How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

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How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2011

Split from the topic on Minor girls recovered from UP spiritual school: BKWSU plot? as Sach Kand was taking discussion off topic.
Sach_Khand wrote:As it seems you are more intellectual and logical in approach and do not want to be caged in any rules and regulations of BKs, I suggest you to read Vivekanada. I hope it will help you to progress further in your efforts of knowing Indian culture and also in Yoga.
We are straying away from the subject of this discussion topic. What has happened to the young girls of the AIVV and who was behind it.

However, I will rreply because I have good news for you and others. The teachings of Vivekananda are available on the internet for free. Yes, it was reading works such as his (Raja Yoga) and others that led me to search and be misguided by the Brahma Kumaris. I also think you are correct. Westerners in pursuit of Hinduism and Buddhism tend to approach it in a dry, intellectual manner, through books and theoretical discussion and aesthetic appreciation, rather than practise ... because up until the 70s or even later, they had no chance to have any real immersion experience and it was a fairly elite interest. From the late 60s, only ISKCON, the "Hare Krishnas", were the only opportunity one could have and, as you know, theirs is an obscure path too.

The Theosophical Society published many of the classics. Paramahansa Yogananda was mythologised unrealistically. Paramahansa Yogananda, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Yogendra Mastamani, Yogi Bhajan, Swamis Nityananda and Muktananda, Sri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharshi, B.K.S. Iyengar all had a followers. TM became popular ... and then later the yogic businessmen like Bikram were to move in, but it was not until East African Indian immigration started that we had any chance to meet real Indians. Even our Indian restaurants were run by Muslim Bangladeshis instead. Post-BK I have visited local, as in non-fashion, non-cult Hindu ashrams, and was friends with the men who run the local Hindu association. I think I get on better with Indians than Whites. I would like to live in a vegetarian district like they have in India.

Perhaps you can introduce me to a suitable wife and I can come and live nearby you?

(I read once of 1500 followers of the Dera Sacha Sauda guru who stepped forward to be willing to marry ex-prostitutes in order to save them. I thought that was fantastic. True spiritual compassion in action.)

You are also right. We White BKs used to taken and do "BK Service" on the Indian streets of a Western cities. The Indian BKs used to take us there, and to rich Sindhi households, to show us off, literally saying, "Look, Whites do it too ... Whites follow the BKs" as a salespitch. And they used to make us dress smart, cut our hair etc so look more respectable.

Few to none of them non-BK Indians wanted to join because they all wanted to be White essentially, chasing material advancement, e.g. girls, cars, houses and business ... and, even though many were very successful (esp. the Sikhs and Sindhi) most of them ran dodgy businesses and took their money back home. I even asked young Brahma Kumaris whether they wanted to go back to India, as we fantasied about living there, and they all said, "No!". They hated the flues, smells, and messes, and liked the running hot water, central heating and life here.

BTW, I have no problem with the basic rules of BKs. I was vegetarian, non-smoker, non-drinker etc before I met them.
fluffy bunny wrote:Their living condition should not be measured against Western standards but Indian standards ... the living standards of an old man, widow or ex-prostitute without any family. By those standards, trust me they are enjoying splendid wealth and comforts.
Sach_Khand wrote:I consider this as abusive. And if this continues I wish that admin of this forum should ban fluffy from this forum. And I mean it and serious about this.
I don't think there is anything wrong in the original statement. Perhaps I should have clarified by using "including the livings standards of ...".

I know there is a extreme wealth and a large middle class in India, but the whole world also knows the disproportionately high incidence of chronic poverty among historically marginalised groups such as scheduled castes, scheduled tribes, the elderly, women and the disabled. I was watching a documentary about the young girls sold, often by their parents as Devadasi sex slaves and what happened to them, and the state of the sex workers in Mumbai (the largest sex industry centre in Asia). I am sorry but nothing in the West compares, e.g. I.2 million child prostitutes, 100 m people involved in trafficking according to the CBI. There would be outrage if there was.

