The Murlis: Ownership, access to and re-writing of

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mitra
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Post by mitra » 13 Dec 2006

:) Om Shanti,

The Sakar Murli represents the past words of Lord Shiva through the mouth of Brahma.

Actually the Murli cannot be distinguished as past or present. If you take any Murli it says "Manmanabhava" -meaning fix you mind on me!.

Actually only Murli's for 5 to 6 years are available and it gets repeated one after another. And you cannot even remember a Murli which you have read 1 year ago. So actually speaking one will not recognise it being repeated.

Some souls even don't get the daily Murlis due to their personal reasons. In that case it is not a harm to read a OLD Murli. All the Murli contains the essential MANTRA.

IBHS
MITRA

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john
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Post by john » 13 Dec 2006

OK, well no BK has piped up to say this is wrong. So I guess it's a fair assessment.

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tinydot
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Post by tinydot » 14 Dec 2006

John, perhaps Murli was revised or they think they revised the Murli last Kalpa, :lol:

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john
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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

Yes, to keep in step with last Kalpa they have to revise it again otherwise they would spoil the drama :lol:.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 14 Dec 2006

John wrote:Is it possible to get a reply from a Senior Sister as to why the BKSWU feels it necessary to alter Murlis?
They will never do it willingly unless they are directed by a Court or 'a trial by media' (which is more popular now a days in India as a method of getting justice). With the increase in number of independant TV news channels in India many of the issues of injustice have been solved thanks to the activism that has been shown by Print and Electronic Media.

Since the Media (especially the renowned newspapers/magazines/TV news channels) in India is unwilling or too obliged to take on a renowned organization like BKs, the truth is not coming out openly giving the BKs a chance to hide their violations of Shrimat. But that day is not far when the issues being discussed in this forum would be openly discussed in media and the BKs would have to face a trial.

Until then, we have this forum to discuss.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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john
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Post by john » 14 Dec 2006

But that day is not far when the issues being discussed in this forum would be openly discussed in media and the BKs would have to face a trial.
Is this timescale a human one or the infamous Godly timescale :D.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 15 Dec 2006

John wrote:Is this timescale a human one or the infamous Godly timescale .
Dear brother,
Om Shanti. Since it is my personal assessment, this timescale is definitely a human one, but it could be cut short if like-minded people make an effort. :lol: :D :P

And of course this trial would bring out the strengths and weaknesses of the PBKs also into open. PBKs and Baba Virendra Dev Dixit have already passed through this trial by print media (although limited to the Northern India) once in 1998. Many PBKs left the fold under the impact, but the PBK family and its activities have only grown manifold after that. PBKs have also undergone trial at international level through xbkchat and BKInfo, but it is for you friends to judge and give opinion. :?:

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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tinydot
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Post by tinydot » 15 Dec 2006

arjun wrote:PBKs and Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit have already passed through this trial by print media (although limited to the Northern India) once in 1998.
What trial was this? Just curious.

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Post by arjun » 16 Dec 2006

tinydot wrote:What trial was this? Just curious.
Dear brother,

This question has been answered in some of the threads on xbkchat as well as BKInfo in the past, but for your information I would like to repeat that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit was arrested from the small village Kampil, which is the traning center for PBKs, initially on the charges of theft of electricity, to which many more false cases including rape charges were added by some former PBKs, who were aided and abetted by some more persons/entities behind the scenes and he was lodged in a jail for about 3-4 months. He has been acquitted of charges in most of the cases so far. A couple of cases might still be going on because those who made the allegations could not either prove it nor attend the courts. In India even petty cases take many years to get solved.

Yesterday a retired Police Officer of Delhi Police has been sentenced to death by hanging for beating a 19 year old boy with iron rods in custody about 20 years ago, leading to his death the next day in the hospital.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by khormozian » 18 Dec 2006

John wrote:I am starting to get the impression from BKs who have posted on this forum that Sakar Murlis (Murlis written whilst Brahma Baba was still in the corporeal world) are not that important in the BKworld anymore. They generally don't seem to care whether they are rewritten, bits taken out, sentences altered to give different meanings.
I am not an official spokesperson for the BKWSU but I can tell you my personal opinion that rewriting of the Murli is not acceptable to me in the slightest. I've touched on the subject to various people at our centre (and other nearby centres), who are pretty free thinkers as BKs go, and very few of them feel as strongly as I do about it.

