Karma

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bansy
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Karma

Post by bansy » 17 May 2006

Karma - this topic will never go away ... because it is precisely that :lol:

1. When did the first drop of poison come from after the Golden and Silver Age ? If all was perfect before that, then how does nature get degraded in the first place ? That means there IS poison within the Golden Age and Silver Age ?

2. If everything which is now negative in Kaliyug is created by the degrading nature of humans, then is not anything and everything that we use nowadays a result of all human working and thus we are all succumbed to be interconnected to this negative karma ?

For example, if airplanes and airlines were created from improvements in science to make it easier to travel which seems to be a good thing but these airlines are now making fat cat profits to feed the greediness of its directors. Then anyone who takes a flight has paid indirectly into the pockets of these directors, who by the way also smoke and drink. Therefore your money has paid and fed into their vices and hence you've also committed those vices too, albeit indirectly.

So how can you create positive karma ? Dadi's ... don't travel?

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Post by mr green » 21 May 2006

i think the bk version of karma ideas is too confusing. All that sukarma vikarma business ... let alone the idea of karmic accounts ... creation and settlement ... then settlement through suffering or yogic clearance.

Twaddle as usual.

To me karma is just simple, energy created attracts energy ... or something :lol:

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Post by bansy » 21 May 2006

i think the bk version of karma ideas is too confusing, all that sukarma vikarma business.... karma is just simple, energy created attracts energy
I agree though not too bothered about karma => action + reaction or karma => cause + effect etc because nowadays, karma does has some basic logic for everyday application, the harder you throw a stone in the air and then catch it the more it'll probably hurts, as per se. We can apply it today because there are positive and negative things so the sum of all things balance out.

What is confusing is if Golden Age is perfect, deities are perfect, on day 0.0.0 and there is "no karma", will all negativity eliminated, there are no stones to throw, then who or what did the first naughty act ? Is this just a mischevious drama ? So God puts an apple in front of Eve in heaven and tells her not to touch, but she does ? Where she she get that greed temptation from ? Is God playing mischevious games with his children. Are his children/deities not exactly 16 celestial degrees perfect after all ? If the lion drank water next to the gazelle, what got to the lion to have a snap at the gazelle ?

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Post by howiemac » 21 May 2006

What would human nature do when finding itself in a perfect place? Play for a while ... get bored ... and tinker ...

There you have it, tinker with perfection and it becomes imperfect ... and what would human nature do then? keep tinkering ... create some man made flaws in the natural perfection ... then, some way down the line greed and the other vices would be born out of the escalating imperfection ...

So creativity is the first sin ...

:wink:

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Post by aimée » 24 May 2006

It is the law of entropy, is not it? When our batteries get discharged, then we are more enclined to be influenced by the new souls that are coming , stronger, and expressing another view of life or religion, this is the beginning of dualism, the beginning of the end ... Apparently, our vices are not totally eraised, but latent in us, ready to sprout out the next turn of the wheel. Have you ever seen the old picture of the cycle?

If we did not have a little bit of a hard and such good time, then how would we appreciate paradise? And if there was just paradise, would there be a story at all? What would be the point of us existing then? For be the idea of the cycle, what I found really strange at the beggining, is beautifully perfect...

Aimée

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Post by bansy » 25 May 2006

Apparently, our vices are not totally eraised, but latent in us, ready to sprout out the next turn of the wheel.
Does this mean the soul of Krishna cannot be perfect, nor any other soul as a matter of truth, since the highest soul has the greatest to fall, and that soul will ultimately inject the first drop of latent vice in the cycle, and hence the degradation that is to follow ?

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Post by aimée » 25 May 2006

Well ... Krishna is supposed to be the first one to be influenced by the first non-deity religion at the very beginning of Copper Age, and I think his name was Vikram ... something after, maybe, Vikramaditya. Not sure (help anyone!).

For me, Krishna is the first leaf, child of Golden Age. He was surely an attractive personality (not ordinary at all!) because he hasn't degraded completely. There is one personage in the epic, Ram, who is his Father. That one is supposed to have experienced the most downfall, and then will go the highest. This is why I find it so beautiful, because Baba says he is the lord of the poor, the most degraded ones. So the future deities, because we experienced the longer cycle, we are now at the bottom of everything.

For the ones, let say who have their Golden Age with Christ (eveyone get a Golden Age), they won't be that bad at the end of the Cycle. In a way there is no higher or lower, but just actors and some protagonists, they are all important. As far as I know, to make our story we need all type of religions; 4 main, 10 principle ones (it is all on the Kalpa tree picture).

I see us, our soul like a memory chip, where is engraved all our births. When we live in a pure atmosphere, then we are happy and perfect, then we get influenced by the souls of religions that attract us the most, that correspond to us ... otherwise I guess it would be difficult to repeat second by second the exact reproduction of last Kalpa, wouldn't it?

I think Krishna as Vikram, is not reponsible for spreading the vice first but for being influenced by the first religion of the Copper Age, Islam. Anyway it is the way I see things.

Aimée

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Post by bansy » 26 May 2006

I think what I am trying to understand is that if someone/something is 100% pure, how does it get degraded because there is no room for entry for whatever the influences around it. For example, a diamond remains a diamond (the nearest physical object I can think of that is "pure"). If this diamond has a latent vice within it, a "crack" as to speak, then it is not pure.

But Raja Yoga says the Golden Age there are 900,000 pure souls, which I presume means 100% perfect souls and hence vices could not enter, and these first generation souls give birth to second generation souls who should also be pure, and so on. But instead the second generation souls are 0.25 celestial degrees imperfect, thus suggesting souls of the first generation AREN'T actually perfect. That is the karma contradiction for my poor intellect on this subject.

