Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

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Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 02 Oct 2011

Satya's note: This group of BK/PBK are not exposed to traditional views of Hindus. They are mostly unaware of the cultural richness of India. They go by some silly stories in Puranas and find fault with Hinduism- so that their own cults are justified. Here is a higher view of Hinduism-Brahman practices from a very educated and cultured person. This article is especially important for westerners to understand the richness of Indian culture and heritage. The BK/PBK cults may not agree with the views expressed here, but at least let them know the views. Best wishes and patient reading. This article is from another group. This is only for the sake of information.
Satya.


*IMPORTANCE OF BRAHMANISM IN SOCIETY*

Dr Thirumala Raya Halemane, 13 Eagles Pass, Princeton, NJ 08540

*Introduction:*
In recent years, Brahmins have been the victims of negative, maligned publicity and unjustified accusations. Perhaps, much of this maligning is
done by some among the Brahmins themselves, blaming the Brahmanic traditions for all the ills, real and imagined, in Hindu society. There are also people
who blame the poverty of the Brahmin communities on their clinging to their Brahmanic practices and traditions, and their inability or refusal to become
like others. These critics are poor-thinking, ill-advised, mis-educated, confused and mis-guided people, even when otherwise successful in the
outside world, who are causing damage not just to Brahmins, but to the entire civilized fabric of the world.

Much of the current problems of Hindu society and India have their origins, not with Brahminism, but with the negative impacts and reactive adjustments
that Hindu society had to make for survival under a thousand years of hostile foreign rulers - the terrorist Islamic invasions, beheadings and
forced conversions, followed by the tyranny and anti-Hindu bias of Muslim rulers, and then the economic and mental subjugations by the British
colonial rulers. In fact, the existence of Brahminism within Hindu society made it impossible for those hostile forces to destroy Sanatana Dharma and
Hindu culture, so they could not accomplish in India what they had achieved in other places - that is the wiping out of the existing culture, and its
replacement with their own. However, we focus mostly on a discussion of Brahminism on its own merits in this article, we do not attempt a study of
historical impacts nor do we aim at a comparative study here. Brahminism is a very sensitive topic, and there is a lot of confusion and incomplete
understanding to be cleared. We use all three words - Brahmins, Brahmins, and Brahmanas, considering them as equivalent, but one may prefer to use the
second and third words, as they are closer to the original.

*Maligning Brahmanism Causes Damage:*
Often, it is the desire for what they think is the politically correct and fashionable opinion, that makes people incorporate anti-Brahman positions in
their views, writings and utterings. They may think it is a very harmless road to take, as these critics are rarely opposed or challenged in public.
Brahmins do not normally resort to any loud complaints, strikes or rallies. But the damage done by these maligning critics is huge, because it grows
slowly like a cancer, as more people read it and repeat it, and finally an environment is created which begins to permanently damage continuation of
Brahman heritage.

*Generation To Generation Knowledge Transfer:*
In any society, there have to be mechanisms to transfer knowledge from one generation to the next. And knowledge is of various kinds - trade or
professional skills, culture, spirituality, art, music, heritage, history, philosophy, virtues, values, traditional practices - everything you can
think of, and also many things you do not directly think of, but actually learn by living in that society - for example attitudes, sensitivities,
behaviors, responsibilities. Of course, not all knowledge can be written in books and transmitted. In reality, even knowledge of the hard sciences and
engineering, are transmitted today, in the colleges and companies, from one generation to the next, directly from person to persons. The books serve as
aides for temporary, even when very long, storage before transmission. So, we should not be surprised about, or look down upon, our heritage of oral
transmission of the vedas, mantras and other knowledge, over thousands of years, with only some help from written manuscripts.

The living knowledges are always orally transmitted from person to person, every day, in the classrooms, in the laboratories, in the companies, in the
market place, in the public. The storage media, like palm leaves, books and tapes are learning aides. When people fail to transfer any knowledge orally,
that knowledge is in a dying mode. After that, it would be lucky for the next generations if that knowledge was written and preserved in some form,
otherwise, it will be lost forever, as if it was never known. If something is valuable and important, it should be taught to the next generation, it
should be memorized, and it should be written down.

*Fully Learning Involves Living With Teacher*:
In order to learn every nuance and every detail possible of any profession, the student has to associate very closely with the leading practitioners of
that profession, it is not enough to just learn in the classroom - Take for example medical practice, it is a 24/7 profession, not just a 9 to 5
phenomenon. The aspiring student has to learn to live the life of a doctor or surgeon as a 24 hours a day, 7 days a week profession, that is as his or
her life. The same is actually true of a soldier's profession, and in general true of every profession, although some professions by nature may be
more intensely so than others. That's why living in a gurukula with the teacher was an opportunity for a better education than if you could just
visit the school during the day. Of course, in the olden days when transport and communications were not as easy as it is today, students had to walk
very long distances to reach noted places of learning and stay there for years, until they finished their studies, and graduated.

