The Murlis: Ownership, access to and re-writing of

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bkti-pit
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Post by bkti-pit » 23 Aug 2007

I totally agree with you John.

I had a few arguments with the sister-in-charge about it. She couldn't tell me what the logic was behind this but she wouldn't flex. She wouldn't dare disobeying strict instructions from the RCO.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:She couldn't tell me what the logic was behind this but she wouldn't flex. She wouldn't dare disobeying strict instructions from the RCO.
Its daft really. Is not that blind faith? Ah ... but I remember, blind faith is not blind faith if it is blind faith about "The Knowledge"; and fear is not fear if it is fear of the BKWSU SS ... that is the true meaning of unlimited liberation!

At the present we are basically giving them a chance to sort themselves out and do things in a dignified manner. There are enough sets of Murlis out there, so its just a matter of time and energy. They could just make our lives a little easier. Even BKs are asking for them, see here.

I do not understand why they just cant be honest and say why? Or smart. Let's face it, they are only setting themselves up to look really "cultie" and controlling if they hide them away. Its all about control and monopolizing the truth. Making sure the business comes into their pocket.

I think it is critical to protect the most-original-as-possible versions outside of the control of 'Raju Bhai Scissorhands'. But, equally, I think that to get stuck engaging with their siege mentality about "the Murli Cycle" is missing the purpose. Its not so much what is in those 5 years but what is in the other 30 odd years and said "off Murli". Imagine that 30 odd years, two class a day, group conversations, private meeting with Seniors ... a hell of a lot is missing and your average BK is being sold short for all they are putting into Gyan.

When I talk about "democratization", I am not bothered about or suggesting "one vote for all". Heavens forbid that the rights of the lower orders actually be empowered to that degree. But I certainly mean the democratization of information.
  • An equal empowerment and an opportunity for all through equal access to information.
BK 'Raju Bhai Scissorhands' considers careful
the next cuts to make in the one page Murli.

Image

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Post by bkti-pit » 23 Aug 2007

When I first became aware that the Murlis were edited I thought it was only to keep them shorter. I did not mind, assuming that they were just dropping out repetitions and minor stuff.

Later, I realized that they were actually chopping off whole sections on the premise that they could be offensive to some listeners. I was not happy with that. I remember comparing an older version with a more recent one and I was not happy to see that they had removed what I considered as punch lines. It was part of a general trend within the organization, a tendency to dilute the knowledge and shift away from the original truth. I thought I couldn't do anything about it and I just had to accept it and trust that I would get what I needed from the Murli anyway, which I did, I think.

However, considering the evidences that I found on this site, I am now suspicious of the real motives for editing the Murlis and I fully support a request to have access to the original unedited Murlis. I feel that I have been cheated.

How much did we really get anyway in terms of shortening the Murli after adding the essence, question, answer, essence for dharna, blessing and slogan?

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Post by john » 23 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:I had a few arguments with the Sister-in-charge about it. She couldn't tell me what the logic was behind this but she wouldn't flex. She wouldn't dare disobeying strict instructions from the RCO.
I think in this, the forum comes into it's own and matters can be challenged, out in the open and documented.
remember comparing an older version with a more recent one and I was not happy to see that they had removed what I considered as punch lines.
Is it possible for you to explain which bits were cut out?

I think it has been said on the forum, but aren't Murlis edited to a fraction of the original size? Something like original ones were, maybe, 6 pages and new edited versions are 2 pages.

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Post by bkti-pit » 23 Aug 2007

john wrote:Is it possible for you to explain which bits were cut out?
The "older" version was from the 80's whilst the newer one was from the early 90's, so it's not like we had something close to the original anyway and thus it was not that much shorter. This was some 15 years ago so, I don't remember the exact content of the deleted sections but they would have been lines where either Baba was using strong words like "today's children are like lizards and scorpions", or saying something strong about Dharamraj or that Destruction was inspired by God, etc.

As far as I remember, it was no big secret but maybe they felt it was not accurate to hear that on that particular day. I wouldn't mind if they want to add some explanation about the context, either in brackets or at the bottom of the page, but don't manipulate the Murli please. If Baba said it let me hear it and let me decide for myself how I want to understand it.

I find there is a lot of manipulation of the Murli when it is read also. When I hear the Sakar Murlis on tape, I have a totally different experience than when I hear it in our centers, even if I don't understand Hindi much. The tone and attitude with which it is read has a big impact, not to mention when the sister is mixing her own interpretation or trying to shoot bullets at someone ... If it cannot be rendered with the original feelings, at least give it straight.

