Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

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Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jun 2013

In the Sakar Murlis and elsewhere it has often been claimed Lekhraj Kirpalani was 60 years old when Shiva incarnated into him in 1936.

We know now that is false, Lekhraj Kirpalani was only 52 in 1936 and 48 when he started Om Mandli, therefore in PBKism it is assumed that God Shiva must entered into someone else who was actually 60. This seems a reasonable suggestion to me. In fact, the theory I am working on just now is that the BKs' versions about Lekhraj Kirpalani are actually a mixture of the story of this individual's life and Lekhraj Kirpalani's life ... that is to say, many of the stories and attributes that the BKs give to Lekhraj Kirpalani, were actually stories and attributes of this other individual.

The BKs are trying to mend the truth to fit their false version. They now say God used the term "sathiyana" to mean "60-ish" and suggest that means the same as Vanaprastha (the retirement period).

A few questions arise ...
  • What is the actual word, in Hindi, the BKs are translating as 60 years old or going 60-ish in the Murli?

    Is it sathiyana or do they actually say 60?

    What do you feel sathiyana actually means. Is it vague and does it mean what in the Western BKs are saying?
I read in a dictionary Sathiyana means, "To be sixty years old" or "due to old age, to have diminished intellect", even a loss of discrimination or judgement.

In truth, knowing what we know now, these could all be true of Lekhraj Kirpalani.

The dictionary says it is seldom used as a descriptive term in third-person terms and is used more commonly about specific old people, humorously or derisively, and marking them as being wilful or stubborn, such as referring to the irritable and often hot-brained behaviour of a known elder (younger people might call friends of the same age sathiya if they were acting like a stubborn old person).

It also connected to 'hot brained-ness', to struggles of authority within a household or public arena." "To go sixtyish" means getting angry, confused or obstinate.

What do native Hindi speakers thing about this?

Thank you.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:What do native Hindi speakers thing about this?

Thank you.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by arjun » 09 Jun 2013

fluffy-bunny wrote:What do you feel sathiyana actually means. Is it vague and does it mean what in the Western BKs are saying?
Sathiyana in Hindi is used in negative terms. This word has been derived from the original word 'saath' which means 'sixty'. 'Sathiyana' means to grow older than 60 years in literal sense, but actually it is used deridingly to describe the old people who become absent-minded or obstinate (which are age related characteristics).

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jun 2013

Yes, thank you. That is what I understood ... but, what is the word in Hindi used by the BKs either in the Murlis or in their literature to describe Lekhraj Kirpalani's age in 1936, please?

We have a situation where a leading BK propagandist BK Tamasin Ramsay PhD is, I believe, deliberately misrepresenting the issue according to the BKWSU's partyline, corrupting academic understanding, and misleading the individuals and establishment who depend on the accuracy and impartiality of academia.

It would appear, she is being dragging into the BKWSU/AIVV debacle and, obviously, trying to write out the original 60 year old Chariot/other partner.

She has translated sathiyana simply to mean "To go sixty-ish", despite Lekhraj Kirpalani being only 52, and without any of the negative inferences. I believe this is incorrect and would have found it surprising that she could not find an accurate understanding whilst being surrounded by Hindi speaking sisters and working closely with Jayanti Kripalani on their historical revision project, if I did not know what their agenda was.

I do not believe she has ever taken the time to study PBK beliefs.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by arjun » 12 Jun 2013

Yes, thank you. That is what I understood ... but, what is the word in Hindi used by the BKs either in the Murlis or in their literature to describe Lekhraj Kirpalani's age in 1936, please?
The word used in Hindi is 'boodha' (old) and 'vaanprasthi' (someone who has crossed the age of 60) in the Murlis.

"Baap samjhaatey hain – mai aakar saadhaaran boodhey tan may pravesh kartaa hun. Jaroor anubhavi ka shareeer chaahiye na."(Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 17.07.08, pg 2)

"The Father explains – I come and enter an ordinary old body. Certainly the body of an experienced person is required, isn’t it?”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 17.07.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Jun 2013

arjun wrote:'vaanprasthi'
So the Murlis don't use sathiyana at all?

I understand vanaprasth to be less specific than 60. Indeed, it could be younger 45-65 depending on the individual and sanyas to be the final age.

However, that would still exclude Lekhraj Kirpalani as his son or successor was still too young for Lekhraj Kirpalani to have retired from all his worldly responsibilities.

