BK concept of "Destruction"

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Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 16 Aug 2006

bansy wrote:The question is if God's words are pure and whole, then there is simply no need to change them at all.
Please remember that it is the Supreme Soul speaking using the sanskaras of Brahma, an effort maker at the time. You can see the difference when the Supreme Soul Shiva uses the sanskars of Brahma the angel. (BapDada)

"These matters are deep and need to be understood."

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2006

Firstly, thanks amaranthine for your easy going darna / reasonableness. It is a very good advertisement for your faith. There is no point denying the difficult issue, it will only cause them to come up even stronger in the future.
avyakt7 wrote:You mentioned: "you would say that I and others meet God first through the BKWSU and its members. This is where the difficulty lies."

There is no chance to experience God through something other than yourself. BKWSU knowledge is giving you the map.
Actually, it was I that said, "meet God first through the BKWSU and its members" and it is an accurate statement. Have any BKs ever been made by a book? No, it is the personal connection with BKs that the initiation to, or transmission of, the so-called Shiva is first experienced. And it is through the checking in with the Seniors next that the initiation and transmission is strengthened and developed. If it was not, how else would you know who or what it was you were having Yoga with? BKs and especially the Seniors - for good and bad - present themselves as "the fruit ... by which ye shall know Him ", to paraphrase The Bible. If Dadi is one of the 8, then is she not almost equal to God?
avyakt7 wrote:I am sorry but I will not respond any questions which deal with me. I am here to talk about God's knowledge ... as far as I am concerned, they can edit the Murli as they wish. Time is short.
You see, interesting, you are programmed to chuck in the little reference to Destruction right at the end. Always Destruction, destruction ... time is short, the end is coming ... etc.

Why the question, "How long have you been in Gyan?" is fair or important is because Gyan has - as we are discussing - and is being changed. If you are 3rd or 4th or newer generation Western Brahmin then you have no idea of what " God's [changing] knowledge" before you came into Gyan. So how long? That is not personal. That mountain you are standing on ... well, little hill really ... has been built up out of folks that had it drummed into them that the End of World is coming, End of World is coming ... in 1976, 1986, 1996, 2000 ... this year. Time is short! Those big centres, that professional publicity, those multi-millions in the bank, those donated dowries and houses, those gambled lives ... were built up on folks that were told IT WAS GOD'S WORD, and not interpretation, that it was all going to be destroyed by now.
  • Do you not think that there is an element of unethical behaviour in that or that perhaps they are due an apology if not an explanation?
avyakt7 wrote:Clear example of interpretation. If that is the way you want to interpret it... let it be.
No interpretation, no drawing down to subjectivity. Let's stick to the objective, literal word we were given.

If you can answer this response, then I will be very happy to move on to Poincaré.

I would say that I was 2nd generation Western BK. We were taught with the original Hindi teaching aids but by the 1st generation Western BKs and I remember the revolution that the Correspondence Course mentioned elsewhere and new artwork caused.

Is the Correspondence Course still used / available?

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Post by bansy » 16 Aug 2006

avaykt7 wrote:Please remember that it is the Supreme Soul speaking using the sanskaras of Brahma, an effort maker at the time. You can see the difference when the Supreme Soul Shiva uses the sanskars of Brahma the angel. (BapDada)

"These matters are deep and need to be understood."
Who is this latter statement directed to ? For ALL the Brahmins. Could it be possible that as well as all us effort makers, that God is also speaking to those who are senior enough and managing the family and organisation, and thus affecting all those in the Yagya, and this statement is directed to them even more so.