I have no idea what you are taking offence about. I know you do not agree with it. I know you are not responsible for it. We have all seen people sh*tting in public at a train stations, or even on trains, and then some low caste "half-human*" or handicap person having to remove it for them. In the West, we invented sanitary plumbing and social welfare and healthcare systems so humans did not have to.

What went wrong? Why did India lose its advantage after Mohenjo Daro and Harappa?
Sach_Khand wrote:The tragedy of India and Indians is that for anything indigeous to become authenticated, Indians needs a stamp from westerners.
Again, this is strange but true, and in a way it is historically true but the formalised hatha Yoga of which you talk is a 19th Century modern invention. I don't understand this except that Western equal power and wealth and that is what matters most. The funny thing is that when Westerners have power and wealth, individually or as a class, a significant proportion then give it up and seek spirituality.

* BTW, I use "half-human" not because that is what I think but because that is how they are treated.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2011

PS. If people think I should leave because I do spoil this forum, I will.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 03 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:PS. If people think I should leave because I do spoil this forum, I will.
No you shouldn't leave the forum imo; you bring your own unique qualities and knowledge here, and are a valuable asset.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by pbkindiana » 04 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:
PS. If people think I should leave because I do spoil this forum, I will.
Do not leave as your postings are not harmful and are not annoying in any way. In fact you always update this forum with the recent information and i appreciate it. Also i like this new thread of yours, so kindly continue your work.

indie.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Oct 2011

Thank you and I apologise if I upset our friend.

The point I was trying to make is that the senior and their PR people always promote themselves as being humble, living a simple life and having no money. But in truth, they are living a life of luxury. They don't have to worry about paying taxes, where their next meal will come from, they don't have to go to work in impure or hostile environments, they don't have to do mind numbing, boring or hard physical work. They generally, from my experience, get to sleep in the middle of the afternoon and have servants. Many of them have escaped India and living in nice areas of the privileged West and benefit from free Western healthcare systems etc.

Please note, that when they go to the West, the Brahma Kumaris as a rule do not do service in poor, ugly, harsh areas but, instead, at least desireable or even very attractive areas.

My intention was not to insult India, it was to make a comparison. If the original Brahma Kumaris had not turned their religion into a money reaping machine living off others around 1950, what would their life have been like then and now? Unmarried women with no family, no training or experience, no husbands, no money, no property or land ... what could they have done? Cleaning, cooking, begging ... Where would they have lived?

The BKWSU likes to portray itself as a miraculous wonder ... but I think far more basic instincts are at play.

Om Mandli went to Madhuban believing Lekhraj Kirpalani's was God, there was no Shiva. They sat on top of the hill waiting for Destruction in 1950, believing only they would be saved and become Krishna and the Gopis. The money ran out. The donations to support them ran out. Destruction failed to arrive. Many left.

Does anyone really believe they, or Lekhraj Kirpalani, did not think, "what are we going to do?" ... and then just decide they had to go out into India and take over the business of religion from local gurus starting with all the displaced Sindhis (e.g. later going to Hong Kong, London etc)? ... Knowing that they could tap into the Sindhi wealth at least? ... then Punjabi, then Gujerati? Does anyone really believe it was "divine" rather than just adopting the only potential survival model India offered them?

It was either beg like the old widow-ladies dumped in Benares, become cooks, laborers and cleaners ... or become gurus.

Therefore, the BKs standard of living and income should not be judged by high Western standards, nor against the India gurus that make fortunes in the West, but against what they would have become if they had not exploited the business-religion model in the 1950s. Fine, standards of living have increased for some. Not all.

Now, this also happened after they 'invented' or introduced God Shiva into their religion around 1950. Was that a conscious business decision? How strange it is we know nothing of the reality of what happened.

As we all know, in India everything exists from the super rich elite to people living in simple nomad or hilltop tribes, to even iron and stone age lives and even sub-human lives. There is not one India ... there are many.