On January 16th of this year, I actually brought it up in Murli class. There was a line where Baba mentioned that there were 6 billion souls. I immediately perked up my ears and raised my hand to ask a visiting sister who was in class that day to tell us what it said in the Hindi copy of the Murli. She said it did not use a number at all: the quote was something like "In 5000 years, there are exactly these many billions...". It stimulated a good discussion in class (or after class, I cannot remember) where some suggested that the mistranslations were either unimportant or not mistranslations at all but sanctioned by Baba. However, no one had an official line on it.

I brought it up to sister Denise that I did not think it was right that the Murli could be changed and "brought up to date" and she told me that she couldn't speak for the translations but that in the original Murli, Baba has only ever used one number: 6.5 billion.

Even the souls who acknowledged that there was a problem disagreed with me about what to do with that information. They felt that getting worked up about it wasn't going to lead to a solution and that you need to find a way to work within the system. One day, maybe I'll figure out how to do that :D.

With the exception of a handful of people, no one else felt that there was anything insidious about the revisions. If this is the only time we get to hear the untainted work directly from God, I cannot begin to understand how anyone can simply accept this. As much as I know it's not terribly soul conscious to feel this way, I am disgusted by the acceptance of doctoring of the Murli.

Regards, Kurosh

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tinydot
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Re: BKs and Sakar Murlis

Post by tinydot » 18 Dec 2006

John wrote:They generally don't seem to care whether they are rewritten, bits taken out, sentences altered to give different meanings. Is this a fair assessment?
Whether it's the word of God or not, it is in principle DISHONESTY (If you believe in Universal Principles at all). You may not change a written document PERIOD. All one can do is to release the actual information and let the reader or listener decide and interpret on the validity of the orginal written document. In this "Dawkinian" (hate to say "Darwinian") world, people play the role of cheats to protect their own vested interests.

If you consider the Morality (choose the lesser evil) of it, you need to be really convinced, that it is the lesser evil to change the Murli, but is it??? It would not really hurt anyone if they found out the actual wordings on it ... they may just leave or their hearts get broken. :cry:

~tinydot

P.S. here's a song for this theme, music please...
  • If you search for tenderness
    it is not hard to find.
    You can have the love you need to live.
    But if you look for truthfulness
    You might just as well be blind.
    It always seems to be so hard to give.

    Honesty is such a lonely word.
    Everyone is so untrue.
    Honesty is hardly ever heard.
    And mostly what I need from you.

    I can always find someone
    to say they sympathize.
    If I wear my heart out on my sleeve.
    But I don't want some pretty face
    to tell me pretty lies.
    All I want is someone to believe.

    Honesty is such a lonely word.
    Everyone is so untrue.
    Honesty is hardly ever heard.
    And mostly what I need from you.

    I can find a lover.
    I can find a friend.
    I can have security until the bitter end.
    Anyone can comfort me
    with promises again.
    I know, I know.

    When I am deep inside of me
    don't be too concerned.
    I won't as for nothin' while I am gone.
    But when I want sincerity
    tell me where else can I turn.
    Because you're the one I depend upon.

    Honesty is such a lonely word.
    Everyone is so untrue.
    Honesty is hardly ever heard.
    And mostly what I need from you.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2006

khormozian wrote:I brought it up to Sister Denise that I did not think it was right that the Murli could be changed and "brought up to date" and she told me that she couldn't speak for the translations but that in the original Murli, Baba has only ever used one number: 6.5 billion.
Thanks for continuing to post K. If the Hindi version is right, it is better for BKs all round.

That is an interesting quote from Sister Denise, I wonder if you could get her to put it into writing ... on one hand, it confirms that the Murlis have been edited for 20 years or so, because they used to say 5.5 Billion and on the other hand it contradicts the teaching posters from the 60s, when Lekhraj was alive that say 5 Billions.

