Marrying types

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Jun 2013

It's unbelievable for me ... if you had told me this would be happening x years ago when I was a BK I would *never* have believed it could happen. It was absolutely against Shrimat and the Maryadas.

I have not heard or seen them to be officially changed and so I have to consider them still absolutely against Shrimat and Maryadas.

If you had suggested that to center-in-charges or leaders such as the Dadis etc ... they would have scolded you and, if you persisted, pushed you out and told you to leave. You would have been kept away from any sister and all the sisters warned not to speak to you. They used to split a part couples. I've seen it with my own eyes.

What I would like to know is how this has happened and come out? Not in a theoretical manner, e.g. degradation, shooting etc, but in a practical manner.

If it is happening in the West and happening in India ... it must have been spread out internationally from the centre. Direct from and at Abu. When did it happen?

Did some senior at a teachers training course instruct it? Was it written in a Murli noticeboard?


For me, it is somewhat unethical. How many individuals sacrificed and surrendered so much to build all this up on the basis of what we were told was "God's words ... God's directions ... God's instructions" only for it all to be thrown away or turned into a ... what?

A living (income) for the center-in-charges running a New Age meditation center and corporate coaching business?

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Re: Marrying types

Post by Roy » 30 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:What I would like to know is how this has happened and come out? Not in a theoretical manner, e.g. degradation, shooting etc, but in a practical manner.
There is nothing theoretical for me about the obvious decline and degradation of the BKIVV. It's in the Murlis, and was described long before it reached this point, where the degradation is now being clearly revealed by souls like yourself. The BK leadership obviously love their rich lifestyles, with the modern conveniences and trappings... and that's all that seems to matter now.

“The Father says – your religion gives you a lot of happiness. The Father alone comes (i.e. is revealed in the body of Prajapita-Ram, from 1976) and makes you (PBKs) master of heaven. The time for happiness of others (BK Dadis) has come just now, when death is staring at them. These aeroplanes, electricity, etc. did not exist earlier. For them(BK Dadis etc), it is like heaven now. They build so many big palaces (and purchase many properties). They think that they are very happy now. They reach London so quickly... they think that this is heaven. Well, someone should explain to them that Satyug (the Golden Age) is said to be heaven; Kaliyug (the Iron Age) will not be called heaven. If you leave your body(consciousness) in hell, you will certainly take (spiritual) rebirth in Heaven. Earlier, you (PBKs) did not understand these issues... now you understand.” [Mu 06.02.09]

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 30 Jun 2013

I think keeping friendship is the normal reaction.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Jun 2013

Do you think blessing and celebrating marriages is in accordance with The Knowledge?

Can BKs have friendships or are their relationships not bound to service and keeping such individuals cooperative?

In the old days, there was a big issue about purity and impurity. A brother and sister would never have married either for love, certainly not for sex, not even for a fraudulent visa or business as is happening now. I cannot believe even Lekhraj Kirpalani would have allowed it. How can you listen to what it says in the Murli, even read it out day after day for years ... and then bake a cake for a marrying sister?!?

The words he uses are like, "brothel ... slaughterhouse ... murder ... etc". You don't take a cake to slaughter.

Roy says it was predicted in the Murlis but what on earth is happening?

For me, from the point of view of The Knowledge, it raises *huge* ethical problems. Such large ethical problems that the BKs do not seem to be able to appreciate just how big. Or perhaps just not care as long as the money keeps rolling in.

On one hand, someone reported that Dadi Janki has big property in her personal name in Gyan Sarovar (unconfirmed), on the other hand they have married ex-BK ... contact souls ... moving into properties on their luxury retreats whilst poor sincere Maryadas following BKs are living together like rats in simple, single rooms.

Likewise, on the issue of purity, in the old days only "pure" individuals would have been involved in service because of the vibrations or conflicts non-pure individuals would have brought ... as with eating food. Now, I am told that such individuals drop in and out of BKism doing some free work for them, going off and having relationships ... mixing every thing up.