Do Westerners see a wrong or exaggeratedly bad image of India? Probably yes, because our view is dominated by the poverty and injustices. The people (socialism, human rights etc) Western societies fought hard to remove social injustice and inequality whereas India has had to accept them and the caste system enforce them. It is our tendency to criticize and want to change that.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 04 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:Thank you and I apologise if I upset our friend.
Without wanting to throw dirt, Sanjeev Bhai often appears to overreact to quite innocuous comments, so there is nothing new about this.
fluffy bunny wrote:The BKWSU likes to portray itself as a miraculous wonder ... but I think far more basic instincts are at play.
Much of the activities of the BKWSU is the shooting of Ravanraj or the night of Brahma, due to their poor grasp of, or indifference to, the deeper meanings hidden in the Sakar Murlis.

"People(BKs) do not understand what Shiv Ratri is. Apart from you(PBKs), not a single person knows the importance of Shiv Ratri(Night of Shiva), because this is the middle period(of the Confluence Age). When the night(of Brahma Baba) comes to an end, and the day begins(the shooting of this is in 1976, when Avyakt Brahma enters Father Shankar's body), that is called the most auspicious(purushottam) Confluence Age, the middle(or meeting) of the old world(ravanraj shooting in the Confluence Age) and the new world(ramraj shooting in the Confluence Age)." [Mu 2.04.04]

N.B. The parts in brackets are interpretations based on Advance Knowledge.

Roy

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Sach_Khand » 04 Oct 2011

Dear fluffy,
you have offered to quit this forum. And some here do not think it is needed but want you here as you give some very good information to them.
I have already written to you earlier what is the reason for which I want you to quit.

Once again I repeat,

I do not like your generalizing of some ideas you have about Indian society and mixing up or/and comparing of BK behaviours with Indians in general, out of context comparisons, etc.,

One example of your out of context comparison was of comparing the use of costly undergarments (?) of the present Chariot of Avyakt Bap-Dada at Mt. Abu with the poverty in India and the poor Indians. I do not know how the so called PBKs here like Roy and pbkindiana consider it in a good taste.

You have no interest in understanding BK knowledge or interpretations of BK knowledge by many splinter groups including so called PBKs. Or understdaning any personal views of some members here about the BK knowledge. So, what is your intention to be on this forum?
This is a bk-pbk.info forum which was started after you had started banning those members of your forum (brahmakumaris.info) who were interested in discussing BK knowledge. And the reason you gave was that your intentions for your brahmakumaris.info forum was other than discussing Bk knowledge and we do not fit there. Your intention was to form a platform for the ex-BKs who were unsatisfied or irritated or thought to be victims of BK knowledge or felt cheated etc., by BK knowledge. Well, now we are in a forum that has no such goals as yours and we are here solely to discuss and share our views on BK knowledge with their different interpretations. If Roy and pbkindiana do not consider it so, then let the admin clarify about what is the aim of this forum.

Other than the above mentioned things, you try to raise the general problems in Indian society and want to discuss and debate about them in this forum. Problems in India such as Poverty, Prostitution, Old age problems, Caste and untouchability problems, etc., Well, if Roy and pbkindiana are here in this forum to discuss such things then let them have another group by name "All and Everything" as you have in your brahmakumaris.info forum.
I remember how my post was made to be transferred from the commonroom just because I had written about my views on Murli points which were not in line with the so called AK interpretations. But Roy and Indiana now think that your posts are fit to be in the commonroom which want to discuss the general problems in India. I cannot understand their logic.

BK knowledge clearly states that Bharat becomes the best and also the worst. We know all this. We know the problems in India. About it's poverty, it's corruption, it's misuse of religious scriptures, devdasis, prostitutions, etc., etc., Are you and Roy and Indiana here to discuss these things? Sorry, I am not here to discuss such things.

It is clear from your posts that your main aim is to put those things which can put India in a bad taste. And what is the reason? It is just because BKs are from India and by writing the negativity in India you can tarnish the image of BKs also. You show yourself to be a supporter of truth and truth only and try to use even so called PBKs in your goal by showing yourself to be the sympathiser of Virendra Dev Dixit. It is nothing more than your policy - enemy of your enemy is your freind.