My feeling is that the originals should be made available for those that wish to study them and put the development of Gyan into context and that they be annotated to explain what is going on. Imagine if Christianity offered the 'American Standard Bible' but refused anyone access to the original scrolls. There would be uproar.

A Wiki, (there are some Murlis in the Encyclopedia section), is a perfect device for doing this because all the edits can be connected together; original ... first English ... first 5 year cycle ... second 5 year cycle ... and so on. So one can watch the way it changes. It would go a long way in redeeming the BKWSU in my mind. A university should have a theology wing.

And I'd like to see the pre-'5 years' stuff.

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mitra
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Post by mitra » 18 Dec 2006

Om Shanti,

Sakar Baba is telling the children to bring the chart to him so that he can check it. This was said before 1969. Not since Avyakt baba is present only for a few hours, it is not possible to present him the chart physically. So you can place before him mentally. Baba can understand eveything in one second.

Once again, i would like to say that all Sakar Murli's must be read by tuning ones mind before 1969.

IBHS
mitra

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Post by bansy » 18 Dec 2006

Dear Brother Mitra
Mitra wrote:it is not possible to present him the chart physically. So you can place before him mentally. Baba can understand eveything in one second.
Seems confusing. Could you clarify this point. Does this mean God can be anywhere, omnipresent ? After all, according top the Murli (Gita per se), He comes into a Chariot to communicate with His children with his eyes, ears and hands. If we can communicate with Him mentally, that means there is no need for Him to come, yet the Confluence Age is not yet over, so why have BapDada meetings ?

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 18 Dec 2006

Sister Bansy,
Om Shanti. I agree with you that if the souls could contact Supreme Soul mentally then where was the need for Him to come on Earth at the first place? And when He did come, He did not come to leave His children mid way; it is the shortsightedness of our intellect that we are thinking Him to have returned to the Soul World or the Subtle Region.

Mitra Bhai, kindly consider the following Murli point:

"Yah makaan aadi sab tum bachhon nay apney liye banaaye hain. Yah kiskee jaageer nahee, yah toh temporary hai kyonki ant samay bachhon ko yahaan aakar rahnaa hai. Hamaara yaadgaar bhi yahaan hai. Toh pichaadi may yahaan aakar vishraam lengey. Baap kay paas bhaagengey vah jo yogyukta hongey. Unho ko madad bhi milegi. Baap kee bahut madad miltee hai. Tumko yahaan baith vinaash dekhnaa hai. Jaisey shuru may Baba nay tum bachhon ko bahlaaya hai. Fir pichaadi may bahlaaney shuru karengey. Bahut pyaar karengey. Jaisey Vaikunth may baithey hain, bahut nazdeek hotay jaayengey." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.06.06, pg 3)

· “You children have constructed all these buildings, etc. for yourself. This is not anybody's estate (jaagir). This is temporary because children have to come here and stay in the end. Our memorial is also here. So (children) would come here and take rest in the end. Those who are yogyukta (i.e. those who remain immersed in Baba's remembrance) would run to meet Father. They would receive the help also. A lot of help is received from Father. You have to sit here and witness destruction. Just as Baba has entertained you children in the beginning; He would start entertaining you once again in the end. He would shower a lot of love. (Children would feel) as if they are sitting in heaven. They would keep coming very close.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.06.06, pg.3 published by BKs)

Baba is telling that just as Baba has entertained you children in the beginning, He would start entertaining you once again in the end. He would shower a lot of love. If we consider your words to be true then the above words of God Shiv should be false. Now don't say that the above Murli point is also applicable to the period before 1969 because it talks about the last period, which I don't think has arrived as on date.

You would say that God Shiv would sit in Paramdham and cause divine visions. But the above point says that children would run to meet the Father and take rest at Madhuban and get entertained by Him just as in the beginning. In the beginning of the Yagya also divine visions were caused but the spiritual mother and Father were also present practically. So definitely in the end also the spiritual mother and Father should be practically present.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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