Were the old days wrong?

One effect of this is actually beneficial to the BKs. These "cooperative souls" either don't know or clearly deny The Knowledge and operate at a lower level of consciousness. They act like a defence system for the BKs creating a false impression, creating confusion behind which the leaders can hide what they are doing, even arguing against the truth whilst defending their favorite Dadi.

I suppose you will say they are actually not real BKs, just devotee souls ... mercenary devotees fighting to protect their goddesses.

I can confirm that it goes right to the top and happens with Dadi Janki's knowledge. I have no idea what drive her but she is really going to roast in hell/Dharamraj ...
Roy wrote:The time for happiness of others (BK Dadis) has come just now, when death is staring at them. These aeroplanes, electricity, etc. did not exist earlier. For them(BK Dadis etc), it is like heaven now ...
I have to admit that the interpretations of Virendra Dev Dixit that I have seen are a lot more logical, as far as they go, then the BKs' propaganda.

I say, "as far as they go", because it appears he is somewhat limited by the position or condition of BKs/PBKs and so has to start from that point in order to build a bridge to where ever he is taken them, e.g. the Sevak Ram issue is a perfect example. Most BKs are in that children's comic book state of mind and so he will have to start building the bridge at that point.

I've made a point of not studying the Advance Knowledge so as not to be influenced by it. If something is logical and true, like a mathematical problem, anyone should arrive at the same point. A while back, I started to think that the so called visions of heaven Lekhraj Kirpalani had was not of heaven but of this time now ... I could accept that ... and that everything was all mixed up and scrambled in his mind; future ... past ... knowledge ... Hindu Bhakti etc.

I did not mean to dismiss PBKism as theoretical. I meant, I'd like to document closer who did what when so see how it all came about or fell to pieces.

Things don't "just happen" ... someone makes them happen.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 30 Jun 2013

You ask many and difficult questions, answer cannot be simple. What to do in certain situation, according to the knowledge, if you cannot ask ShivBaba, you have only your own consiousness to ask. Asking a senior is not knowledge. Asking anyone is advice. Collecting advice of many people is also a way to form an opinion.

I will ask you in return. I believe in the knowlege, but i live in this world and i have friends who marry and have children. Do you think the knowledge requires me to develop hatred towards them and not be happy with their happiness.

I don't know what is according and what is not according to the knowledge. The more I think about it, the less I am able to tell. But I know that BKs can be true friends. It is not only for seva. And you make it seva to sound like a bad word. A friend calls to meet, he is doing seva to me. He likes to meet so that we can have some fun. This is seva.

Do you think it is seva or according to the knowledge that I preach to people who enjoy sex and like to marry that it is violence and to marry is to ruin yourself?

Surely the neoliberal moods in society have to have their shooting in the BK world, according to the knowledge, but I do accept that being too strict is of no use. I think it is lack of humanity being very dogmatical and you will find in the biographies of great people that they have drastically changed their mind, sometimes in 180 degress, even several times in their life. It is so normal to change, it is so human, it is to grow, it is natural for some time to be in some illusion and then to see reality and then again and again. Change is the knowledge. As Tagor says....the law of May is broken in December. I think we live in a more amorphous world and every attempt to set some rules kills spontaneity.

Maybe i have just stopped surprising myself to anything but what keeps me in the knowledge is also the surprising responses, matters, happenings from the people in the knowledge that reveal their true face, that these surprises are not always unpleasant. But for as long as i have expectation i will be dissapointed.

Anyway i do not think that it would be according to the knowledge that if a brother who follows the knowlegde marries i have to isolate him. I think a common mistake is following the letter instead of the spirit of the teaching and i think the spirit of the teaching encourages cordial interaction with people.

And, please, keep focussed on the separate topic. There is no need that every time you mention your general ideas about the BKs and PBKs.

