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shivsena
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ShivBap's Murlis : To whom are they addressed ?

Post by shivsena » 26 Dec 2006

Dear brothers.

My churning about ''who are the souls to whom the ShivBap's Murlis are addressed".

When ShivBap spoke the Murlis through' Dada Lekhraj brahma before 1969, was He speaking to the souls sitting in front of him only or was He speaking to only the immortal 108 seed-souls of rudramala who were going to come in future and read the revised Murlis after 1969. All souls who do the basic course or the Advance Course, are they all going to take full 84 births or some are going to take 83; some will take 82 and so on and so forth; so actually only those immortal children who will take full 84 births in 5000 years, will understand the Murlis and those souls who take lesser births will just listen to Murlis but will not understand their true meaning.

My churning says that, all the Murlis were always spoken in third person and not to the souls sitting in front; nor is Bindi ShivBap describing Himself when he is speaking the word "Father" or "ShivBaba" or ''parampita paramatma"; Supreme Soul Shiva(bindi) never wants glory for himself; His job is to give subtle hints in the Murlis about the no.1 soul Ram who in fact is the 'supreme' amongst all the human souls and Ram's soul by his own sheer effort will become like Shiva(100% incorporeal stage) and will be revealed in front of the world as living Ramshivbaba. Since it it has been said in Murlis "apne miya mitto nahin ban-na" (meaning that ''never sing your own praises" or ''never blow your own trumpet") do you think that in each and every Murli when ShivBap is singing the praises of ShivBaba or Father or bap; is he blowing his own trumpet or is he singing the praises of Ramshivbaba who by his own effort will eventually become 100% incorporeal stage like ShivBap.

So when Shiva through' brahma delivers Murlis before 1969 He emerges only those 108 children (true PBKs) who are going to remain immortal in this very birth and will be revealed as angels (farishtas) to the world and who will become bap-samaan(like Ram bap) and reveal the Father Ram ; because ShivBaba comes to give the boon of immortality only those children who will recognise the immortal Father Ram and who will take full 84 births along with Ram's soul; He is never emerging and talking to those souls who are going to leave their bodies at the time of destruction. The Murlis are directed to only those immortal seed souls who are going to take full 84 births, who recognise the 100% incorporeal stage of Rambap, who will survive the destruction and reveal Ramshivbaba.

So keeping this fact in mind, if one reads the Murlis now, then one will clearly see that even though Supreme Soul Shiva is speaking in mount abu in front of the BKs, his words are directed towards the immortal souls of the Advance Party who have recognised the Father Ram, (in whose body Shiva is present) and ShivBap is giving a running commentary through Dada Lekhraj Brahma, of what is going to happen in the future auspicious Confluence Age at the end of this behad ka drama.
This is what i feel.
shivsena.

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Post by andrey » 26 Dec 2006

Dear brother,

Yes, I know the Supreme Soul only speaks to his children which are the ones who take 84 births, because they are the ones to study directly from Him, means when He is in a body. I don’t know if it is right to say ShivBap’s Murli, because ShivBap is just a point and the Murli will stay merged in this point and until and unless He comes and speaks He becomes ShivBaba, isn’t it.

He has spoken the Gita through Dada Lekhraj and this Gita is for the whole world, for all the religions. These Murlis are basis for the basic knowledge and basis for the advanced knowledge. It is to this Gita that many interpretations are given. But advanced knowledge – for the advanced children is given by ShivBaba. If everyone could read the Murli on his own to discover his own advanced knowledge then it would become many opinions again – but what we aim is one opinion. That’s why there is only one teacher and numberwise students. Yes, we also teach, but we teach to the extent and whatever we have learned from the teacher. To the extend we give our own opinion, we become form of Ravan and cause other people’s downfall by turning them away from the true knowledge, by misleading them with our own false knowledge.

And if it was only for those after 1969 – why should he come earlier. Why not come after 1969. He has also come before – in the beginning.