*No Discrimination and Everybody Is Equal:*
All individuals are born equal before the law and as citizens of the nation (or of the world, for that matter) everybody enjoys the same fundamental
rights and have the same fundamental obligations and responsibilities. Racism, sexism, discrimination, bias and untouchability are not supported by
Dharma. Contrary to the arguments many people make, true Brahminism has nothing to do with promoting social bias or untouchability. In fact, the
opposite is the case, because Brahminism promotes non-aggressive, compassionate satvik behavior. And, shastrically, crimes and bad behavior
by Brahmins are expected to be punished more severly compared to a non-Brahmana with the same crime.
* *
Social structure has many levels, in every society, and people belong to groups of different kinds and different breadth and vastness. There are
groups and subgroups, subgroups within subgroups. There are exclusive groups and inclusive groups. This is so in every society, and that is unavoidable.
No form of social structure, whether in the west or in the east has been able to make society as one uniform ocean, because it is not possible. If
you smooth out the wrinkles in one place, other wrinkles will appear in another place. All individuals, mathematically, cannot be equal - their
characters, physical, mental, spiritual attributes are different, capacities for learning and performing are not the same, their histories are not
identical. Society is very complex at any point in time.

We want to take into account the differences, and yet, consider the people as equally deserving in other respects, and provide opportunities based on
their capabilities, merits, performances, accomplishments etc. Children inherit some things (genes, family heritage and wealth, parental care etc)
and learn, work for, and earn, the rest. And Brahmanism does this with a sympathetic, satvik attitude, and not a cut-throat, over-competitive,
survival-of-the-fittest philosophy.

Knowledge is open to all, and any one can learn the vedas, mantras or the priestly profession, or any of the other professions. The children of a
doctor or a farmer are better exposed to their particular profession, and are able to pick up a lot of knowledge at home, same is true with a
carpenter or a priest or any other profession. But it was possible (if strongly desired) to change professions, in the past, and is even easier to
do so now with the much easier access, especially in cities, and for people with money, to different lines of work or profession or livelihood. Not
everybody wants to be (or can be) a surgeon or lawyer even if it may be more lucrative to do so. In the past, family inherited occupations were common in
all societies, including India.

There is no waiting list for people to learn vedas or to become priests, despite the fact that the number of vedic teachers may be very limited. It
is not a lucrative field. Those who desire to be wealthy or powerful are not likely to want to learn vedas, Sanskrit, shastras etc. To be a priest is
more a path of suffering and sacrifice, and not one of luxury or glorification. But, non-Brahmins also do become pundits, swamis, priests,
experts in vedas and shastras, and that should be encouraged. Standing for equal rights and no discrimination in the larger society does not go against
Brahmanism.

*Heritage Is Important:*
Culturally, of course, any group of people have a right to study, inculcate and practise their cultural heritage, whether it is learning the mantras,
doing poojas, chanting the vedas, telling puranic stories, discussing the upanishads. Brahmanas have a right (and responsibility) to learn their
heritage and pass it on to the next generation. It is very important, just like for any other community. If it is not done, the children when they grow
up are more likely to feel lost and confused, and may even be taken advantage of by other creeds and cults trying to enlist them.

The religious rules and ritual purity needs, for poojas, for other ceremonies, and in temples, are sometimes disrespected and ridiculed by
critics. These rules are there mainly for their effect - to ensure the feeling of sanctity and holiness, and to enhance the mental, psychological,
and spiritual value of such ceremonies. Rules, protocol, rituals, ceremonial discipline exist in all walks of life - in civil, judicial, political,
religious, and social life - in the Eastern cultures and in the Western cultures, not just in Hindu religion. Morever, this is also true of other
professions - for example, not everybody is allowed into the operation theater in a hospital or into a specialized laboratory. Doctors who go into
the surgery room have to follow rules about washing hands, wearing appropriate clothes etc. Many government, military, judicial and diplomatic
officials have to follow protocol, wear uniforms or special garbs and wigs, observe ceremonial discipline, and adhere to traditions. A Brahman priest is
like a spiritual surgeon, and is expected to follow the rules of the profession. However, as in any other field, it is always a good idea to
periodically re-examine the rules, remove unnecessary restrictions, make things as inclusive and accessible as possible for all people, without
diluting the sanctity, and keeping in mind the need for fostering and retaining a healthy respect for tradition.

*Brahmanism, Satvik And Other Gunas:*
Brahminism involves satvik guna or satvik character. The satvik character is enshrined in Brahmanism. Satvik character is neither aggressive nor timid.
It is neither about being aloof nor about being boisterous. It is peaceful, truthful and dignified but not arrogant. It has a kind of quiet,
compassionate assertiveness to it, but it is not egotistical. It does not seek to lift up the ego, instead seeks to remove it when possible. It does
not seek to indulge in riches and power, instead it glorifies seeking knowledge and spiritual wisdom while supporting and continuing family
activities. There are other gunas, whose characteristics are different.

However, gunas cannot be taught properly and completely by just lecturing on them in the classroom or writing about them in books. In order to properly
and completely transmit them from one generation to the next, children have to learn them from their parents, teachers, relatives, friends and others.
The society has to know it today as a desirable virtue and inculcate it into younger generations. This is possible if it exists in at least a section of
society, and has the respect of the rest of society. What happens to this guna if society undergoes bad times, like oppression, violence, turbulence,
revolt from external or internal causes? Will it survive?