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human rights

Post by alladin » 25 Aug 2007

Hi, Peter De! The sister I mentioned, luckily, is not my sic. I always had Murlis supplied to me by my NCO, or whoever was in charge, whenever I was traveling or since the center in the place where I live shot down. So, her behaviour never really inconvenienced me that much and I don't need to generalize due to some burn etc. However, precisely because I know many centers, and have visited Madhubhan and attended innumerable international retreats for 2 decades, I have been exposed to many situations and BKs throughout the world. This makes up my general experience.

I have many sic friends, usually mature, loveful, balanced souls and I have come across many ego tripping, power tripping fanatics; more on the "lawful side"! I have been center niwassi too, so I know how the system is and what's going on. There are rules, about lending or copying Murlis, as well as there are regarding many aspects of BK study and lifestyle, that are not totally rigid.

A lot has to do with the personality of the teacher and the relationship she has with the students. There are preferences, favouritisms and dislikes, just like in lokik schools. This shows for instance in cases such as; permissiom to go to Madhuban or attend a retreat. If the teacher "pushes" the cause, the student will get all the permission she needs.

Eating or sleeping at the center. Feeding or giving hospitality to BKs is discretional. A center usually has to feed and lodge a centerniwassi from another center but may refuse to to so anytime with any pukka BK. If a sic trusts and likes a student, whatever he/she does, she will present him in a certain light to SS. I have witnessed many times, how rules were less rigid for students and contact souls who were contributing with money and facilities to the center. So Sudama story often does not apply.

In some centers, they arrange Murli reading during lunchbreak or pm or evening, even daily, to meet the needs of souls who cannot make it for early morning class. Some centers have non-working, surrendered sisters who have plenty of spare time but don’t care to find extra time for this kind of sustenance.

As far as democracy, we have discussed it in different topics and I am sure we will do some more. Suppose we don't use the word democracy, there are still many hopes BKs put in the word and concept of "family" and that word conveys closeness, sweetness, communication and equality. In fact, I wrote "democratic sharing". By that I meant that decisions could be taken collectively; that can be done easily, especially in small centers, rather than one imposing them on others. It’s not very "royal" to use people to get help when needed, like slaves or mules or puppy dogs.

Every soul, as Baba says, has some intelligence and specialities which he can contribute with. Many sisters-in-charge use Murli points to beat people up as if using a stick, a sort of Kaliyugi mace. Many also have the tendency to take off in endless and questionable comments during the Murli and avoid any post Murli collective sharing or they monopolize it, making it into a lecture rather than an open discussion. Once they grab the gaddhi, they really think it’s a pulpit to preach from and often it’s just their manmat with all sorts of fantasies and hallucinatory nonsense which for the audience is parmat. They think they have got a greenlight to pollute people's minds.

One effect of that is shaming students and making them feel guilty. In reference to this, I wonder what you mean by "conquering my ego and everything will be alright, becoming completely humble". The issue of creating guilt, shame or feelings of inadequacy or inferiority in others, which goes totally against the idea of "empowering" and seeing qualities, has been discussed in several occasions on the forum.

I remember posting something in the "what’s the atmosphere in centers like?" topic at a time when some ex–BK friends had been sharing with me how they had internalized this feeling of “it’s always my fault, I am the one to blame”. Baba inspires us to be child and master not a doormats and claim our rights when necessary. So, this topic of Murlis, is about rights. Personally, I am a bit traditionalist and I don't think it should be extendable to any newcomer, but at least to Pukka BKs.

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Post by bkti-pit » 25 Aug 2007

Well said Alladin! I can relate to this 100%.

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Post by arjun » 07 Sep 2007

"Tum bachchey tape say bhi Baba kee Murli suntey ho. Bachchey chaahtey hain tape say ham akshar by akshar sunein. Jinko shauk hoga, paisey vaaley hongey, udaarchitt hongey toh auron kaa bhi kalyaan karengey." (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 16.07.07, pg 4)

“You children listen to Baba's Murli through tape (recorder) also. Children desire that they should listen word by word through tape (recorder). Those who are interested, those who are rich, those who are generous would cause the benefit of others too.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 16.07.07, pg 4 published by BKs, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and translated by a PBK)

Om Shanti. The above Murli point proves that even during the times of Brahma Baba, children used to prefer listening to recorded Murlis on taperecorders and they wanted to listen to Murli word by word. Such was the importance of every word of ShivBaba. So, with whose authority has almost half of those valuable versions of ShivBaba been cut/edited after the demise of Brahma Baba from the Yagya? And why is so much emphasis laid on the printed Murlis instead of the audio-recorded versions of ShivBaba's Murlis (in the voice of Brahma Baba)?????

