ... especially as they had no reason to, nor would have gained from, doing so.
Is it possible to give the complete date of birth (day, month and year) based on the evidence at hand?

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 13 Sep 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:No Gyani individual has the right to an opinion. Subjective opinions by definitions are manmat.
I think this may be a tad idealistic Bhai, because everything i say on this forum is my opinion(manmat), not Shrimat; and should be treated as such! This is why we are taught in Gyan, that only things said directly by ShivBaba are Shrimat, everything else is subject to a certain amount of mixing(depending upon the stage of the soul in question), and is manmat, to a lesser or greater degree. Only a perfect incorporeal being, is capable of giving Shrimat, or totally objective truth. I am a long way from achieving this stage; so unless i am quoting Baba's Murli word for word, exactly as He stated it; i am to some extent, guilty of manmat. Thus all we can do until we achieve perfection; is to try and keep our manmat, to a minimum.

Therefore; unless the PBK who spoke to you about this matter, saw these acts with his own eyes; and this can be corroborated, by at least one more, totally trustworthy soul; i believe the information you received from him was manmat; as opposed to the manmat i have put forward as an alternative. Whose manmat is nearest to absolute truth, is yet to be established, as far as i know.

Roy

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 14 Sep 2011

Dear fluffy Bhai

I have been looking into this subject a little further, and have come across this Murli clarification, that i wish to share part of with you....

VCD 216, Clarified on 21.04.07, Clarification of Murli dated 30.5.66, Shikalahasti, Audio Cassette No. 697

"Who are combined? Shiv-Shankar Bholeynaath. Shiv is beyond the cycle of birth and death. He does not enter into the cycle of birth and death
at all. And Shankar is shown in this world itself. It is said that – He is Amogh Veerya (One whose vigour never gets discharged). He is Amar (immortal).
He never dies even while living in this world. What does it mean? It means that the soul of Shankar, the soul of Ram resides in this world itself. And it
plays the role of a hero for many births – in the Golden Age as well as in the Silver Age, in the Copper Age as well as in the Iron Age. Yes, just as the
entire world meets downfall, similarly that soul also meets downfall; but there is the difference between the pace of his downfall and the pace of the
downfall of other souls. Why is there a difference? It is because the extent to which he remembered Father Shiv; the other souls are unable to remember
or charge their batteries to that extent. This soul is a battery, isn’t it? While taking births since the Golden Age, while experiencing downfall,
these souls, which were 16 celestial degrees complete in the Golden Age and now they have become without any celestial degrees. All the energy
has been discharged. So among those battery-like souls, which get discharged, the soul of Shankar, because of being more powerful, because of
being a big battery does not get discharged completely.
But in the last birth, as soon as the Supreme Soul Shiv enters, it gets completely
discharged."


In the same clarification Murli, Baba goes on to say....

"For e.g. in the path of devotion Gurus say – Arey, keep making efforts for many births. In one or the other birth, you will certainly become
a deity. Oh, what is this? Arey, we are studying medicine (a doctor’s course) here; if someone studies medicine here and if someone tells him – you study
medicine here, and we will make you a doctor, a surgeon in the next birth. So, will anyone get ready to become? Nobody will get ready. Well, this
is a practical teaching of God. He is teaching such a path, by following which you will become oordhwareta (the one whose vigour rises from the
lowermost level to the highest level). Oordhwareta means – while enjoying physical pleasure, the vigour of a woman and a man, which gets reduced
below (i.e. through the reproductive organs) will start rising towards the forehead. Such a person is called – Amoghveerya. What is famous about
Shankarji? He was Amoghveerya. His veerya (vigour) never used to get discharged. It was a matter of that time, when Shiv entered him."


So i feel this Murli clearly indicates, we are talking about a spiritual vigour(or power) of the soul, that remains stronger in Shankar(Baba Dixit), because he is the most powerful(ly charged) soul; and this stage was aquired, after Father Shiv entered him(Shankar) in 1976. Although there is a connection between sexual practise(body conscious lust) and loss of vigour, through the lustful actions of the Copper and Iron Ages; it is the process of soul consciousness and purity, that reverses this trend, in the effort maker souls(Brahmins who become oordhwareta) of the Confluence Age.

On a different note but contained in the same Murli is this passage, that you may also be interested in looking at....