The most delicate among the various gunas is the sthree guna, which includes the womanly and the motherly characters. This guna incorporates love and
self-sacrifice in its fundamental core. This is even more delicate than satvik character because, at times, in sthree guna, the assertiveness is
done in a way that sacrifices self-interest for the wellbeing of the loved ones.

The rajasik guna, from which also comes the quality of good leadership, and the tamasik guna, from which also comes the quality of hard work and good
craftsmanship, capture other attributes of a dharmic person' s character. There is also the rakshasik guna which ignores dharma, and elevates
aggressiveness, deception and selfishness. If taken to extremes, the rakshasik society could result in disrespected womanhood, where women are
treated mainly as sex objects, and, in perished or distorted Brahmanism where satvik character cannot survive. The other good values and virtues
will also then gradually decline. In general, every individual in today's society, is a combination of all the different gunas, he/she has picked them
up (all 5 gunas listed above) in different proportions based on their circumstances, upbringing, environments they were exposed to and are living
in. The need for survival and living in the midst of others in their specific environments shapes and hones their gunas to different degrees.

*Transmitting Satvik Guna Needs Brahmanism:*
Brahminism is important in society for the following fundamental reason - preservation of satvik character in society as a value to be cherished,
without which other virtues and values cannot flourish. For the nurturing and preservation of satvik character over long periods in society (and thus
the world) it has to be present and alive in society at least in a sub-group, call it the Brahmin community. In the absence of such a
self-sustaining Brahmanic sub-environment, hostile, aggressive and rakshaseeya environments will easily devour and destroy satviks.

*Can Brahminism Be By Profession And Not By Birth ?:*
Can Brahminism be by profession, instead of inherited by birth ? The preservation of satvik characteristics over the long run requires that
Brahmanism be inherited by birth, at least to the major part. But there have been exceptions. Sometimes exceptions may be necessary - for example, it may
be as a correction to long accumulated non-satvik arrogance within Brahman communities and/or as a recognition of a person's or group's spiritual
advancement. We may note that, almost always, every rule has exceptional situations, even though rarely.

However, satvik guna will not survive if Brahmin community does not accept membership by birth. Why so? What other alternatives exist? By profession?
If it is accepted as a community by profession, as in the medical or engineering or scientific fields, the problems of elitism, power, polish,
influence, position, sycophancy, corruption etc creep in, and these are the very opposite of satvik character, then it is almost impossible to get rid
of these problems. Then, true satvik behavior becomes the casualty, and it cannot be cultivated as a respected and desirable way. When that happens,
and very soon, the community will forget what satvik character truly is. Because of this, Brahminism is different from the other jathis (castes or
professions or qualities). The others can be propagated by profession (and need not be by birth, especially when teaching is done mostly in
schools/colleges, and not at home). The priestly profession can also be taught to anybody, and that's fine. When Brahminism is by birth, and is not
based on wealth or position or recognition or power or nearness to such, the satvik character flourishes and survives even in hostile surroundings. The
other professions will also absorb, by osmosis, the attitude of service to society through their professions, not just adopt a money-making attitude.

If Brahmanism is by profession, it will perhaps be taught in the classroom by expert teachers, who will then give grades and certificates to the more
deserving ones, there will perhaps be an association or society of Brahmins (much like the IEEE or APS or AMA), after some years or some generations,
the Brahmin profession will be engulfed with the same issues and problems as in any other profession, that of power and corruption, of influence and
arrogance, of sycophancy and vindictiveness. The satvik guna will get mixed up with power and position, and, influence and heirarchy, within the Brahmin
profession and association. The non-Brahmins will see nothing special in the character or guna of the Brahmins, it will be just another group of people
possessing some education and skills (which could be learnt by anybody). In other words, satvik guna will disappear. The remaining satviks will be
viewed as timid people by the rest of society for not being aggressive enough to go after their selfishness. Society will then become even more
cut-throat, deceptive, rakshasik. The aggressive will be seen as leader-like and fittest - compassion and other virtues will diminish, respect for women
will decline.

*Satvik Guna Preservation In Hostile Environments Needs Brahmanism By Birth:
*
Satvik behavior is desirable and is to be cherished for its own sake, and for providing the environment for all sorts of other virtues to survive
freely (including the quality of freedom, which everyone today recognizes as important). Also, when satvik guna disappears from society, there will be no
respect for womanhood. Womanly qualities are based on self-sacrifice - one's own interests are undermined for the welfare of the others. If the men's
culture does not respect satvik behavior, there will be no respect for womanly qualities either, the aggressive and rakshaseeya qualities will
rule, and women will be mainly sex objects and service providers, and, second class citizens.