I believe that we are not able to understand what is meant in the Murli without being explained. Then we may understand. But the one who explains – who is the one who explains? He is ShivBaba (the teacher), he is also the Father and the Satguru. He is the one who knows. He is the one who used to have spoken through Dada Lekraj and the one who used to plant seeds of knowledge in the beginning of the Yagya in his intellect. Yes, there are two unlimited fathers, but out of the two who is the knowledgeful and teaches, if it were the soul of Ram he would have thought before the soul of Shiva comes.

If we sing the praise of the soul of Ram – that he is ShivBaba – then we sing praise of a human being or of a deity, but it is only God’s praise, that he makes human beings into deities. In the Murli it is said that it is only ShivBaba’s praise.

My opinion is we should not sing our own praise because it is not our praise and we are not immune to praise and defamation. The soul of Shiva comes and does sing his own praise because He knows it is His praise only. He just does not eat that praise, but someone else – like what you say – who does it – and who eats the praise. You start praising the bodily being. So he eats the praise. But it is correct to say that it is the praise of the soul of Shiva when he enters and teaches us to sing His praise and not the praise of someone else. Otherwise whose words are – I have to come for you, I have to purify you, I have to take you back. Are these words of the soul of Ram? But these were spoken through the body of Dada Lekraj. He, the soul of Shiva in the body, should sing his own praise because we don’t know it. It is an introduction. It is to turn us to Him, because we are used to sing the praise of many or to the wrong one.

This way I believe the Murlis are addressed for the whole world, for all souls, because he is Father to all, but since he cannot talk to all 6 billions he talks to few and these few has the task to bring others on front of him. Then because of their weakness or the weakness of others, these others start believing that the praise is of these few, the knowledge comes from them. This way they hide the real source, reveal themselves and deprive other souls from real attainment from the source so that they become greater than others. Maybe it is not the every case. And ShivBaba is egoless and innocent he does not choose. Everyone has a chance. Yes, he knows few takes the chance (only these who take complete 84 births), but he is open to all, isn’t it. There are no restrictions of color, stage, country, age, we don’t know our own births so there is no restriction in that too. I don’t know if all who study take complete 84 births, however it is not to make someone superior and inferior. Our aim is to make our vision equal like his, it is knowledgeful vision that everyone has a part.

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Post by john » 27 Dec 2006

bansy wrote:Re : Murli Point 31 - this may have been answered elsewhere but what are the signs that the soul of ShivBaba has entered a Chariot/body ?
Actually, I think there has only been one solid continuous answer to this and that is 'when knowledge is spoken'. Which then leaves us then to decide whether this is true knowledge from God or not. Having tried to find an answer for quite a while, I don't see any other answer apart from the above coming forward.

For BKs, it is straight forward in that when BapDada is present for AV, then the signs are obvious. But on further investigation it seems that it wasn't obvious when Brahma Baba was in Sakar form and Sakar Murlis were given. I am left with the impression that the chariots do not know themselves when Shiva is present or not.

I think it's about refining the questions to get to any kind of answer.

One answer I would like to know is, do/did the chariots themselves know when Shiva was speaking or when they are/were speaking? Yes, it has been established they don't know when Shiva enters or leaves, but at the time of giving Gyan do they actually know who is speaking?
  • Is it themselves speaking knowledge and being inspired to speak things of Gyan?

    Or are they in the background and aware that another entity is speaking?

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Re: Poll : Free Access to Murlis

Post by abrahma kumar » 05 Jan 2007

admin wrote:
  • Please vote!
• Poll : as a Brahmin soul, do you think that you should have free access to Murlis via the internet?

Welcome to our first poll, one that has arisen from out of the desire of forum members, Brahmin Souls, to be able to search and study original and edited Murlis.

There is a sense of shock that the Seniors BKs within BKWSU denies these from the public view by password protection, PGP encryption and other security systems. It has also been a revelation to discover that they are being re-edited by human beings - instead of revised. This too has also not being made public nor originals made available for comparison.