"So similarly, in 1976 the Supreme Soul Father reenters into the same personality whom he had entered in the beginning of the Yagya. That is why the third eye is shown on the forehead of Shankar. Shivnetra (eye of Shiv) is not shown on the forehead of Brahma. Moreover, a moon is shown on the
forehead. Is a full moon shown or is an incomplete moon shown? An incomplete moon is shown. So that incomplete moon is the moon of knowledge,
Brahma (gyaan chandrama Brahma). Insect-like paingiving souls also flourished in the lap of the mother, under the guidance of the moon of knowledge,
Brahma [Gyan Chandrama Brahma]. Even today, they are getting sustenance in the Brahmakumari Ashrams. They are forcibly extracting money from
people. Just as the Muslims, what did they do? They attacked the residents of Bharat and forcibly took away all the money from houses, looted
away all the wealth from the temples. So similarly, without caring for the children of the innocent seekers of knowledge, they take everything into their
grasp: all their jewellery, all their money from the banks and houses, and by making them sell all their property."


Roy

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by satyaprakash » 15 Sep 2011

The case in Farukkabad is only a natural consequence of policies followed by Virendra Dev Dixit Baba. To increase his influence he has encourage minor girls to be brought into so many mini-madhubans (mini-jails!).
But I feel that these may not really indicate that brothels were run in these places.That can be concluded only after proper investigation.
Virendra Dev Dixit Baba has some fancy ideas like he will not die or he will be the last person to die etc which attract some gullible women to his fold. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that he is a fraud will come out much before his sure death and these are indications.
He runs a laundry for the psychology (brain washing) to satisfy his own ego and he can only cause destruction of many families.
It is a surprise that in this thread, very few are supporting him. Arjun is the official supporter. Fluffy is the one who raised this issue. Roy, as usual
will write on every subject without any point to convey. Roy need not be given any importance as he conveys nothing! Who else is left in this thread?
Young girls are not going to get Gnan by shutting them up in these mini-jails. Let them be under the guidance of their parents, learn and play
and grow up naturally. When they are old enough >18, they can decide what they want to do.
BKs is equally weak in its teachings and why are you always blaming them for everything? Face the truth even if you do not like it!
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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by arjun » 15 Sep 2011

satyaprakash wrote:The case in Farukkabad is only a natural consequence of policies followed by Veerendra Dev Dixit Baba. To increase his influence he has encourage minor girls to be brought into so many mini-madhubans (mini-jails!).
If you feel the mini-Madhubans are mini-jails you are welcome to visit the court of City Magistrate, Fatehgarh, Farrukhabad and see the oral and written statements submitted by the sisters (minor and major) and their parents declaring that they have come there voluntarily and are living there happily. And if you do not believe those legal statements, you can come and talk to some of the sisters themselves. If a brothel was being run at those mini-madhubans, the girls should be too eager to be freed. But none wishes to be freed from this so-called jail. So, is it a jail or a palace (without luxurious facilities like the BKWSU or other religious places which thrive on begging and seeking and some even perhaps on looting).

One of my PBK friends who also goes to a local BK center incognito called me up recently and was very worried that the BKs were pressurising him to donate ten thousand rupees for the megaprogramme that they are planning in the city next month. The programmes organized by extracting money from gullible followers in such manner would obviously appear very grand and luxurious to the general public, but you can imagine the harm that they are causing to individual members (especially those from the lower or middle classes).

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Sep 2011

Thank you Satya. I don't think badly of Roy. I think he is sort of trapped or paralysed by BK style "positive thinking", burying his head in photocopies and not able to face the awkward realities.

Yes, I would agree with an "18 years old" rule ... unless, of course, the children were being saved from an even worse situation. In this case, I am sure there is nothing going on and suspect it is just a ridiculous waste of time and another stitch up.

The saddest thing is that terrible things are going on in India with young teenage children from the age of 10, 11, 12 being taken as ritual prostitutes or temple sex slaves ... the "devadasi" ... for as little as 10 or 20 rupees. It is made worse by the taboos around discussing sex and the spread of AIDs. Sold by their families, women are just as involved in trafficking and prostituting young girls not just men. The root, of course, is not religion but poverty and caste.

It might be funny for me to write it but this is one place where I would support the Brahma Kumaris and the Brahma Kumari way of life ... IF ... they were to take these girls in and offer them sanctuary from sexual exploitation. But they don't, the BKs are not interested in true social upliftment of others, only social climbing.

One question, are the BKs in India just as body-conscious, judgemental and caste bound in mentality when it comes to dealing with the lower classes and such girls? Do they take lower caste girls or just middle classes able to afford to buy into their wealthy religion?

In a way, all the BKs do is exploit the same system but at a slightly higher level. They still marry young girls off to their god spirit and marrying them into a life of unpaid slavery. It might be a nicer, non-sexual slavery and a liberation from the absolute ignorances of Hinduism ... but it is still slavery.

I will always remember the way the BKWSU representative described their habit of demanding dowries from young surrendering kumaris ... it was to stop the poor "dumping" their daughters.

To me that sounds like the Brahma Kumaris still think of them as rubbish. I can imagine they think ... "it's their karma".