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Is this website self-contradictory???

Post by master creator » 04 Oct 2007

No offence meant here ... but on one hand this website is saying that the Murlis are 'changed' and 'altered' and on the other hand it says that they need the Murlis to be made public. Why do you need them if you do not believe in them? Again ... please do not get offended by my query!!!

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Post by john » 04 Oct 2007

It is for ALL Murlis to be available including original copies, in that way anyone reading can see what was ShivBaba's original intention.

As for the why, I think God's word should NOT be diluted or tampered with. Any soul in the world with a bit of intelligence can see that, yet BK's choose to bury their heads in the sand, do devotion to SS and follow what they say.

My reason is the search for truth, which I believe will bring the only true salvation.

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Post by master creator » 04 Oct 2007

If original copies were available then they would have already given it right to students? The BKs say only 5 yrs. of Murlis are available and are in circulation and no one knows where are the other Murlis ... do you have any idea where they could be? Is it some secret in the drama? I am not questioning as to why they should or should not make changes ... perhaps I do not even know (with proof) as yet that there are changes being made - so I am not commenting on that front! What I was asking this website that if they are saying that the current Murlis are diluted then why are they making it available on their website??? Is it just to go against the BKs?
john wrote:As for the why, I think God's word should NOT be diluted or tampered with, any soul in the world with a bit of intelligence can see that, yet BK's choose to bury their heads in the sand and do devotion to SS and follow what they say. My reason is the search for truth, which I believe will bring the only true salvation.
I agree as any other soul. I too subscribe to the view that there should be no dilution or tampering. For this very reason I started the thread, "What is the truth?" so that we all can attain true salvation my brother!

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Re: Is this website self-contradictory???

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Oct 2007

master creator wrote:No offence meant here ... but on one hand this website is saying that the Murlis are 'changed' and 'altered' and on the other hand it says that they need the Murlis to be made public. Why do you need them if you do not believe in them? Again ... please do not get offended by my query!!!
What a disappointing and illogical post ... its verging on typical BK pompous non sequitur (Latin for, "it does not follow").

Who is "you" or "this website"? The individuals that leave note of gratitude for being able to find and read Murlis or summaries there are here, the active BKs that leave notes requesting Murlis because they cant get them from their center, they are in the army or old and weary etc, those on this forum that reference them in their discussions ... or those of us who wish to study them easily in total and detail?

And, in my own personal case but one that I am sure others follow too ... those of us who wish to challenge the self-elected BK elite that decide to chop and change them and hold them back from not just the world but also other BKs. In other words, those that assert their position of power over others through such control.

I think John is right, the request for the Murlis to be online was for the most original and complete versions (to which I would add all those numbered and dated "Divine Decrees" that they hid from us completely) and then new ones on top so that we could track how they are being edited over time. Why does the BKWSU need to be so secretive and controlling? Do they really think that 'God can do disservice to God' and needs protecting from himself???

All you did was make a false assumption, vast generalization and expose the limitedness of your thinking. Read the forum, the evidence is there. There are also other archive or original Murlis elsewhere in the world outside of the BKWSU control ... and they are re-writing them.

There is no one that makes me feel like they are a greater fool than someone that says, "there is no evidence" when they have their eyes closed and refuse to look at it. Likewise, the no one that makes me feel like they are a more arrogant than someone that says, "show me the evidence" making no effort themselves to find it. We can show you a few signposts, the rest us up to you.

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What are Forums, and what's equality?

Post by alladin » 04 Oct 2007

Brother Master Creator, this Forum, like many independent Forums you find on Internet. It is a facility through which people can exchange ideas. It is possible that majority of members have some opinion in common, but this doesn't mean that there's a partyline. Like there would not be a partyline on a windsfurfers' Forum or on a Forum for people who have travelled to Brazil and want to freely share info about that country.