We all know what all is going on around the world including Britain, USA, Russia and Euro zone and middle east and east asia including china. The financial and economic state, the morality of people in general, the morality of politicians and business class, etc., But we cannot keep discussing all those things here and comparing the world affairs with Indian current affairs. Atleast I am not here to do this. Roy and Indiana can speak for themselves.

It is not just your actions but your intentions that matters. If you really care for truth then first make clear your intentions for being here on this forum. First practise truth within yourself and the truth of this universe will start unfolding automatically before you. I have followed it to the maximum possible for me. And even now follow it.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 04 Oct 2011

Fluffy Bhai, may have no belief in either the BK teachings or the Advance Knowledge, but he brings with him a lot of experience and knowledge, that reveals truths about the impure practices and lies, that have taken place in the name of the BKWSU. I know he is not down on all BKs, but he is trying to hold the BK leadership to account. He has a deep thirst to get to the truths about the past and present activities, of the BK Dadis. He'd be happy if we all left our Gyani studies, and sought other goals in life; but his main priority is to show the BK leadership, for what it truly is. Imo he can relax; because before too long this will happen in any case, when Brahma Baba becomes complete, and plays the part of Dharamraj through Jagadamba, and other mother souls; this being the process for opening the gates of Heaven(Ramraj) i believe. However; fluffy Bhai has no faith in this, so will continue to seek to play his own part in revealing the truth. I have no problem with this, because as a seeker of truth, i have to be prepared to face any hard facts that emerge from this process, and relish all these things being shown in blazing technicolour. I have absolutely no problem with his presence on this forum, and actually welcome it, as i like the brother, and the interesting things he relates here; even if he thinks i am burying myself in photocopies! :D

Roy

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Oct 2011

Thank you Roy. I am an agnostic who retains an interest in the movement as a whole.

Sanjeev, I see ... I am sorry but I think you have the wrong person.

You are bitter and angry and want to hold me responsible for what the admins did to you on Brahmakumaris.info.

I am sorry, it is not "my" forum, and I know more about how it runs than you do.

I think how Indians see Westerners and Westerners see India and Indians is very relevant to the BK/PBK experience both for double foreigners, and how the Brahma Kumari leaders have used them.

I was reading that in India there was a big stink because the government want to say that people living on 35 rupees a day were not in poverty. And that at least 308 million live below that amount.

Yes, of course, I think it is ridiculous that as the "only enlightened Indians", the Brahma Kumaris waste money on buying BapDada a new pair of brassiere and panties every time he comes to Earth. Why cannot he just have 3 pairs and wear them out like any normal person would do?
  • One pair on ... one in the wash ... and one for spare.
I mean, it is not as if he even goes to the toilet, or is going to be knocked down by a car, is it? BapDada has not got any karma so he cannot get dysentery like the rest of when we go to India.

* There is an old saying in the West. Mothers always tell their children to put on clear underwear just in case they are knocked down by a car and have t go to hospital. I hope the BKs at least recycle his underwear and give them to some poor sister to wear afterwards.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 04 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:mean, it is not as if he even goes to the toilet, or is going to be knocked down by a car, is it? BapDada has not got any karma so he cannot get dysentery like the rest of when we go to India.
Oh fluffy Bhai, you cannot help yourself can you; but i must admit, I am still laughing at this as i write! :D But you make a valid point!

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by pbkindiana » 05 Oct 2011

sachkhand wrote:
One example of your out of context comparison was of comparing the use of costly undergarments (?) of the present Chariot of Avyakt Bap-Dada at Mt. Abu with the poverty in India and the poor Indians. I do not know how the so called PBKs here like Roy and pbkindiana consider it in a good taste.
Facts in any issue is acceptable. It is heart-rending to give every single cent that one has saved to the bk Yagya and the BKs used to buy expensive clothings just for the Dadis on BapDada's season. Is it justified? Did ever Shiva mention in any SM to do that?
sachkhand wrote:
First practise truth within yourself and the truth of this universe will start unfolding automatically before you. I have followed it to the maximum possible for me. And even now follow it.
Practise before you preach to others. Your accusation of Baba Dixit with rape or sexual assault devoid of any documentation itself contradicts with the above statement of yours.
fluffy bunny wrote:
Yes, of course, I think it is ridiculous that as the "only enlightened Indians", the Brahma Kumaris waste money on buying BapDada a new pair of brassiere and panties every time he comes to Earth. Why cannot he just have 3 pairs and wear them out like any normal person would do?