Societal structure determines the what/how/when of transmission from one generation to the next - transmission of knowledge, skills, virtues,
culture, characteristics etc. Societies that are successful over very long periods, like Hindu society, are not based on blind respect and adulation
for power and aggressive behavior, but are based on truth and dharma. This involves recognition and respect for the roles of different human qualities
- satvik, rajasik, tamasik, and, of course, the most delicate are the womanly qualities.

It is not a question of up/down heirarchy or discrimination or privilege or wealth or even just the efficiency in the oral transmission of knowledge.
The question is really how to create a special environment where the best virtues and values will not get lost, but will get transmitted from one
generation to the next even when the surrounding larger society and the ruling structures/powers are not supportive and may even be hostile (as was
in India for the last 1000 years). The answer is Brahmanism. In the past, Indian rulers used to invite Brahmins to come and settle in their kingdoms.
Sanatana Dharma has survived because Brahminism was able to withstand both the British colonial rule and manipulations, and, the Islamic onslaughts and
terrorization before that. And the Indian non-Brahmana communities, knowing the importance of having Brahmana communities amidst them, and respecting
their satvik characteristics and priestly duties, supported the Brahmins strongly in withstanding those externally imposed hostile environments by
the colonial rulers and Islamic invaders and oppressive rulers.

*Hinduism Is The Common Heritage/Ancestry Of Indians Of All Faiths:*
There are some major shortcomings in India's school curricula - many desirable topics, like Yoga, shastras and sanskrit are not taught. This has
resulted in most children getting no opportunity to learn ancient Indian history and heritage, vedas, shlokas, shastras, sanskrit literature, Yoga
etc. Schools are where children go to learn these days, and that is where opportunities should exist for learning everything, some courses may be
compulsory, some optional, some may be during regular hours, others may be extra-curricular. But, it is important that all schools in India should
expose all the children to some amount of knowledge of ancient Indian heritage, including various shastric texts, while specialized courses can be
instituted in some schools as elective courses. This will improve the self-image of future generations of all Indians, and will bring about more
harmony between India's diverse communities and faiths. This common ancient heritage is the strongest force that binds together Indians of all faiths.

After all, if one goes back a thousand years, the ancestors of all Indians of all faiths were all Hindus and, since families who converted to other
faiths then, must have had relatives who did not convert, one can argue that today's Indians of other faiths have relatives among Hindus, some among
Brahmins. The teaching of ancient Indian heritage topics in schools is necessary for true national integration, and it will be appreciated by all,
if put in the right context.

*Ancient Heritage Education Needed For Self-Image And National Integration:*
The colleges and universities in India, also need to develop and enhance availability of the ethnic and religious studies field of learning, which
are now mostly absent. This is in contrast to American universities where almost every place has Christian, Hispanic, and Judaic studies courses,
concentrations and departments, and now Islamic, Chinese, Buddhist, and Hinduism courses are also being offered. In the US, political parties do not
get involved in what courses are offered in schools and colleges. The status in India is completely opposite - the maligning and misrepresenting of
ancient Indian heritage topics, and not providing students proper opportunities to learn these, and thus turning out educated youth with
distorted and stunted views of their own heritage, has continued to occur, despite India having been independent for more than 55 years.

And, Jyothishya or vedic astrology also needs to be viewed as a proper field of study, to be offered and taught appropriately, practitioners of this
field also deserving respect. As per shastras, a person is expected to follow his/her swadharma, not be blinded by horoscopes and astrological
predictions, and this attitude will get ingrained into a student's character when he/she is properly exposed to shastric education. Forecasting and
projecting exercises are done everyday in many fields, like business, economy, elections, stock markets, population, weather etc using polls,
sampling, statistical models, expert opinions, and other subjective and objective techniques. Jyothishya is an ancient discipline dealing with
planetary motions as well as forecasting, and is also worthy of respect.

People and students simply have to know the full story - literary, cultural, political, economic, social, religious and the rest, from ancient times to
the present, without distortions. One would have expected, in any newly independent country, a better attitude towards its own ancient heritage, and
in case of India this heritage is of gem quality, compares well with that of other nations and nothing to be ashamed of. The damaging and
inferiority-complexed current situation has to change for India to realize its full potential. There needs to be a better approach and more openness
and freedom in what courses, fields and opportunities are commonly offered and available for students to choose. When taught in schools, this ancient
history and heritage which is common to all its peoples, will strengthen their mutual bonds, will improve the self-image of all, and will lead to
better national integration and prosperity. It will serve the best interests of all communities, of all Indians, Hindu and non-Hindu.

*Only Brahmins Can Save Brahminism:*
It is only the Brahmana community that can, in the end, sustain and nurture Brahmanism. And they need to realize that the well-being of the whole
civilized society and of the world is hinged on the respect for, survival and well-being of the Brahmanic satviks. The non-Brahmin communities in
India have always supported true Brahmanism, and they will continue to do so in the future. The western cultures, in spite of the past long associations
with India, are just beginning to view India with a more open mind, and are slowly but surely, discovering the charm and magic of Sanatana Dharma and
the world's oldest civilization.