I also don't think money is an issue. I think the BK have so much money now that they can live without further donation.

Whatever points from the knowledge you may take for to justify isolation of married people is that impure persons should not be allowed in the court of Indra and the one who takes them will turn into stone. But a BK center is not a court of Indra. And if the false arrogance of being pure against the impure ones is washed away - it is good.

Yes, degradation is natural. So natural it does not seem like degradation, sometimes it seems like progress. But the taller is the palace of cards, the more spectacular will be the fall. Establishment and destrucion go in hands.The more shiny a world we build, the more in this the rotten face of reality becomes merged. It does not mean i dissaprove of the world. It is the only one we have.

I don't think that operating in ashrams and closed atmosphere makes it any good, this is the old way, the old tradition. There is a saying in the knowledge that we will see at the end how many and how much become ash. I interpret it to mean to mix completely with the world. My own, personal goal i have set for myself is to be the most normal person in this knowledge. It is not good to go into too much and extremes and everything human is close to us. We don't become deities by denying our humanity, but by outgrowing it and for as long as we grow it is healthy to know where you are, the situation. By being normal i understand it be a nice company, my acts should not create some disturbance for people, there is always a way to follow the knowledge and still maintain healthy relationship with the outside world.

Although it is said in the knowledge that the path to liberation in life is through hatered towards this world, when I start to apprechiate and enjoy the world more I don't think there is conflict, because I follow the rule of being happy whilst in the world. To hate this world is to hate what is to be hated I think, the wrongs, not just everything by default. Baba is also part of this world. Yes, he is not, he is away from this world (the material world) in the same way as we the souls are away. It is said we should hate this body and also take care for it with utmost care as if for something precious. What to do?

The knowlege is made in such a way so that whatever you do, you will always break some rule, so you may feel guilty about everything. At the same time it is also possible to have the feeling that whatever you do is right. It depends on what you focus on.

If you can explain me what is wrong that they have done in cutting this cake I am ready to listen to your arguments, but the argument that it is not according to the knowledge does not work. Please, explain it to me as if I don't know anything about the knowledge, explain it to me as if I am a child. Explain to me what bad did it happen that they cut that cake. Don't use complicated words like hipocrisy. This is something we all meet in some or another form in our life. Tell me how to judge what is good and what is bad. I cannot see the harm and demoralizing effect you like to attach to such a simple act, but I see it as the most normal thing to do. Or do you you see it better like that: ...the married BK calls the center to share the news....Om Shanti...i got married.....go to hell. Even if one is to be isolated it cannot happen at once and it would require some time. I think the difference in lifestyle will create a natural separation.

I think it is often that the one who marries who distances himself, maybe due to some biting of consiousness inside, but for the BKs it is always encouraged that they try to keep contact. It is said that they should write letters and ask...you were climbing the Ladder to heaven, now you have gone to hell, what has happened, why have you stopped coming, has Maya eaten you.

Were the old days wrong? Probably yes for some matters, no for others.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by Roy » 01 Jul 2013

sita wrote:Were the old days wrong?
In terms of Baba's instructions regarding marriage, and souls trying to adhere to these teachings i would say no. Baba is teaching us how to reach the highest goal in life, to become pure... but only 8 totally achieve this, and the next 100 of the 108 come close. To become a 108, the primary thing in your life has to be ShivBaba... to become pure you have to remember the One who is pure... all other relationships, take you in the direction of body consciousness... including that of worshipping the Dadis... the body conscious gurus. The relationships that block this progress towards purity the most are the relationships that involve sex. It's a different matter for souls who are married and then come to Baba, because they may be trapped in a physical relationship that they have no desire for... it is possible in these circumstances to keep the purity of the mind, even if this is not possible in terms of the body. On the other hand, souls can outwardly be celibate, but indulge in all sorts of impure thoughts that no one but them is aware of... but this is hypocrisy and a sham... especially if they are telling others to be pure whilst indulging their own desires internally.