The Yagya were doing service well before the soul of Dada Lekhraj left, does that mean that the sisters and Dadis were wrong in what they did because of what Brahma Baba was telling them was incomplete at the time ? Is the entire BKWSU founded on the sanskars of Brahma or on the 100% accurate words of God ? My churning is that the Gita is the main scripture, we don't just skip to chapter 18 when Arjun (=Brahma) gets his realisation, we start from chapter 1. The Sakar Murlis (SM) are akin to chapters 1-17 and chapter 18 the Avaykt Murlis (AM). Similarly, there is the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible, why need the know the life of Christ if everything after Easter suffices. We are told in Murlis that we can teach Raja Yoga after just one day, all you have to do is tell others who is the Supreme Soul and I am a soul. If that is the case, there is no need for 7 day course.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure you love Brahma Baba as much as I do, but find it disturbing that his words and that of my dearest Shiva are changed. And with BapDada, one can only meet Him a few times a year, so during the rest of the 355 days or so when He's not around in body (*), we just have to rely on the SM and AMs.

(*) The PBKs say otherwise as discussed in the PBK forum.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 16 Aug 2006

Dear Sister,

The drama is perfect. There is nothing missing in it. We cannot change the past. It will repeat again and again ... we need to move on. The truth is there but it takes us sometime to understand it. Keep your connection with God alone. At the end (whether Destruction or your own death) it is all that matters.

Best.

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Post by john » 16 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:Keep your connection with God alone. At the end (whether destruction or your own death) it is all that matters.
The end has been coming for a long long time according to BKs,it was first of all coming in 1976 and most of BK world prepared for this and it did not happen, many left ... when Shiva says soon, how soon is soon to God?

I feel there is much more to come before that time, many revelations, keep an open mind and don't be thinking too much of 'The end', a lot can happen before that.
We cannot change the past ... it will repeat again and again... we need to move on
But the past effects the future and if the past has lead to falseness within BKdom then it is very relevant and important to us today and the future

Also love for Shiva is love for his word which is Murli. Murli cannot be discounted.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 16 Aug 2006

Only God knows "how soon is soon." The rest is just ... talk.
John wrote:but the past effects the future and if the past has lead to falseness within BKdom then it is very relevant and important to us today and the future.
Dear Soul, when we see that the "past affects the future" let us not forget that the future affects the past ... It is a cycle after all.

Best.

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Post by john » 16 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:Only God knows "how soon is soon." The rest is just ... talk.
That is my point ... is soon 2 years, 10 years, 50 years or more, according to BKs soon past a long time ago (in 1976)
avyakt7 wrote:Dear Soul, when we see that the "past affects the future" let us not forget that the future affects the past ... It is a cycle after all.
So in that sense if we don't strive for truth, it may not be in our past or future.

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Poincaré Recurrence Theorem

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:The rest is just ... talk.
I am sorry to pull you up again, I am aware that this is a contentious issue that is likely to split the community of this forum and hpe that it does not overshadow other positive discourse. But ... the rest is not "just talk" avyakt7.
  • It is peoples' lives.
Personally, I do not feel responsible enough to take one day out of someone else's life through my dishonesty.

By the teaching of Destruction, the Seniors within BKWSU have not just taken years out of peoples' lives ... thousands of people, destroying some ... but altering the course of their lives for the rest of it.

The psychic techique of compressing individuals' efforts, goals and expectations on the basis of an "End of the World" scenario is one that has been used time and time again through religion. It works very well to make some people make efforts that otherwise they would not have. I was speaking to another ex-BK whose life was turned inside out and he said clearly that if he had know that the BKWSU had been predicting the End of the World in 1976 ... and it did not happen ... then he would have never gotten involved and surrendered his life as and when he did.

Do you not that that at least individuals have the right to this knowledge before they are too deeply inivolved with the BKWSU?
  • • Poincaré
And here is where I lose your attention forever ... I have to say that I am quite sure that you are misinterpretating Poincaré theory to suit the BKWSU faith. Poincaré recurrence theorem states that ;

"a system having a finite amount of energy and confined to a finite spatial volume will, after a sufficiently long time, return to an arbitrarily small neighborhood of its initial state. "

Firstly, we look at the last statement, it read close but not atom to atom exact as the BKs teach. Secondly, there is the problem with Recurrence theorem contradicting the far more sure Second Law of Thermodynamics and the question of whether the material Universe is finite in all ways. An issue that the BKWSU, for all its University might, has not suggest a successful theory for either. "Recurrence time", on a cosmic level, would be considered so long that for all practical purposes it is infinite, i.e. that it would never happen. Statistically speaking, it is far more likely to never happen that happen repetitively over periods of 5,000. Indeed, infintely more likely.