As an example of how easily searchable, electronically published Murlis might appear, see ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... akar_Murli

Anonymous donations of Murlis to both the BrahmaKumaris.Info Encyclopedia or up and download section is very welcome and these can be made instantly public, see below ;(a) How to cast your vote and, (b) privacy and security.

With regards to (a) it is simple. When you log on to the thread, you are given the choices on which to cast your vote. When you've clicked your choice and submitted it thereafter, the results in percentage of the poll, including your vote, is shown.

With regards to (b), you cannot cast another vote again even if you try to log in again. Votes are securely recorded against member IDs by the server software in order to stop users voting more than once and attempting to falsify results.

No record is held of which votes were cast by which members nor any access given to voting records, even to administrators.

For further confirmation, please contact the developers at ; http://www.phpbb.com/

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Post by arjun » 22 Jan 2007

Dear All,
Om Shanti. This is what Avyakt BapDada has said in the latest Avyakt Vani dated 18th January, 2007 (page no.5) regarding Murlis:

"Lekin BapDada khush hain ki sabhi ko Murli say pyaar hai aur Murli say pyaar arthaat murlidhar say pyaar. Koi kahey murlidhar say toh pyaar hai lekin Murli kabhi-kabhi sun letey hain, BapDada kahtey hain BapDada uska pyaar, pyaar nahee samajhtey hain. Pyaar nibhaana alag hai, pyaar karnaa alag hai. Jisko Murli say pyaar hai vah hai pyaar nibhaaney vaaley aur Murli say pyaar nahee toh pyaar karney vaalon kee list may hai nibhaaney vaaley nahee. Madhuban may Murli baajey, Madhuban ka gaayan hai. Madhuban kee dharnee ka hee mahatwa hai. Achha."

"But BapDada is happy that everyone loves Murli and love for Murli means love for the murlidhar (literally it means 'beholder of the flute', but here it refers to the narrator of Murlis, i.e. ShivBaba). Someone may say that we love murlidhar, but we listen to Murlis sometimes; then BapDada says that BapDada does not consider his love to be love. It is one thing to sustain the love and another thing to just love. The ones who love Murli are the ones who sustain the love and if there is no love for Murli then they are included in the list of those who just love; they are not the ones who sustain the love. The flute is played in Madhuban; Madhuban is famous. There is importance of the land of Madhuban only. Achha."

BapDada must also be aware that there are many of his children who wish to read/listen to Murli everyday, but they do not have access to it, or are being denied access some other children.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: The English translation has been done by a PBK. If someone has the official English translation released by the BKs, we could read the official version.

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Post by bansy » 22 Jan 2007

The same BK offical script (Avyakt Vani dated 18th January, 2007 (page no.6) .
This was spoken when BapDada was addressing the Indian Youth groups.

"However BapDada is happy that everyone has love for the Murli, and to have love for the Murli means love for the Murlidhar (the one who is playing the Murli flute). If someone says that they have love Murlidhar but he only hears the Murlis sometimes, BapDada would say: BapDada does not consider that love to be love. To fulfil the responsibility of love is different from just loving. Those who have love for the Murli are the ones who fulfil the responsibility of love, and those who don't have love for the Murli are in the list of those who just have love; they are not in the list of those who fulfil the responsbility of love. The memorial of Madhuban is that the flute is played in Madhuban. The land of Madhuban has importance. Achcha."

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Post by arjun » 22 Jan 2007

Sister Bansy,
Thanks for the quotation from the original AV published by BKs in English.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 24 Jan 2007

sparkal wrote:The BKs need to consider whether they should be willing to compromise a little and work on other people's terms rather than their own, sorry, Baba's. Oh well, that's it then, we are all wrong and they are exclusively right.
As long as every one knows they are holding back so-called God's teachings behind password, lock and key; it won't take long for their prospective market to start asking questions and start losing respect. I think the real issue is that the BKWSU canot afford to risk clean, fresh, unfettered intellects investigating the Murlis on their own. I think you are right. It is all about protecting their position rather than allowing others to grow.