One pair on ... one in the wash ... and one for spare.
My sisiter, a pbk told me that when a new pbk sister surrenders in AIVV, then she is given 5 sarees + 5 saree blouses + 5 petticoats + 5 undergarments and they have to use these clothes till it is torn. 5 clothings are given, as during the summer, they are able to change twice during the hot weather. The sisters keep these 5 pairs of clothings for several years.

indie.

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Oct 2011

pbkindiana wrote:My sisiter, a PBK told me that when a new PBK Sister surrenders in AIVV, then she is given 5 sarees + 5 saree blouses + 5 petticoats + 5 undergarments and they have to use these clothes till it is torn. 5 clothings are given, as during the summer, they are able to change twice during the hot weather. The Sisters keep these 5 pairs of clothings for several years.
Yes, 5 instead of 3 makes sense when you have a hot and humid climate.

You see Sachkand, that is why although I may not accept the AIVV teachings myself, I respect the PBKs for trying to follow what the teachings say sincerely, whereas on the whole, the BKs seem to spend all their time manipulating them, going against them and making excuse why it is OK.

Yes, I remember you always attacking the PBKs. The conflict you bring was a big part of the reason why the forums had to split.

I respect the PBKs for trying to make sense of the teachings, even if I, personally, find some of it senseless. However, even though I do find much of them senseless, I can see how following the religion fully could improve the personality of an individual. Most religions are illogical and senseless, or at least not provable, but they still do have some benefit on the individual or society (e.g. even atheism and communism). It is only when they go to the extreme that they become dangerous or damaging.

This is one of the paradoxes of religion. It may not be true but it has a good effect on people. Human being seem to need to be tricked or cajoled into being better. Lekhraj Kirpalani or Virendra Dev Dixit may not be God, but some people might need to believe they are to become better people. Fine, I think that may not be my path but it is theirs. Surely that is a very non-Christian, Hinduistic pluralism on my behalf?

For the most part, Brahma Kumarism does not go to extremes and so it avoids being labeled dangerous or damaging. It is seen as a kind of modernised Neo-Hinduism. A Hinduism stripped of all the insane stuff that tries to make sense of some of the symbolism.

Advance Knowledge is seen as even less so dangerous or damaging. We would tend to respect it because of its "Protestant", reformist nature fighting the Catholic indulgence and corruption of the BKWSU.

Westerners tend to look at Hinduism in two ways, on one level it is seen as colourful, primitive and insane ... worshiping rats, gods with animal heads, blue babies, rigid caste systems, human sacrifices etc (remember, it was the Europeans and then British who finally banned sati). On another level, we do not see these things as being literal but tend to see them in a benign light and understand them metaphorically. As in, what these things symbolise, what they mean at a sub-conscious level, or why they came about. We find it very interesting in that way. I suppose it is an intellectual exercise for us rather than a faith in superstition.

I think because of this, Advance Knowledge should be more naturally attractive to Western BKs ... IF ... they were allowed to look at it in an unprejudiced manner. What goes against it are, a) the fundamentalism and poisonous jealousy of the Brahma Kumari leadership who have taken over from the rigid and corrupt Brahmins of Hinduism, and b) the insistence that Virendra Dev Dixit is God rather than god inspired. I think since Protestantism and the Enlightenment in the West, there is a strong reaction against any individual being God, and a tendency towards all individuals having their own relationship with God.

However, I can see why and understand why some individuals require having a personal God, just like the Christians do with Jesus. And it is better to have a living God than a 2,000 years dead god.