The BKWSU is happy to suggest a neat downwards entropic decline in the lesson of The Cycle but no inclination of how the Cosmo - because it must be the entire Cosmos and not just Planet Earth - suddenly pops back up to it original state. By the Laws of Thermodynamics this would require an influx of energy from somewhere else and we have not squared up how soul power or Shiva Power translates to material energy and why neither would degrade energetically over time.

Perhaps you would be more enthusiastic to discuss this aspect of Destruction.

To be honest, I have been desparate for a BK to come forward and suggest that Destruction must be not just a destruction of the Western World, a lost continent here and there and a little civil war in India BUT instead a turning inside out of the entire material Universe. A complete re-writing of matter. In short another Big Bang. or a Big Bang at the end of each Cycle - which does run parallel with some scientific theories.

I have deliberately held back from saying this because I wanted to see some BK say it instead. I just cant see Destruction working out any other way.

In your own work, you tred a difficult path by at one point accusing science of being the new religion and priesthood, something that I do not disagree with to a degree, but at another using science yourself as a religious talisman holding up iconic theorem to awe the crowds. IMHO, I think the BKs have a tendance to do pick up elementary pieces of science that suit them, ignoring scientific practise, and use them as religious poetry to impress themselves and non-scientific audiences - rather than do the mathematics to prove them!

But let's start with some simple mathematics ;
  • • How much energy is tied up in 6 Billion dead bodies?
  • • How much energy would be required to burn, bury or eradicate them?
  • • How many individuals would be required to get rid of them and how much energy required to do so?
  • • How much pollution would that release into the atmosphere?
  • • How long would they and it take to decompose [ Given a couple of Billion are radioactive]?
Those calculations are actually quite doable. The back of a cigarette packet says that it is not possible within 30 years.

So what is your theory? No disappearing into notional Yoga, let us see your science.

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Post by bansy » 16 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:The drama is perfect. There is nothing missing in it. We cannot change the past. It will repeat again and again ... we need to move on. The truth is there but it takes us sometime to understand it.
Yes, drama is perfect. Even the editing of Murlis.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 16 Aug 2006

Isn’t the drama something? The soul is eternal so, nothing can happen to us. We will go back and repeat this again.. so the question is: when do I decide to change my attitude to change things? I see your point clearly. I feel there is a need for healing time. Good wishes and pure feelings are always needed to accomplish this. We cannot blame anything on others; this is something which God reminds us. We know the drama, we know karma, we know about vibrations, we know about mercy and love. When do we decide to use this knowledge?

Once you are a Brahmin, your life may turn upside down.( It has been my experience.) Let’s say you have a wife and you didn’t know she had a child. You found out after some time. Some will divorce this wife right away. Some others will not. Which decision was the right one? Who is the authority to say? Life is not black or white. We need to understand that. I cannot let the behavior of some to affect me ... it is a game after all.

I am glad you brought up the recurrence theorem. You mentioned: “And here is where I lose your attention forever ...” It seems that you have your mind made up already, so whatever I say will not make a difference… here it goes anyway. Please take a look at this document, if you wish; http://www.godhascome.org/images/Time.htm. Here you will see in the only color graphic how low entropy becomes high entropy ... and so on. It is the “Ying-Yang” it is how day changes into night and night into day. Simple. The problem with western science is that they look at time as being linear.