If a soul does fall into lust after being a yogi, it may never recover... and in terms of its spiritual life, that soul has died in that fall. But that doesn't mean that soul should be looked down upon, and judged by others... it just means that soul is playing its part in drama, and hopefully will enjoy the rest of its life on its new course. Some souls fall and get badly damaged, and smash their bones... but if they are determined enough, they can heal and get back on the spiritual path, and may be be a lot wiser and stronger having learned the lessons associated with the experience.

Coming back to the situation within the BKIVV... the rules have obviously slackened, because this is the times we live in... So many souls have passed through the doors of the BKIVV, and the souls entering now are not that interested in Shrimat at all, and the Dadis aren't that interested either. If they wish to stay rich and attract souls towards the university these days, they obviously have to allow these types of things to take place... but this is not Shrimat of course, it just reveals that the BKIVV has become tamopradhan, or totally degraded... a New Age shadow of its old self. I don't think it bothers the leadership too much at all, because the ideals they may have once had, have obviously become very diluted over the last 40 or so years... it's simply been a constant slide down hill since 1969. If souls are willing to bastardise Baba's Murlis for their own corrupt ends... then why would they be worried about slackening the rules on marriage etc,... especially if it keeps the money rolling in.
fluffy bunny wrote:I did not mean to dismiss PBKism as theoretical. I meant, I'd like to document closer who did what when so see how it all came about or fell to pieces. Things don't "just happen" ... someone makes them happen.
Yes, i appreciate where you are coming from fluffy, but just wanted to put my perspective on the matter. I think it would be quite hard to pinpoint key moments along the road that has led us to the situation that now exists in the BKIVV... but as Arjun Bhai said in a recent post... even Brahma Baba was soft on this point of Shrimat, and so did set a precedent even before the Dadis came to power. But where as Brahma Baba's motives would have been more innocent in nature... the Dadis and BK leadership are certainly not innocent, and their motivations are much more self serving and impure... they are business people... but they no longer deal in the business of sharing the jewels of knowledge... they are in the real estate business. The Brahmin Religion has gone the way of all religions, that get fat and bloated... and the original ideals get lost under layers of blubber.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Jul 2013

There is no where in The Knowledge™ where it says to "hate" marrying types, nor have I said so. Obviously, non-BK can do what the hell they like.

There is plenty in The Knowledge™ where it says to protect oneself from the influence of impure types whether through food or company. And there are very clear and distinct criticisms given regarding sex (murder), places which carry out and celebrate marriages (slaughterhouses) and, I would say, where Lekhraj Kirpalani accepted marriages it is clearly in the manner of accepting the individuals did not understand or value what was going on, or as a last refuge (e.g. better to marry then burn with lust).

I suppose we could use the pattern of the Advance Knowledge and propose that Baba was not talking about external, worldly temples, priest and so on ... but, instead, he was talking about such BK centers which carry out such activities.

I can accept the "evidence of decline within the BK family " equation ... but that clearly comes from PBKism rather than BKism where the BKs are seemingly convinced things are getting better and better. I think for me, Sita, there are two aspects;

a) Firstly, there is the inequality factor. There is clearly an unwritten system of privileges within the BKWSU, e.g. what a wealthy or serviceable White BKs might get away with is different from a poor girl in the back of Bihar.
b) Secondly, that the Maryadas themselves are now unwritten and unrecorded. You write amorphous, I say "malleable" (which means able to be bent or pressed permanently out of shape without breaking or cracking, easily influenced or pliable). The Brahma Kumari leaders bend and twist them to keep as much of any individual as they can.

It's no longer about individual's spiritual welfare or progress.

The trend I am seeing within the Western BKWSU is that it is increasingly becoming 'anything and everything' ... whichever way might be most [financially] beneficial or expedient (a means of attaining something that is convenient but considered improper or immoral). It's no longer clear what is BK and what is not BK. Within such a system, no one knows where they stand and can be constantly manipulated by the leader at the center who can keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves.