Another factor is the migration of Brahmanas in large numbers from villages to cities in India, and now also abroad in large numbers, to seek a better
living and more gainful occupations, where it may not be easy to practise or to educate their children in Brahmanism. And, since it is the more
intelligent and more capable ones that are going away, the society that is left behind, loses a lot more - it is like cutting off the best growths of a
tree every now and then, it is not allowed to have a good, natural growth or evolution, only stunted growth and stunted evolution or even decay is
possible, and when this continues over a long period, the results can be very poor evolution and decayed status of society. Some of these bad effects
can be overcome if unnecessary maligning and infusion of negativity can be avoided, and more sympathetic and mutually supportive attitudes are adopted.
Moreover, emigration abroad from India to the West and other countries can be viewed as an opportunity to show the virtues of Brahmanic qualities and
upbringing, and the benefits of satvik guna, to these societies outside India, not just as a challenge to Brahmanic survival. And, if the enhanced
respect travels back to their old communities in India, it infuses a renewed sense of rejuvenation, which is perhaps already happening to some extent.

*JAI HIND.*

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by sita » 02 Oct 2011

Occupation of brahmins is knowledge. Knowledge is not something material. Tradition is something good, but the same argument is here. There is variety with the brahmins. Each one is different than the other and they create disunity with their different interpretations. Generaliztion cannot be made. One is born a brahmin, it means whatever he does he will remain a brahmin and in this way he may put a bad name of the clan. On the opposite one can reap the benefits of the good name of the clan without doing any effort for it.

Because brahmin's occupation is knowledge they take birth through knowledge, but the most crusial point is what kind of knowledge. People had created scriptures, so the ability to create brahmins lies with people. You are not a brahmin, but I am God, read and teach this scripture. Brahmins are there if only Brahma, the form of God is there. Brahmins, without one God is just collection of varios different intellects - Ravan.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by sita » 02 Oct 2011

Occupation of brahmins is knowledge. Knowledge is not something material. Tradition is something good, but the same argument is here. There is variety with the brahmins. Each one is different than the other and they create disunity with their different interpretations. Generaliztion cannot be made. One is born a brahmin, it means whatever he does he will remain a brahmin and in this way he may put a bad name of the clan. On the opposite one can reap the benefits of the good name of the clan without doing any effort for it.

Because brahmin's occupation is knowledge they take birth through knowledge, but the most crusial point is what kind of knowledge. People had created scriptures, so the ability to create brahmins lies with people. You are not a brahmin, but I am God, read and teach this scripture. Brahmins are there if only Brahma, the form of God is there. Brahmins, without one God is just collection of varios different intellects - Ravan.

Satva is quality that should be there mostly in the mind. Although in behavior also, food etc, but one can follow all extarnal principles still have tamas in his mind. I mean a Brahmanism as repesantation of the quality of satva should mostly be related to the thinking, rather than any external principle.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 03 Oct 2011

sita wrote:they take birth through knowledge,
sita wrote:Brahmins are there if only Brahma, the form of God is there. Brahmins, without one God is just collection of varios different intellects - Ravan.
These phrases do not mean anything? Or is it meaningful to PBKs only?
sita wrote:Satva is quality that should be there mostly in the mind. Although in behavior also, food etc, but one can follow all extarnal principles still have tamas in his mind. I mean a Brahmanism as repesantation of the quality of satva should mostly be related to the thinking, rather than any external principle.
Body, mind and intellect all go together. You cannot have a meat eating wine drinking person to have a very pure satvic mind.

Please note that the essay is written by a person who knows nothing about BK or PBK cults. He has discussed some Brahmin problems encountered in the Hindu society. The understanding, terminology and practices of PBKs may be very different and we cannot link up these two.
Thanks for reading the above essay be Raya.

Satya.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2011

From the Western point of view, I would admit that our real knowledge of caste born Brahmins and Brahmanism is at a simplified, comic book level ... just as out conception of the caste system is.

One of the common myths put about in the West is that the basic 4 caste system was not meant to be tied to ancestry but to the essential nature of the individuals, e.g. a bright child with a clear intellect was meant to do Brahmin work despite whoever he was born to; ditto, an intellectually dull but physical individual was meant to Shudra work (farming, laboring etc). Caste systems, or class systems based on the idea of separation of activities according to abilities are fairly universal, and fairly universally abused as reasons to keep promising individuals down.

Most of the literature of India that has come to the West are comic book style books about miraculous saints. In my opinion, very little has been written, except for the in the driest and dustiest corners of academia, has been published about the true nature of the intellectual history of India because it did not suit the Western Imperialist worldview and their superior self image.

I must however add to the article, that those Imperial forces, said to be "of Britain" etc, had in fact previously destroyed the traditional Celtic culture of the British Isles bringing about the economic and mental subjugations of its people. That the colonial rulers had in fact colonised the British Isles first.

One of the first acts they carried out was to slaughter the druids, who were essential the indigenous brahmin caste and replace it in society with their own priest caste. This does not seem to me to be an unreasonable suggestion to make, as the Celts are generally seen as an Aryan race who wandered out of the Indian sphere of influence.