Once they understand that time is not linear but cyclical then their questions can be resolved. Unfortunately, science has decided to “ignore” this. Why? Because ideologies, religions and belief systems will go down the tubes if so. Western science cannot answer the rhetorical question who is first, the chicken or the egg? Neither they can’t figure out how something “descending the Ladder” aka high entropy, becomes low entropy again. (From new to old) Thus, they “see” a contradiction with the second law. Please read the document, you will find there the explanation ... but just in case here is a copy of it:

“This scientific dilemma could be resolved by looking at the arrow of time in a different way. This is not a “straight line” problem of time as pointed out before. When we see time as a cycle, as a circle we are able to realize that past and future are non-existent unless a point of reference is established. This point of reference will be called “Present”. Entropy then will be as high in the “past”, which is the left side of the point of reference and around the circle as it is in the “future”, which is the right side of the point of reference in the circumference all the way until reaching the same point again. Therefore, Loschmidt problem is resolved. Note how “a widget “in the present time (now) has higher entropy towards the future. It is depicted in the inside band (red) at the same time, in the outside band and going towards the past (blue band) entropy also increases. In both directions, we reach the present time or the starting point and in both ways entropy increases.”

Therefore, there is no contradiction whatsoever between the second law (entropy) and Poincare's theorem.. that is as long as you see time as cyclical and predestined... (as we know it is). It is just plain old logic applied once we know that time is cyclical. Of course, you already made up your mind... so let it be.

Glad to be able to share.

Best.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 16 Aug 2006

Dear Sister,

It doesn't bother ShivBaba himself ...

Best.

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Post by bansy » 16 Aug 2006

It doesn't bother ShivBaba himself....
I don't think He says this. If nothing bothers ShivBaba, then we are in Golden Age by now.

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Post by john » 16 Aug 2006

It doesn't bother ShivBaba himself....
But was it things like this that made him leave the BK organisation.

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Poincaré's grave

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:I am glad you brought up the recurrence theorem.
I bet you are ... it is one of your religious effigies on your altar to science!
avyakt7 wrote:Therefore, there is no contradiction whatsoever between the second law (entropy) and Poincare's theorem.. that is as long as you see time as cyclical and predestined... (as we know it is)
OK. You say so but Orthodox Religious Science disagrees with you and no one has resolved this problem yet. Where are the BK mathematicians and physicians or did they all give science up where they started Gyan?So, let us do the BK science. You have not picked up or addressed any of the issues I raised. You have just repeated your theory like a mantra favorite. Sorry for the wake up call.

The BK theory is that at the End of the Cycle, matter is at its lowest, most disordered energy state. How does it get back to its highest, order state? Actually Orthodox Religious Science says the Universe is still expanding and not slowing down yet ... "Predestination" is not an answer. There has to be a material, mechanic expression.
  • Is the Universe a closed or open system anyway?
  • Where does the energy come from to raise or revert its state?
  • How is the expanding material Universe pulled 5,000 years backwards in its expansion?
  • Is it the entire Universe that must be destroyed and then re-created Transformed or is it just missing continents/civil war?
And let's do the mathematics on the 6 Billion dead.
  • Are Krishna and the Deities dancing on the Kali Yugi skeletons of the dead or have they all been dumped at sea by flying vimanas?
Let us follow the thoughts through to their logical conclusion. I'd like to make a point here but will give you a chance to address these matters fairly first.

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Post by amaranthine » 16 Aug 2006

I really don't think you can explain the cycle with current scientific knowledge and feel a little uncomfortable when BKs try to do this. In my opinion looking at the cycle in this manner can only lead to the conclusion that the knowledge is wrong. I have decided to believe it is right (based on my experience) thus this is why I believe that there has to be some other scientific explanation based on an understanding that has yet to emerge.

My belief is that it is human consciousness that creates the physical reality and so because of this such things as deep space probes etc do not have to return to their metal ore in the ground and indeed matter could be viewed as being fluid.

I also believe that one of the roles of BKs is to reveal to the scientists the power of (soul) consciousness in order to pique their interest in this area of science so finally they are inspired to discover the theories that would explain all of this.

When Baba says such things in the Murlis that all the dead bodies will provide excellent manure, I take this as a pointer to not be attached to the body beceause at the end of the day its just manure, rather than a scientific fact, ie its a symbolic statement. This is how Gyan works for me so please do not flame me for my 'symbolic' opinion.

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