I was just reading a piece published by BK Publications which said, "It's OK to have a Mercedes and all modern gadgets ...".

It is also as system, as we have seen, that favours the bold and self-interested, exploits the weak and sincere, e.g. if one says, "to hell with this, I am going to sell my own books, paintings, "coaching" courses, promote myself, live in a nice house by myself and travel" then they seemingly will let you ... at least if there is something in it for them. If you are weak, in the eyes of the BK rulers and say, "what should I do ... how can I follow best" they will take as much of you as they can and you will be sleeping on the floor with 6 others until you die of TB.

They reward the first, therefore those are their real values.

c) Lastly, from a Brahmin point of view, that it sends a confusing message out to juniors, demi-BKs, or other outsiders. If the Brahma Kumaris now celebrate and giving blessings for marriages, as they do (perhaps they get a donation for doing so) what does it say to those individuals? If they can marry, why cannot we?

(It's impossible to deny the pressures put on the young Kumari slave girls not to allow boys near then and to think of relationships. Therefore you have a two or three class system with;
  • a) an autocratic, self-appointed royalty,
    b) surrounded by gifted courtiers being allowed privileges such as marriages, personal fiefdoms (property & rights granted by the BK overlords) so on,
    c) low ranking supporters who provide the bulk of financial support (e.g. the middle class Indian families), and
    d) a de-sexed Kumari slave class (mainly but not exclusively female), i.e. the cooks, servants, drivers and housekeepers. More eunuchs than celibates.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 01 Jul 2013

If you are to marry it is better you find some close minded person, that is what it is done. There is no power on earth that can stop you if you had decided to marry.

You see different status, because people follow to different extent. You don't agreee that someone marries and calls himself a BK. I think that the marrying types within the class of those who are center-in-charge are less, as they are seen as public figures and there is great care for the example they give.

I also don't think one can draw general conclusions, based on single facts. It is personal. What you can complain about is if marriage ceremonies are done within the centers, that it is not a place for this, but if the local community of the people attending the center agrees, then i don't see even using the center as some profanation, because it is simply a house, it is the people that matter and they have already accepted this. If the centers are seen as temples, temples are used for marriage, brahmins are used for marriage ceremonies. I don't imply some new business, but this has been going on. Many people have met their partner in the centers, they marry and leave together, because the atmosphere does not make it absolutely impossible for this to happen, people don't enter with such determination or they simply are tempted. I think based on the personal relationship with the center-in- charge and other BKs in the center, certain induvidual can find local social approval or dissaproval. Every situation is unique.

You may find following knowledge and marrying as contradiction, but if someone marries and still likes to follow, I think it is better than if he is not allowed to follow. BKs does not hold a trade mark, one can follow even without asking them, but because there are cases when one enters knowledge, being attrated by certain undividuals rather than the knowledge itself, then he sees associating with these individuals as continuation of their spiritual development.

You may see the effect of marriages being allowed as demoralizing, but certain discipline, if implemented through force and supression will lead to some harm and discipline should be taken by everyone voluntairily and personally. If the local BK society does not see something wrong with it, and if you as center-in-charge or a Dadi propagates how wrong it is, I think this is using of power of position and force. It is the same if you inspire isolation - you manipulate. Ideally it would be the principles that would unite people and there would not be difference in how these are interpreted and how they are put into practice by people. And the Dadis and those who are center-in-charge are not the sourse of that principles, so they don't have the authority to alter them. In this regard i accept that what BK means is constantly redefined, but also because whatever was considered as BK was not that accurate either.