It is thought there are 450,000 women and girls trapped in this system, what can be done? The only think that is unlimited in India is poverty and corruption.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Sach_Khand » 15 Sep 2011

fluffy bunny wrote: The saddest thing is that terrible things are going on in India with young teenage children from the age of 10, 11, 12 being taken as ritual prostitutes or temple sex slaves ... the "devadasi" ... for as little as 10 or 20 rupees. It is made worse by the taboos around discussing sex and the spread of AIDs. Sold by their families, women are just as involved in trafficking and prostituting young girls not just men. The root, of course, is not religion but poverty and caste.
...
It is thought there are 450,000 women and girls trapped in this system, what can be done? The only think that is unlimited in India is poverty and corruption.
Dear Fluffy,
I have seen in some of your posts about your attitude towards India and it's culture and I fell that it is in bad taste .

Although this is a forum for discussing BK knowledge you try to make it general and to use it to demean India and it's culture. And I oppose such attitude of yours.

Is it due to your inferiority complex that makes you react in such a way?

Just see around the world and know what all is happenning. I remember how you made fun of Indian poverty and written about how BKs waste money by spending on costly things (bras, I suppose) that are used for the present Chariot of Bap-Dada in Madhuban. And now see what is the financial state in europe and america. Greece is bankrupt, Italy too is in the same path, american economy is about to go in another recession, and the recent looting in queen's land birmingham and nearby areas. I read how even a millionaire lady rushed to loot a shop. In the name of democracy, europe and america are using their muscle power to loot the oil and other natural resources around the globe. No need to say how the queen's land and other europeans have been looting african nations for diamonds untill recently. Ther is even a film based on this which I recently saw.

Prostitution is legal in Gemany and Australia. Government runs even on the revenue of their taxes. I read how a virgin who sold out her virginity on the net had to pay most of her income as tax to the government.

Please do not use this forum to vent out your jealousy regarding all and anything about India.
Bharat was, is and always remains Great. Children may try to demean Bharat, but if your try to spit seeing above, the dirt will fall on your own face.

Hope you will understand your position and behave accordingly.

I agree that there are many problems in India. But they shall be resolved. And in Murlis it is said that people do not know how BKs are the ones who serve Bharat the most.

Rabindranath Tagore has said that if you want to understand India read Vivekanand. Try it.
And when some european followers of Vivekanand asked him how they can help him, the answer given by Vivekanand was, "LOVE India (Bharat)".

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot?

Post by Roy » 15 Sep 2011

satyaprakash wrote:Young girls are not going to get Gyan by shutting them up in these mini-jails. Let them be under the guidance of their parents, learn and play and grow up naturally. When they are old enough 18, they can decide what they want to do.
This is a decision for their parents to make of course, just as many parents place their children in faith schools. Not only that... with such a short time left in the drama to make spiritual effort; it would be too late for these young people, by the time they are 18.
fluffy bunny wrote:I don't think badly of Roy.
Thanks Bhai, i don't think badly of you either! :D
fluffy bunny wrote: I think he is sort of trapped or paralysed by BK style "positive thinking", burying his head in photocopies and not able to face the awkward realities.
By burying my head in photocopies, do you mean Murlis?
fluffy bunny wrote:The saddest thing is that terrible things are going on in India with young teenage children from the age of 10, 11, 12 being taken as ritual prostitutes or temple sex slaves ... the "devadasi" ... for as little as 10 or 20 rupees. It is made worse by the taboos around discussing sex and the spread of AIDs. Sold by their families, women are just as involved in trafficking and prostituting young girls not just men. The root, of course, is not religion but poverty and caste.
Who could not feel saddened by the state of the world, and the real suffering of so many. However; does anyone on this forum truly believe, that there is any way the world is going to be able to resolve its own issues at this time; with the rate of increasing population, pollution, corruption, economic collapse, poverty, starvation, climate change, man's hate for his fellow man, huge stock piles of nuclear weapons just waiting to be released, etc.etc.etc. Things are not getting better on any level; industrial growth in places like India and China, is just a plaster on a festering wound; because in reality, it is only adding to further pollution, and raping the earth of its ever decreasing resources. The growing global economic world we live in, is totally unsustainable in the long term; and the gap between rich and poor will continue to grow, until the bubble finally burts; the signs of which we are witnessing at the present time of course. The fat cats get greedier and greedier, and care not for the people who they employ, or the way they make their next few billion, and its effect upon the planet or its communities; all they see is dollar signs before their eyes.

This world is a "jungle of thorns" to quote ShivBaba; my definition wouldn't be quite so complimentary. If people choose not to see this with absolute clarity, that is their business. But to say I am burying my head in the sand, because i acknowledge all of this, and realise only One Being on this planet, makes any sense of it all; well, what more can i say, but good luck to you brothers, on your individual paths.

Roy

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