Often those who are planning a trip to go there are asking some tips to those who have been there. So, on the ex-BK Forum there are democratically expressed ideas and aims that may not be homogeneous or may even - why not? - be in contrast with each other. Like it has been repeated many times, every poster represents himself only.

For sure, the common denominator that's visible is a personality trait that doesn't love uniforms or homologations. Thinking that the Forum is a solid unit or some sort of association is very dangerous, possibly is due to some typical programming, that creates the vision of the Forum as an "anti-BK" solid organization, and not a fluid, permanent assembly. A rainbow encompassing all nuances, some people being more or less distant or critical of the BK, Gyan, believing that BapDada is God or not or whatever.

Specifically regarding Murlis, some people, you know, care about principles. Being children of the Satguru, one can expect great love for clarity, honesty and transparency. It's in our DNA!! :wink:. Even though they may be labeled as being "anti". One principle is that truth and original documents should not be hidden or manipulated, because such action decreses the value of the documents and teachings contained in them. The other principle is that such info should be made more extensively available. Difficult concepts to be understood if someone is conditioned by Bhakti and the caste system.

Traditionally in religions, scriptures have been re-written and kept secret by the establishment, for negative purposes. Possibly because the divine truth, expressed through prophets and religious founders, always had the effect of empowering masses and making them stand up for their rights, creating generations of revolutionaries. So it has to be hidden, or falsified, or detained by a higher caste, protecting the interests of those in power. Same happening in the BKWSU, nothing new.

Finally, I really don't see the contradiction you are pointing out, since an edited Murli maybe better than nothing, at least one of the principles, that of equality, would be respected and the Yagya would have the chance to create a positive pattern and be of an example, differentiating itself from Bhakti.

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Post by arjun » 04 Oct 2007

master creator wrote:No offence meant here ... but on one hand this website is saying that the Murlis are 'changed' and 'altered' and on the other hand it says that they need the Murlis to be made public. Why do you need them if you do not believe in them? Again ... please do not get offended by my query!!!
Dear sister,

Om Shanti. Even though the Murlis are 'changed' and 'cut' by the BKWSU, still there is a lot for the faithful BKs in the current revised Murlis. So, even if the latest revised versions are uploaded on this site it would prove useful for faithful BKs.

Further, in order to prove our point of view, we PBKs generally quote from the recent Sakar Murlis being published by the BKs so that any BK wishing to confirm the genuineness of our claims could verify from the Murlis available at their centers/in personal record. There is a thread in the PBK section (points for churning) where we have quoted extracts from Sakar Murlis published by BKs and posed questions to the BKs/BKWSU to enable them to churn about the interpretation of those extracts.
If original copies were available then they would have already given it right to students? The BKs say only 5 yrs. of Murlis are available and are in circulation and no one knows where are the other Murlis ... do you have any idea where they could be? Is it some secret in the drama? I am not questioning as to why they should or should not make changes
They are most probably available in Madhuban (Mount Abu) and also in some of the BK centers (which might have carefully preserved the Murli records) or with old/senior BKs.
perhaps I do not even know (with proof) as yet that there are changes being made - so I am not commenting on that front!
If you could spare time to go through other pages of this thread, some examples have been quoted how Murlis have been altered/cut when compared to the original versions. There are many more proofs. It is only due to lack of time that we have not been able to provide all the proofs. If you can read Hindi, PBKs have published a compilation of such unaltered and altered Murlis. They are just photocopies of the unaltered and altered Murlis where one could see for himself the changes that have been made.

It is nice of you to admit that there should not be any alteration/dilution in the Murlis.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 04 Oct 2007

master creator wrote:If original copies were available then they would have already given it right to students? The BKs say only 5 yrs. of Murlis are available and are in circulation and no one knows where are the other Murlis ... do you have any idea where they could be? Is it some secret in the drama?
Why not ask your centre in charge or a Senior Sister? We on this site have made a formal request for Murlis to be available. The response - They commence legal action to shut down this site and forum.

Are you good at maths, then tell me if ShivBaba was speaking Sakar Murli since 1937-1969, as BKSWU claim and not just in the morning, evening class as well, how many Murlis does that make, compared to the 5 year cycle available?
I agree as any other soul. I too subscribe to the view that there should be no dilution or tampering. For this very reason I started the thread, "What is the truth?" so that we all can attain true salvation my Brother!
If you are serious about finding the truth and your salvation, then you will not want to miss one word of ShivBaba!

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