Indeed practices are added that have little or no support in the Murlis and they are seen as BK trend, like for eg. exchange of drishti. It is because the leaders are themselves victim of their own interpretation, so this is how they will lead. This creates a tension by default between how you understand the knowldge and how the senior understands it and if the way you follow, as in harmony with your own understanding, clashes with the understanding of some or many, often society will like to overpower you by terming your understanding as manmat, but their unedrstanding is also manmat and parmat for you. You would hardly be able to follow as you think and I think problem comes with the senior being considered as authority over others and if someone likes to rob your own right to follow as you seem appropriate. They will just make you feel like not on your own place and will tell you that as long as you come here, you have to follow in the way it is followed and others follow, or leave.

Of course, if everyone starts following in their own way this could lead to chaos and the creation of a peacefull and harmonious, unified atmosphere is often the jutification of implementation of some principle. Ideally a senior would not be able to excersice power over others as there is one authority for all and he would be just like your equal fellow, not your boss. Practically people are deluded that following the senior is path to success, so they surrender their mind, but to people. They are often attracted by some BK to start with, for to enter the knowledge, but then they fail to see that there is something else that is behind this, and these are not the final authorities. Of course, if you put some senior by the wall, agains the Murli, he would probably just make it seems you are wrong. For the attitude of being a chosen one it is spoken about in the Murlis, but no God has ever chosen someone as center-in-charge, RCO, Director or President.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jul 2013

How about getting married to get a visa and cheat the immigration system ... is that allowed?

I would prefer to keep the discussion close to what the Knowledge says rather than any personal opinions. Everyone has an opinion but surely Shrimat is one.

Perhaps one element that you do pull out here is the mistake of presenting center-in-charges, zone-in-charges and even Dadi and Dids as if it means any great statuses.

I presume you still believe brahmacharya is still the highest path to the highest status?

If the BKWSU is now allowing this decline, for profit reasons, then how are the individuals who gave up the option supposed to feel?

I suppose fairness and equality are not BK qualities ...

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 02 Jul 2013

Yes, I don't see problem with marriage for visa, i don't see problem with many illegal activities, because I think the system is wrong. For example the visa system is discriminating.

If you like to know what the knowledge says you have to read Murlis and if you are interested in the advance knowledge you have to see vcds. If we say something is according to the knwoledge we like to put extra stress in what we say, but we cannot escape our own mind and i feel extra certainty that something is in the knowledge is cover for extra evangelism, dogmatism and extremism. Even if we use quotes, it is important how we understand and accept that and finally how we use that in practice, because it is said that this knowledge is not for speaking and it becomes effective when put into practice.

When we share our own opinion we can also give examples and in discussion, seeing many points of view we can reach to some common understanding of knowledge. By denying the right of one to share his own understanding i think some basic human right is supressed and atmosphere of fear is introduced. One should not fear to share his opinion. After all if he is wrong this is the way to find out. Problem arises when you like to impose your opinion on others.

Yes, titles only give some false ego. What are the indications of real high status? Maybe a high position of the mind will make matters of this world to seem small.

Regarding brahmacharya as higest path to highests status I can see you like to underline it is limited attitude, but you have to state what do you understand with brahmacharya and high status. For me, high status is the status of Lakshmi and Narayan. They are considered pure deities. How they have reached their status, what it means pure deities, if it is interesting for you we can discuss this.

With regards of brahmacharya you don't seem to value and hold such a high regard for the simple discipline of brahmacharya. My attitude is similar, but i value even less not following brahmacharya.

I don't have so low opinion on those who marry, because this is said to be the family path. I don't say this is the right method to become a deity couple, but i think following in a family is better than following like a sanyasi. In the knowledge it is said that in future the praise of couples will increase. In the PBK it is the couples who are made instruments to run the Gita patshalas. It is also said in the Murli that deities are revealed as couples. For me definition of brahmacharya is a definition of the state of the mind, renunciation of the pleasure of the sense organs, renunciation of the whole world with the mind. There is also a sikh definition of brahmacharya that is refered to in the Murli „Ek nari, sadaa brahmachari“, meaning that one woman means always brahmachari. In the Murli it is also said that to become impure is a law, but it is against the law to become impure with many and one has to become impure with one only. The classical definition of brahmachari is one who follows brahma.