Remembering the Voltaire quote on the right of Freedom of Speech,
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
I turn it around and say ...
I may not believe what you believe but I expect you to live up to what you believe (... and reward you with respect for doing so).
I have no respect for the Brahma Kumaris because they do not. They are hypocrites, and do the opposite of what their god says and, in the West, as basically just trying to grab a slice of the Hindu religion business by selling "Hinduism Lite", competing against other Hindu sects for the financial rewards. They are business people.

I would say this hypocrisy is typical of how we see Indians because most Indians we see are "low caste" ... that is to say have low morals or ethics. The pluralism of Hinduism, which is contrary to Christian elitist arrogance, is good only up until the point that is become spinelessness and lacks principles, and the Indian lower classes tended to have to adopt a way of life that avoids taking a stand because in primitive societies without human rights "taking a stand" means being killed or outcast. Most Indians in the West are merely financial migrants who have left India to make money, or been chucked out of somewhere else. That is not a very high intention and this corrupts our proper view of India.

I see the Sindhi Brahma Kumaris as just another example of this. At least the respectable Sindhis were honest about doing it for business purposes and did very well. The Sindhi Brahma Kumaris were just religious parasites looking to feed off Sindhi and mainly Gujerati Hindi business classes overseas.

(It is interesting that they don't capture many Sikhs and the Sikhs have their own strong and successful communities. I would say Westerners tend to have a good opinion of Sikhs, where they look down on general Hindus).

Lastly, in defence of high Hindu spiritual values, I believe that a real Hindu spiritual teacher would encourage their chelas to go off, study and test other paths and philosophy once they were ready. This is the opposite of what the BKs do by keeping them mental and financial slaves ... and viciously and dishonestly attacking Advance Knowledge. Therefore, I don't see the BKs as being real spiritual teachers, nor even real Hindus. Their religion is, like the PBKs say, metaphorically Islamicised or Christianised.

(The "pass mark" in Brahma Kumarism is knowing that the right thing to do is leave and being strong enough to do so).

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 05 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:What goes against it are... b) the insistence that Virendra Dev Dixit is God rather than god inspired
I am not aware that it is taught in AK, that Virendra Dev Dixit is God. It is taught that his spiritual stage at the end, becomes equal to God's(bapsaman) by becoming 100% incorporeal, through his powerful remembrance. But the title received, is Shiv Shankar; God Father Shiv, and his no 1 son, Prajapita-Ram, who is Father of humanity, not God. There is only one true God, and that is Father Shiv. the Father of all souls, including Virendra Dev Dixit. God Father Shiv, gives the inheritance of Heaven, through his corporeal Chariot, Ram; and thus Ram is the corporeal Father of humanity, Prajapita.

Roy

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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Oct 2011

Yes, I understand God is meant to be inside Virendra Dev Dixit rather than be Virendra Dev Dixit, but I was looking at it from a lokik point of view. i.e. how a Westerner would see it because they would not believe that any more than they would believe LKK was God or had God in him.

I, personally, don't even think most Westerners would see Lekhraj Kirpalani was all that holy either. He did not really do many holy works at all.

We expect our saints to help the poor, start up schools, heal people, write great literary works etc. If Lekhraj Kirpalani had lived in the West, he would have been locked up or given medicine to stop his delusions of being God. No one would have allowed him to carry on for 20 years thinking he was god. We have many people in our mental hospitals who think they are god or Jesus.

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Roy
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I have been associated with Raj Yoga since 1985, and have only quite recently come to learn of the PBKs and this forum, which i find a great place to get deeper insights into all things Gyani, and hear input from many sides. I find this most healthy, stimulating, and informative, and hope this continues for some time to come.
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Re: How Indians see Westerners, & Westerners see India & Indians

Post by Roy » 06 Oct 2011

fluffy bunny wrote:I, personally, don't even think most Westerners would see Lekhraj Kirpalani was all that holy either. He did not really do many holy works at all.
I see your point of view. No overtly charitable acts can be seen to be taking place in Gyan, both in the early days of Brahma Baba, or now with Baba Dixit. Narration of incomprehensible knowledge, doesn't really cut it as being charity in todays world! :D

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