Who were these colonial rulers? The Romans from Italy, the Normans from Scandinavia, and the Christian influence. None of whom were British. But now, having failed or given up to conquer via the sword, or conquer via the Bible (destroying such priest classes) these same traditions, now Anglo-American, are conquering the world via capitalism, consumerism and the internet.

The article supports "inherited by birth, at least to the major part" without an equivalent criticism of the failings of such limitations.

Two questions I have long asked but never had answered are,

a) how many BKs are actually from a real Brahmin background? (For me, Brahma Kumarism is obviously tainted by its merchantile (vaishyas) nature, the BKs are mainly vaishyas controlling a large army of shudras.
b) how do real Brahmins view BKs and their claim to be Brahmins? Surely they must be righteously infuriated by it?

Lastly, I make one observation about Indian gurus in the West. Maharishi of TM himself once said he was a kshatriya not a brahmin and his religion was a conquering of Western territories. So often too the language of the BK Murlis are military, not brahmin, in nature.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 04 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:a) how many BKs are actually from a real Brahmin background? (For me, Brahma Kumarism is obviously tainted by its merchantile (vaishyas) nature, the BKs are mainly vaishyas controlling a large army of shudras.
It appears the followers of current day's BK/PBK are more from Sudra caste and Vaisyas are few but they donate liberally. Brahmins by caste in BK/PBK are very few and very ignorant people.
fluffy bunny wrote:b) how do real Brahmins view BKs and their claim to be Brahmins? Surely they must be righteously infuriated by it?
Real Brahmins by caste are supposed to be more intelligent and more questioning by their background and education. For them the BK/PBK are some joint led by Sudras for Sudras only. But only some Brahmin who is stuck with them or is very close with them can really say as to how they feel. All other Brahmins simply ignore them.
The reference to above is by caste by birth only. But for PBKs any one who attended 7 day course is already a Brahmin. So you will never get a proper reply from them for your question.
fluffy bunny wrote:very little has been written, except for the in the driest and dustiest corners of academia, has been published about the true nature of the intellectual history of India because it did not suit the Western Imperialist worldview and their superior self image.
A lot is available on the Practices and Philosophy of Hindus by very eminent authors written very well. May be you have not explored it properly. If you had done that your association with BK/PBK would have ended much earlier!
Regards.
Satya.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Oct 2011

satyaprakash wrote:May be you have not explored it properly. If you had done that your association with BK/PBK would have ended much earlier!
Thank you for your good answer.

I agree with your statement. I joined the so called Brahma Kumari World Spiritual "University" as a young person of university age thinking I was going to learn something about spiritual life and that it truly was a place of study and learning.

Instead it made me really stupid and robbed me of a proper education. At that time they wanted us to go out and work to bring money in and education was seen as a waste of time, or ego, as Destruction was just around the corner.

What I realise now is that it was just a part of their ploy to keep us stupid and below them. A kindergarten with kindergarten teachers.

There is very little to learn in the BKWSU. As far as I can see, it is all parrot learning (indoctrination by repetition) of a very simple message. They really don't teach people how to think and question. What I see is that their philosophical approach was largely comprised of "Challenging" priest, gurus and I suspect Brahmins with their stupid fundamentalism and then when the priest, gurus or Brahmins would not answer them because their questions or argument was so stupid, they would claim it as a victory.

I know that in India there is a great tradition of philosophical debate and, basically, every philosophical school is documented and present. I know that even local Brahmins and gurus act as counsellors, mediators and advocates as key components to social structures. In the West, the BKs have exploited negative propaganda against gurus, selling themselves as the "we-have-no-gurus" gurus. I also accept that there is lots of anti-Brahman propaganda that is basically classist and anti-intellectual and, historically, political, e.g. anti-British or communist or left wing inspire.

I am very interested to know more about the reality of Brahmins and the BKs. Are you saying they are basically ignored for being stupid? How are they seen?

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by arjun » 04 Oct 2011

satyaprakash wrote:*Fully Learning Involves Living With Teacher*:
In order to learn every nuance and every detail possible of any profession, the student has to associate very closely with the leading practitioners of that profession, it is not enough to just learn in the classroom - Take for example medical practice, it is a 24/7 profession, not just a 9 to 5 phenomenon. The aspiring student has to learn to live the life of a doctor or surgeon as a 24 hours a day, 7 days a week profession, that is as his or her life. The same is actually true of a soldier's profession, and in general true of every profession, although some professions by nature may be more intensely so than others. That's why living in a gurukula with the teacher was an opportunity for a better education than if you could just visit the school during the day. Of course, in the olden days when transport and communications were not as easy as it is today, students had to walk very long distances to reach noted places of learning and stay there for years, until they finished their studies, and graduated.
When you support the above statement, then why do you defame the PBKs when some of them (virgins in particular) wish to stay at the AIVV centers full time voluntarily or with the permission of their parents? Is it not your double standards?
*No Discrimination and Everybody Is Equal:*
All individuals are born equal before the law and as citizens of the nation (or of the world, for that matter) everybody enjoys the same fundamental rights and have the same fundamental obligations and responsibilities. Racism, sexism, discrimination, bias and untouchability are not supported by Dharma. Contrary to the arguments many people make, true Brahminism has nothing to do with promoting social bias or untouchability. In fact, the opposite is the case, because Brahminism promotes non-aggressive, compassionate satvik behavior. And, shastrically, crimes and bad behavior by Brahmins are expected to be punished more severly compared to a non-Brahmana with the same crime.
But is this being practiced in practical? It is generally seen that most of the Brahmins treat the so-called Shudras (lower caste Hindus) as second-grade Hindus or even untouchables. Is this the Brahminism that you support? If you are a Brahmin, will you allow a so-called Shudra to enter your home and drink water in the same glass that you use personally?