I think everyone who choses not to marry and feels jealousy for someone who marries has not really chosen not to marry.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jul 2013

sita wrote:Yes, I don't see problem with marriage for visa, i don't see problem with many illegal activities, because I think the system is wrong. For example the visa system is discriminating.
That attitude towards the law is common and widespread amongst BKs. We could also relate it to the attitude of immigrants in foreign countries, they importation of their native country's lawlessness and corruption and their tenuous (very weak or slight) commitment and connection to their host nation's values.
By denying the right of one to share his own understanding i think some basic human right is supressed and atmosphere of fear is introduced. One should not fear to share his opinion. After all if he is wrong this is the way to find out. Problem arises when you like to impose your opinion on others.
No one is "denying" you your right to share your understanding ... you appear to ahve a tendency to take or portray things in an exaggeratively negative manner.

I would just take offence as personal opinion being expressed as if it was "The Knowledge". Therefore, I'd prefer to relate conversation to the original Murli quote and then add whatever one's own opinion might be. You can think and do as you please but the Knowledge should be the Knowledge.

It strikes me that many problems are arising because there is not adherence to the Knowledge and people are making it up as they go along.
I think everyone who choses not to marry and feels jealousy for someone who marries has not really chosen not to marry.
That is a fair enough point ... but I would have to question how much and how far individuals are allowed to and capable of making their own decisions. I don't think they are. I think most are ruled by fear and trying to compromise.

I just think that all BKs ought to have the same opportunities and disrespect the inequality factor. What does it all really say about the BK system?

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 02 Jul 2013

That attitude towards the law is common and widespread amongst BKs. We could also relate it to the attitude of immigrants in foreign countries, they importation of their native country's lawlessness and corruption and their tenuous (very weak or slight) commitment and connection to their host nation's values.
Which is this country where there is no corruption?
It strikes me that many problems are arising because there is not adherence to The Knowledge and people are making it up as they go along.
So you see following the knowledge as solution?
That is a fair enough point ... but I would have to question how much and how far individuals are allowed to and capable of making their own decisions. I don't think they are. I think most are ruled by fear and trying to compromise.
What do they fear?
I just think that all BKs ought to have the same opportunities and disrespect the inequality factor. What does it all really say about the BK system?
They see privileges as result of effort.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jul 2013

sita wrote:Which is this country where there is no corruption?
With India, it's always a question of scale. A 2005 study found that more than 62% of Indians had first hand experience of having to pay bribes in order to get jobs done by public officials. That's almost unthinkable in the West. I have never paid a bribe in my life.

Black money ... in 2012, the Central Bureau of Investigation said that Indians have $500 billion of illegal funds in foreign tax havens, more than any other country and yet it is one of the poorest per capita. Some reckon it is as much as 1.4 trillion USD are stashed in Switzerland and elsewhere. Similarly, look at the difference in tax paying. In India, about 3% of the population pay taxes and we know they don't pay all their taxes (35 million). In the USA, about about 45% of the population pays income taxes (144 million).

I think there are two issues holding India back; on one hand, corruption at all levels and, on the other, the waste of religious donation.

How far do this translate into the BK system or, from a PBK point of view, how much of this is a reflection on the BK movement? How far do the BKs use and milk the system?
So you see following The Knowledge as solution?
We're talking within the context of the BK world and primarily about the codes of conduct or Maryadas. Sure, if the BKs were doing what they were supposed to be doing, for them, and all playing the same game, they would create a lot less trouble for themselves.
What do they fear?
You think about it and you tell me ... Young girl with the system, center-in-charge, zone-in-center, Dadis above, changes her mind and wants out to stop coming to the center and leave ... are you saying there are not social pressures to conform?
They see privileges as result of effort.
What, do you mean if I am a good little BK and hook a VIP, then perhaps I might be allowed to marry? And only bad BKs have to keep getting up at 4 am?