When you have stuck around these forums as long as I have, and heard all the stories of how individuals have in all continents have suffered under the wisdom of these 'wise, advanced souls' it would make any commonsense individual prick up their ears and wonder what is going on inside the BK Ivory Towers.

My question is, how dumb are they that can they sit their continuing to do this KNOWING, BELIEVING ... or at least drumming into others ... the whole concepts of Dharamraj!?! With apologies to Jagdish Chander and middle-period Purity magazine ...
  • Scene: Somewhere in the queue for Dharamraj (Judgement Day).

    Baba: "So, how did spread my Knowledge Maureen child?"
    Maureen: "Oh, by stopping Brahmins souls have access to the Murlis ( ... so they only had novels left to read)!"
    Baba: "And you Janak, how did you look after the inheritance I gave you and guide others towards the truth?"
    Janki: "By allowing brothers to re-write and edit off Murli points and after encouraging all BKs to worship Lekhraj Kirpalani, by allowing my bhagats to put my picture on his "Brahma Baba Day" posters!"
    Maureen and Janki: " ... but its OK, Baba ... we did it in your Rememberance ... so that's OK, is not it".
    Baba: "!?!?!?!?!?! ... Next."
arjun wrote:"But BapDada is happy that everyone loves Murli and love for Murli means love for the murlidhar (literally it means 'beholder of the flute', but here it refers to the narrator of Murlis, i.e. ShivBaba). Someone may say that we love murlidhar, but we listen to Murlis sometimes; then BapDada says that BapDada does not consider his love to be love. It is one thing to sustain the love and another thing to just love. The ones who love Murli are the ones who sustain the love and if there is no love for Murli then they are included in the list of those who just love ..."

BapDada must also be aware that there are many of his children who wish to read/listen to Murli everyday, but they do not have access to it, or are being denied access some other children.
Ha! And how will the Dadis explain their position of withholding the Murli and obstructing that love?

Bartering access to the Knowledge in exchange to obeisances to them, their Will and their lackies like the business people they are, in my opinion?

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Who owns the Murlis

Post by john » 03 Feb 2007

Are they legally owned by anyone?

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Re: Who owns the Murlis

Post by abrahma kumar » 03 Feb 2007

John wrote:Are they legally owned by anyone?

BKWSU copyright's affixed to every Avyakt Murli Book so one would have to assume that were the Sakar Murli's to be compiled in the same format the organisation would adapt a similar approach. This seems to indicate that the BKWSU either feels that the Murli BELONGS to them or is entrusted to THEM AND ONLY THEM by God (caretakers turned Owners). If those documents are truly what the organisation professes them then I think that they belong to all humanity.

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Post by arjun » 04 Feb 2007

Om Shanti. Yes, the compilations of Yearwise Avyakt Vanis narrated through BK Gulzar Dadiji and published by BKs in recent years bear the copyright mark. I don't think they would ever copyright the Sakar Murlis because the Sakar Murlis are printed merely on small papers without any address or official stamp. And these Sakar Murlis have been changed every five years since 1969. So which set of 5 years' Murlis would they copyright?

I have seen the Avyakt Vani compilations purchased by my BK friends even this year (the last compilation being 2005-2006). All the books are titled 'Avyakt Vani' and not 'Avyakt Murli' which is the word being commonly used by BKs and ex-BKs to denote the narrations of Avyakt BapDada through BK Gulzar Dadiji. It would be interesting to know by what name have the BKs been publishing the compilations of Avyakt Vanis in English? If the compilations in English are also titled 'Avyakt Vani' then it proves that a deliberate attempt is being made by BK establishment to rename 'Avyakt Vani' as 'Avyakt Murli'. In the words of Avyakt BapDada himself, there is a difference between the versions spoken by him (Avyakt Vani) and the versions spoken by God Shiv through Brahma Baba (Sakar Murli). The former is just a spiritual chit-chat of a spiritual mother with the children and the latter are the words spoken by the Supreme Father Shiv through Brahma which has a magical effect. Avyakt Vani is a prose and Sakar Murli is a poetry.

Regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

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Post by khormozian » 04 Feb 2007

arjun wrote:It would be interesting to know by what name have the BKs been publishing the compilations of Avyakt Vanis in English?
The name on the compilations is Avyakt BapDada in English.

Regards, Kurosh

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Post by shivsena » 04 Feb 2007

arjun wrote: And these Sakar Murlis have been changed every five years since 1969. So which set of 5 years' Murlis would they copyright?
Dear arjun Bhai.

Since you have raised this point of Murlis being repeated every 5 years since 1969, i would like to know which are these 5 years before 1969, of which Murlis are repeated; because i still have not a single xerox of Murli before the death of Mama Saraswati in june 1965.

All i have are the xerox copies of Murlis from june 1965 to jan 1969; none of the BKs or PBKs have the copies of Murlis before june 1965; nobody knows why is this so?; the duration from june 1965 to jan 1969 is just 3 1/2 years; so how is the remaining one and a half-year accounted for; this is what i want to know.

shivsena.

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Post by arjun » 05 Feb 2007

Dear Shivsena Bhai,

Om Shanti. What I know is that the BKs have a record of 5 years Sakar Murlis narrated during the times of Brahma Baba. But I do not know the exact years to which these Murlis pertain.

You may be correct in your statement that PBKs possess the copies/originals of the Murlis published by BKs between 1965 to 1969, but I had seen one or two Murlis published by the BKs in December, 2005 (I cannot recall the exact dates) in which they had also mentioned the original dates (of 1950s) when those Sakar Murlis were originally narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba. So, I guess the BKs have the original dates of most of the Sakar Murlis, but do not wish to mention it in the revised Sakar Murlis published after 1969 due to the fear of BKs/PBKs asking for the copies of the original documents.

One thing which can be done is collecting all the original audio cassettes/audio cds of the Sakar Murlis in the voice of Brahma Baba and documenting the dates mentioned in those Murlis. I remember that in most of these audio cassettes of original Murlis, which used to be played every Thursday at Mount Abu, Madhuban, BK Chandrahaas Bhai (with a femnine voice) used to mention the date before the commencement of the Murli class. Just as PBKs have started a website in which hundreds of audio files and many video files of clarification Murlis (narrated by ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) have been uploaded, we can upload the audio files of the Sakar Murlis narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba. I am sure every BK or former BK (including PBKs/ex-PBKs) must be having some or the other audio cassette or audio cd of Sakar Murlis in Brahma Baba's voice. But again the issue of copyright may arise because the BKs have copyrighted all these audio cassettes and audio cds of ShivBaba's Murlis. If this happens, then it will bring the members of this site in direct confrontation with the BK administration. It would be interesting to know the reaction of BKs to this proposal.

It has been more than a decade since I last went to Mount Abu, I don't know if the practice of playing the original audio cassette is followed even now or whether it has been abandoned. One thing which used to surprise me is that while this practice was followed in Mount Abu, it was not followed in most or any BK center outside Mount Abu. I don't know why the BK administration did not encourage the practice of listening to the original audio Murlis (even if it is considered to be second class in Baba's own words) and why they encouraged the narration of the third class Murlis (i.e. the printed Murlis) and the narration of non-Murlis (like Janaki Dadi's classes) at many centers?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by mr green » 06 Feb 2007

I still have an old Avyakt book from before bk publications was set up as an independent business from the BKs,

On these books and tapes it clearly stated that these can be copied and distributed free to anyone ... oh, the days of Shrimat!

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