The concepts of vanaprasth and sanyasa appear to be a little mixed up.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by Roy » 13 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:I understand vanaprasth to be less specific than 60. Indeed, it could be younger 45-65 depending on the individual and sanyas to be the final age.
I believe when the term is used in the Sakar Murlis by Father Shiv, through Brahma Baba Krishna, He is being very specific... He means 60 years old. Once again, the BKs do the inaccurate shooting in the Confluence Age, by fudging the issue for their own ends, by using the term sixtyish. The Murli point below, clarifies this issue as far as i am concerned...

"Those people (of the outside world) do not understand the meaning of vaanprasth as well (as the BKs who try to fudge the issue). They have to enter the vaanprastha stage; this is why they feel that they should seek a guru. They seek a guru after 60 years of age. This rule has started now (in the Confluence Age). The Father says – I become his (Prajapita-Ram's) Satguru in the vaanprastha stage (when he was 60 years old, in 1936/7, in his previous birth) at the end of the many births of this one (Brahma Baba Krishna, who would be about 50 years old at this time)." [Mu 20.07.09]

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Jun 2013

And what words did he use for 60 in that quote? Does he ever use the specific number '6 and 0' ?

I know it is a point of importance for the PBKs, underlined by the revelation Lekhraj Kirpalani was only 52 in 1936 and there being evidence of the other character existing, however, I think it is also a strong argument that Lekhraj Kirpalani was not at that age of retirement as his children were not ready to take over his home and business at that age.

How old was Narain, 12 or something? Was he the eldest son?

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by Roy » 13 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:And what words did he use for 60 in that quote? Does he ever use the specific number '6 and 0' ?
Arjun Bhai may be able to comment on that, as i haven't seen the point in Hindi, only the translation.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Jun 2013

Thank you.

Yes, the English translations have been through too many wash and polishes before coming to the surface. It's impossible to take them for granted. It may be necessary to cross references them to other material we have. Certainly I remember Jagdish in the 70s writing 55 ish in English.

It's important to get right.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by arjun » 13 Jun 2013

fluffy-bunny wrote:And what words did he use for 60 in that quote? Does he ever use the specific number '6 and 0' ?
Yes, he has specifically used the number 60.
I have found another Murli point where the number sixty has been used specifically:

“मैं कैसे आता हूँ – वह भी तुमको समझाता हूँ। मुझे रथ तो जरूर चाहिए। कौन सा रथ? कोई महात्मा का तो नहीं ले सकते। मनुष्य कहते हैं तुम ब्रह्मा को भगवान, ब्रह्मा को देवता कहते हो। अरे, हम कहाँ कहते हैं। झाड़ के ऊपर एकदम अन्त में खड़े हैं, जबकि झाड़ सारा तमोप्रधान है। ब्रह्मा भी वहाँ खड़ा है तो बहुत जन्मों के अन्त का जन्म हुआ ना। बाबा खुद कहते हैं मेरे बहुत जन्मों के अन्त के जन्म में जब वानप्रस्थ अवस्था होती है तब बाप आये हैं। जो आकर धन्धा आदि छुड़ाया। साठ वर्ष के बाद मनुष्य भक्ति करते हैं भगवान से मिलने के लिए।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक 08.07.09, पृ. 3 एवं 4)

“I also explain to you as to how I come. I definitely require a Chariot. Which Chariot? I cannot take up any Mahatma’s (saint’s) Chariot. People say that you call Brahma as God; you call Brahma as a deity. Arey, where do we say? He is standing at the top of the tree at the fag end when the entire tree has become degraded. Brahma is also standing there; so it is the last one of many births, isn’t it? Baba himself says – the Father has come when it is the vanprastha stage at the end of many births. He came and made me to leave the business, etc. People do Bhakti after sixty years to meet God.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.07.09, pg 3&4 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

And here is the Murli point that Roy Bhai had quoted:
“वो लोग तो वानप्रस्थ का भी अर्थ नहीं समझते। वानप्रस्थ में जाना है इसलिए समझते हैं गुरु करना चाहिए। 60 वर्ष के बाद गुरु करते हैं। यह कायदा अभी ही निकला है। बाप कहते हैं – इनके बहुत जन्मों के अन्त में वानप्रस्थ अवस्था में मैं इनका सतगुरु बनता हूँ। बाबा भी कहते हैं 60 वर्ष बाद सतगुरु किया है जबकि निर्वाणधाम जाने का समय है। बाप आते ही हैं सबको निर्वाणधाम में ले जाने। मुक्तिधाम जाकर फिर पार्ट बजाने लिए आना है। वानप्रस्थ अवस्था तो बहुतों की होती है, फिर गुरु करते हैं। आजकल तो छोटा बच्चा हुआ, उनको भी गुरु करा देते हैं फिर गुरु को दक्षिणा मिल जाएगी। क्रिश्चियन लोग क्रिश्चिनाइज़ कराने गोद में जाकर देते हैं। परन्तु वह कोई निर्वाणधाम में जाते नहीं। यह सब राज़ बाप समझाते हैं, ईश्वर का अन्त तो ईश्वर ही बताएंगे। शुरु से लेकर बतलाते आये हैं। अपना अन्त भी देते हैं और सृष्टि का ज्ञान भी देते हैं।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक 20.07.09, पृ. 2 एवं 3)