But in AIVV, all the members (PBKs irrespective of their caste, reliigion or language in a worldly sense) are taught to follow all the Brahminical principles and also directed to see everyone as a soul (not as a body). So, in what way are the so-called Hindu Brahmins (who do not practice their religion) better than the PBKs?

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 05 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:There is very little to learn in the BKWSU. As far as I can see, it is all parrot learning (indoctrination by repetition) of a very simple message. They really don't teach people how to think and question. What I see is that their philosophical approach was largely comprised of "Challenging" priest, gurus and I suspect Brahmins with their stupid fundamentalism and then when the priest, gurus or Brahmins would not answer them because their questions or argument was so stupid, they would claim it as a victory.
Whatever you have realised for BKWSU, the same applies to PBK also. May be you need more time for full understanding.
fluffy bunny wrote:Are you saying they are basically ignored for being stupid? How are they seen?
A normal intelligent Hindu sees both BK and PBKs as above. A few frustrated persons may join them but even with time may not leave them, as their thinking and questioning is not good enough.
Hindu saints used to say that every religion is great. It has some ways of going nearer to realisation. Anyone leaving one and going to another is fooling himself. Christians can become better Christians without signing up with some god-forsaken cults. So also a Hindu is a fool if he goes to some shady cult for realisation. As God principle is beyond human reason, no one can define God with great precision. Human understanding is limited to 5 senses and a mind depending on the brain only. If some cult fellow says, here is GOD! -Know for sure they are taking you for a ride and at the end, your pocket will be empty!
Satya.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 05 Oct 2011

arjun wrote:But is this being practiced in practical? It is generally seen that most of the Brahmins treat the so-called Shudras (lower caste Hindus) as second-grade Hindus or even untouchables. Is this the Brahminism that you support? If you are a Brahmin, will you allow a so-called Shudra to enter your home and drink water in the same glass that you use personally?

But in AIVV, all the members (PBKs irrespective of their caste, reliigion or language in a worldly sense) are taught to follow all the Brahminical principles and also directed to see everyone as a soul (not as a body). So, in what way are the so-called Hindu Brahmins (who do not practice their religion) better than the PBKs?
In any religion, if a person does not follow its teachings, then he is not doing any good to himself or the religion or the society. If a PBK is arrested for prostitution, we cannot blame all PBKs. It is like that.
As for you argument on Sudras, please use it well to attract more Sudras to PBKs. Hindu society has bigger issues like Christians converting SC and ST to their religion, by similar arguments and show of money and gifts.
Remember that Hindu society with its caste system has survived for many millenia. It had served the society well for all these thousands of years and had kept the culture and civilisation of India intact. Other civilisations like Romans, Greeks, Incas, Mayas etc. have perished. Hindu society has survived because of the basic strength of the Varna-caste system. Due to historical factors, some tuning is needed. If there are some defects it will be corrected with time. The solution is not some cult trying to take them over to their fold, with their false stories and flowery words.
Anyhow thanks for reading the essay of Raya. At least some points might have become clear to you- that is the Hindu view- not that you should accept it!
Satya.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by arjun » 05 Oct 2011

satyaprakash wrote:As for you argument on Sudras, please use it well to attract more Sudras to PBKs. Hindu society has bigger issues like Christians converting SC and ST to their religion, by similar arguments and show of money and gifts.
Remember that Hindu society with its caste system has survived for many millenia. It had served the society well for all these thousands of years and had kept the culture and civilisation of India intact. Other civilisations like Romans, Greeks, Incas, Mayas etc. have perished. Hindu society has survived because of the basic strength of the Varna-caste system. Due to historical factors, some tuning is needed. If there are some defects it will be corrected with time. The solution is not some cult trying to take them over to their fold, with their false stories and flowery words.
Anyhow thanks for reading the essay of Raya. At least some points might have become clear to you- that is the Hindu view- not that you should accept it!
I don't need any more clarification. I know what kind of mentality you have. You want to perpetuate the inequality that has been established for centuries in the Hindu society and you are one of the defenders of such caste system.