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Re: Marrying types

Post by sita » 03 Jul 2013

It is the poverty that leads to corruption. People who are poor think that the system is no good for them, it does not care for them so they think they have to care for themselves.

I don't know how it translates to unlimited meaning. Maybe povery is with respect to virtues or knowledge. Corruption can be when BKs unoficially use advance knowledge.
We're talking within the context of the BK world and primarily about the codes of conduct or Maryadas. Sure, if the BKs were doing what they were supposed to be doing, for them, and all playing the same game, they would create a lot less trouble for themselves.
The trouble within the BK, between the BK and PBK or between the BK and the outside world is between following and not following the knowledge.
You think about it and you tell me ... Young girl with the system, center-in-charge, zone-in-center, Dadis above, changes her mind and wants out to stop coming to the center and leave ... are you saying there are not social pressures to conform?
One can also fear Destruction, Dharamraj. Surrender of young girls is done in the context that traditionally young girls will follow the parents. Now when times change individualism becomes stronger. It has been anyway underlined many times that following not out of your own wish does not bring benefit. When there are such cases i think most pressure would come from the family rather than the organization. Although you can enter or leave the organization, but you don't choose your family. Yes, within a family also people separate and don't see and talk to one another. If the family puts pressure to you then if it is not the BK, they will probably push you in undesired marriage or career.

It is said there are two kinds of brahmins those who move on their own and those who need a push. Although knowledge may become tool for control, but it is meant to elevate and liberate. One should have the free choice and the clear idea about what is the relation between acts and result and the freedem to act out of ones own will. Nothing is forbidden and if one acts with full responsibility for the consequences and realizes whatever comes to him is result of his own acts there is no reason to complain. Indeed there is social pressure, but it comes anyway when you change your life.
What, do you mean if I am a good little BK and hook a VIP, then perhaps I might be allowed to marry? And only bad BKs have to keep getting up at 4 am?
I don't know whether and how far marriages happen with the blessing of some senior. If one surrenders his life and ask about every matter and if he is said he can marry it is different, but often ones life is not 100% open and one lives in some mix of his own ideas and following, so it is different if one does this on his own accord.

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Re: Marrying types

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jul 2013

sita wrote:It is the poverty that leads to corruption.
I've just shown you how it is the wealthy and those who are chasing it that are most corrupt. I would say, as a rule, the poor are most honest and (relatively) most generous with what they have.
It is said there are two kinds of Brahmins those who move on their own and those who need a push.
Three types ... and those who don't move even when they are pushed.
I don't know whether and how far marriages happen with the blessing of some senior. If one surrenders his life and ask about every matter and if he is said he can marry it is different, but often ones life is not 100% open and one lives in some mix of his own ideas and following, so it is different if one does this on his own accord.
In the cases I know, it seems they individuals have done so secretly and at least partly to cheat the immigration system.

You've said from a BK point of view that is acceptable.

And on what basis do the Seniors agree to marriages? Historically, to cheat families into making them think their daughter is married and will be looked after by a man. In one case I know of, because it was good for money.

I'd like to see more cases documented and the Seniors asked why they decided as they did so that we can work out their rationale or code.


Obviously, I know of many other cases where the BK leaders have split up Western couples, especially when the couple were not "respectably" marriage. That is old Hindu cultural baggage and the motivation was a sort of "my goodness, what will the neighbours think!". (The same as when they did not like men with beards or long hair!!!). They were desperate to be what they thought was "respectable".

In the West, we have the tradition of consensual marriages ('common law marriages' or "living together"). We don't need some old rat bag or homosexual priest to say if we can live together or not. We leave it to the individuals to decide.

Why did not the Brahma Kumaris respect our traditions? (No response to that question required, it was certainly for no "spiritual" reason!).

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