“Those people do not understand the meaning of vaanprasth as well. They have to enter the vaanprastha stage; this is why they feel that they should seek a guru. They seek a guru after 60 years age. This rule has started now. The Father says – I become his Satguru in the vaanprastha stage at the end of the many births of this one. Baba says – I too have sought a Satguru after 60 years when it is time to go to the abode of salvation (nirvaandhaam). The Father comes only to take everyone to the nirvaandhaam. You have to go to the abode of liberation (muktidhaam) and then you have to come to play a part. Many people reach the vaanprastha stage. Then they seek a guru. Now-a-days even a small boy is enabled to seek a guru. Then they (the gurus) get dakshina (monetary offering). Christians place the children in the lap (of the church fathers) to Christianize them. But they do not go to the nirvaandhaam. The Father explains all these secrets. God will himself narrate the knowledge of God. He has been narrating from the beginning. He gives the knowledge about Himself as well as the knowledge of the world.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.07.09, pg 2&3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by Roy » 13 Jun 2013

Thank you for the Murli points Arjun Bhai. Here is another, that although it has obviously been revised in terms of the number of years since the beginning of the Confluence Age, contains the reference to sixty years once again...

“Baba has explained – one should always say ‘Trimurti Shiv Jayanti’. This time (in 2008) it will be written that we are celebrating 72nd Trimurti Shivjayanti. How can Shiv take birth without Brahma... Human beings have become completely vicious and sinful. Even when they become old they do not leave vices (i.e. lust). Otherwise, it is a rule that one should take retirement (vaanprasth) after the age of 60 years. Earlier people used to do like this. They used to relieve themselves of burdens (i.e. discharge their responsibilities) within 60 years and entrust it to the children. Now people keep giving birth to children even at the age of 60 years. The Father says – at the age of 60 years of this one(Brahma Baba Krishna, in 1947/8), at the end of the last one of many births, when he reaches the stage of vaanprasth (retirement), I have entered in him. Only then did he too leave everything. With the arrival of the Father, the entire world reaches the vaanprasth stage because everyone has to return (home). That is why the Father says – Remember me alone. Nobody will survive, whether young or old... The Father comes in the Confluence Age and transforms the sinful ones into pure ones. That is why the duration of this Age/Era will be counted from that time. You will say that we are celebrating the 72nd Trimurti Shiv Jayanti or that ShivBaba has come (here) since 72 years." [Mu 14.11.07]

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Jun 2013

Roy wrote:The Father says – at the age of 60 years of this one(Brahma Baba Krishna, in 1947/8), at the end of the last one of many births, when he reaches the stage of vaanprasth (retirement), I have entered in him.
Yes, but he was not 60 in 1947/48 ... he was 63/64 ... that is the problem with depending on snippets of Murlis from here and there. Obviously the PBKs are putting their own spin on this and we need to refer back to the earliest available Murlis.

Lekhraj Kirpalani was 60 in 1944 ... the partner was said to have died in 1941, and there is no mention of Shiva until after 1955.

When was the partner 60?

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by Roy » 13 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:Yes, but he was not 60 in 1947/48 ... he was 63/64 ... that is the problem with depending on snippets of Murlis from here and there. Obviously the PBKs are putting their own spin on this and we need to refer back to the earliest available Murlis. Lekhraj Kirpalani was 60 in 1944 ... the partner was said to have died in 1941, and there is no mention of Shiva until after 1955. When was the partner 60?
Call it spin, but i believe Father Shiv when He tells us through Virendra Dev Dixit ji, that Brahma Baba was 50 in 1936/7, and therefore 60 in 1946/7... Thus, i believe that the document you have presented on this forum, revealing Dada Lekhraj's age to be 54 in 1938, may not be totally accurate(i don't think we've seen an actual birth certificate have we?). This is my conviction, unless any further evidence emerges that confirms categorically, the accuracy of the information you have revealed to us.

We are told by Father Shiv that the partner was 60, in 1936/7.

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Re: Does sathiyana mean 60 years old?

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Jun 2013

I know the BKs have a copy of the birth certificate, I saw Tamasin Ramsay referring to it. I believe the AIVV does now too.

Of course, you could always argue that it is wrong ...

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