We are not asking anyone to convert to any religion. We are just asking people to see each other as souls and not as Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. You are free to practice and propagate such degraded caste system. We are happy to see everyone as children of God.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by sita » 06 Oct 2011

Body, mind and intellect all go together. You cannot have a meat eating wine drinking person to have a very pure satvic mind.
This is true, but the opposute is not true, that when you eat pure food and follow brahmacharia etc. it means your mind is pure. These external signs has made many to rely on them and claim titles based on this, but what they have developed is often same falsely based arogance on following these and arogance may not be impurity, but it causes greatest harm to the self and others and is dellusion. For the mind to become pure it is needed some purifying knowledge that is true, based on which one can follow the practice of pure thoughts, the mind has to become dynamic in this proccess, one has to think and churn on his own, and not to rely to philosophers, holy men and saints. It is needed that one develops such a stage of his mind that is non-attracted to matter. The mind cannot become pure by bathing in water, worshipping of books or idols or through worhip of any man, although he may be highly intellectual, nor through reading the scriptures that are created by the impure men, often just without understanding, but simply repeating them. People are ignorant about God you have said it yourself, yet they are arrogant to write long scriptures about something they don't know and they have viscious mind, attracted to matter, anyone who will read these will have his mind to become the same and this is what has been happening.

Any practice appears by the demand of time and changes the circumstances, and is sensible in the begining, but later when it is followed blindly as ritual it becomes corrupted and only a means not to think on your own. Relaying on tradition, one makes sure he is just one of the many. If everyone makes it, why not me, it is not possible that everyone are wrongand one stops thinking on his own and questioning. This way one is very deluded, it is often single individuals making great changes in human history and challenging the mainstream.
they take birth through knowledge,

Brahmins are there if only Brahma, the form of God is there. Brahmins, without one God is just collection of varios different intellects - Ravan.
These phrases do not mean anything? Or is it meaningful to PBKs only?
There are very simple ideas in PBK that every one also any Brahmin can understand in essence. There is no need to read a load of scriptures. Is there the need to read a load of scriptures to come to know that there is no definite answer? It is evident still from the beginning. Still in the form of a discipline, scolars will ask you to study thoroughly, but the insitution of formal education or traditional religion has become the cash-mashine that has benefitted many more people ivolved in this many more and muh longer than any spiritual organiation that at least has genuine interest and inquisive tendency an desire forchange for the better, and not only sit at the throne of authority of tradition and sleep.

The essay you have quoted...this person is a Dr, it is his job to write essays in support of the tradition supporting him.

God and Brahma and Brahmins means where does the knowledge come from. We can say that the Hindu tradition is philosophy that is created by people. Some intellectual men had gathered and invented some ideas and these were accepted by society, but both the society and these people are ignorant, but through their invented knowledge they have supressed the intellectually weak people who are often morally superior to them with their simplicity in comparison to their arrogance that although they are the same ignorants they act as if they are not and they accept from others to be threated as superior.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 06 Oct 2011

arjun wrote: You want to perpetuate the inequality that has been established for centuries
Are all PBKs equal? Are you not having a core group controlling all finances and other matters. Regarding statement of income and expenses, how many PBKs are aware of it? Forget the outsiders like me. Are you equal within your own PBK? You seem to be some sort of spokesman for PBK. Do you know as to exactly how much was income last year? So there is clearly a caste system hidden within the PBK! For Hindus the castes have a purpose; but for PBKs, what is the purpose of all the secrecy?
Satya

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by satyaprakash » 07 Oct 2011

sita wrote:Hindu tradition is philosophy that is created by people. Some intellectual men had gathered and invented some ideas and these were accepted by society, but both the society and these people are ignorant,
Vedic Rishis were supposed to be in a pure spiritual level when they saw or heard or perceived the Veda mantras and gave it to the world. These have been preserved over millenia very carefully. Millions of people have followed these teachings and have realised God. That is the proof. That is why the Hindu civilisation and religious and spiritual scriptures are held very high by all thinkers and saints in the world. There was no claim that some God came here and wrote the scriptures. They were done by Rishis who were humans only. Even Sri.Krishna of Bagawad Gita is considered to be a great Yogi or Rishi. Because people derived benfit from this system and saw value in it, that it has survived for all these thousands of years.
You seem to suggest that your AK is given directly by God. But why have the BKs declined and PBKs under decay?
Satya.

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Re: Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

Post by arjun » 07 Oct 2011

satyaprakash wrote:Are all PBKs equal? Are you not having a core group controlling all finances and other matters. Regarding statement of income and expenses, how many PBKs are aware of it? Forget the outsiders like me. Are you equal within your own PBK? You seem to be some sort of spokesman for PBK. Do you know as to exactly how much was income last year? So there is clearly a caste system hidden within the PBK! For Hindus the castes have a purpose; but for PBKs, what is the purpose of all the secrecy?
Please don't divert the issue. The finances of PBKs can be discussed elsewhere. When you cannot defend the shortcomings of Hinduism you start attacking others. There are millions (or almost all) of Brahmins who do not like to dine or live with the lower caste Hindus (especially the SCs/STs). Is this the Brahminism that you are praising? And when God is teaching the BKs and PBKs the real Brahminism you are jealous of them and defame them by saying that it is mostly the Shudras who go there. People with a narrowminded view like you cannot do any good to the underpriviliged ones and would like to continue to enjoy the high status that you have not earned by virtue of your actions but by virtue of having taken birth in a Brahmin household.

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