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Post by aimée » 26 May 2006

Gosh your intellect is not poor! All these matters have to bee imagined by us because it is so abstract ... the day we will experience it, then we will be happy innocent people not aware of those questions!

What I think is that we are like batteries, charged at the beginning with 100% peace, purity etc. but a battery, even fully charged ends up loosing power with the erosion of time, until eventually it is completely dead. For me it makes sense to imagine the virtues as pure energy, and the vices or negativity as the forces that pulls us downward. I actually can feel it when I start being negative, I am very tired, and enthusiasm brings me a boost of energy. Don't you?

The only being whose energy never changes is God, often compared as the generator. I think it is because of course who he is, but also he never incarnates and reincarnates. he just borrows the body of some willingful chariots.

Then it seems rather logical to think that if we want to get back our pure energy from the beginning of the story, when we were perfect and happy, we better plug to the main ...

Aimée

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Post by bansy » 13 Jun 2006

Wars and worship and women ... is not this all down to "Extreme Karma" (thread in BK forum), in that the whole history and geography, and hence the whole drama, is down to events from actions and thus from thoughts, hence the resulting imbalance of karma.

Karma, to its extreme, means we are all connected, and thus we have had a hand in the problems in the past of the Yagya, even with Hitler's actions, with global warming (if you are using this PC, you are contributing to global warming aren't you ?), with Ghengis Khan invading, with Clinton having an affair, etc, etc, albeit indirectly it seems in this current life. But if you look at ALL the events (anyone want to even try to give a numerical estimate ?) that has happened in 5000 years, and that you have had 84 births, means then you are the cause if it all. And someone naughty started it all. If this karma reasoning seems extreme, then what about the natural and nuclear disasters to recorrect it all.

My understanding of Raja Yoga is that the first Man created so many problems and that his sidekicks, i.e. first Woman plus the other 108 and 16000 created so much havoc to leave us in the mess we are in today. Hence if there is a problem, blame yourself (soul) for it. There you have it, a course in drama in a nutshell, with a bit of humor.

So now the task is to undo ALL the wrongs, quite a task.

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Post by aimée » 13 Jun 2006

One second? That's pretty quick to resolve all my karmic accounts, I have quite a few! Especially if I am responsible with my bad thoughts of the next tsunami in a corner of the world...

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On the subject matter of karma

Post by atma » 11 Nov 2006

Bhais and sisters,

On the subject matter of Karma most recently I quickly read a headline in our local newspapaper where one person was beaten by a group of people and while being beaten many simply watched and even walked buy while this man was being beaten in a well populated area.

As far as I know he had not committed any crime or violence to receive this beating it was a random act of violence.

Now the question arises do you help this soul who is being beaten or do you understand that in the past there may have been some beatings going on and this is a return to this particular soul so you keep walking buy?

atma

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Re: On the subject matter of karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Nov 2006

atma wrote:As far as I know he had not committed any crime or violence to receive this beating it was a random act of violence.

This is an area that interests me deeply. I think that the teaching of Karma is the most misunderstood element of Gyan. What we receive is little more than a one word mental plug or mantra to stop us thinking anymore about any matter, e.g. something happens, "Oops, Karma" ... no more questions.
  • At the most simplistic level; why is it not accepted that it is possible to create new Karma both positive and negative, e.g. that some individual being beaten up was not receiving the return of their bad karma but that the thugs involved were creating new bad karma by beating an innocent individual up?

    At a most complex level; "where" is the record of karma? Is it stored within the soul, some spiritual element between souls or in some element of matter? Is it actually as literal as "an eye for an eye" or more general, e.g. doing "bad" descends the souls to a spiritual level where other "bad" things happen? Does it depend on consciousness to have an affect or is it universal and objective, e.g. if a child accident kills it is the same as an adult intentionally killing?
Bhakti is full of stories of gurus letting individual die in front of their chelas "because it was their karma" and Vaishnavism full of stories of the requirement of yogi devotees to be detached at all times from other's suffering. To an extent, given that most BKs inlcuding Lekhraj came from a Vaishnavite background, this has leached into Gyan and was certainly clear in the organization's history. BKs did not and largely still do not become invovled in "social goods" and "charity".

To be honest, it is an area that completely confuses me. I have experimented by becoming involved in such incidents, stopping crimes and intervening where one individual was being physically violated by an unequal other with mixed results. I do not have any set answers but I do take on board the Buddhist principles that one should extend one compassion and responsibility first to stop one's own violence towards other, others violence towards one's self and then to stop wider violence within society. This is balanced however by "indiscriminate charity being a sin". A more interesting and direct question would be;
  • What Karma will the BKs and BKWSU engender for its organized beatings of PBK followers? Surely it will be far worse than non-BK violence as the violence is carried out with full conscious awareness of the soul, God and Karmic laws?

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Post by andrey » 12 Nov 2006

Dear brother,

The Supreme Soul comes and teaches the philosophy of karma (action), akarama (neutral action), vikarma (sinful action). The one who teaches is above all of these but has knowledge about them. He says that this Law of Karma is connected with the stage the soul is in whilst performing actions. That is why He teaches us to perform actions in soul-consciousness, where the soul does not accumulate sin. He says that even a charitable action performed in bodyconciousness (e.g. ego of recognition) becomes a sinful action.

There is no one to be blamed in this eternal world drama. We aim for such a world where these occurrences will not happen. No one will beat anyone, no one will be beaten himself, no one will pass away without taking part.

What I have read in the newspaper, I don’t know if a human mind can make up something more pervert than what has happened in practical.

“A drunk man raped a small girl in a wheelchair and three mothers witnessed these act from their windows.”

It’s practical knowledge, and each time we should decide the best way to act and we will decide in the best way, according to the drama.

At first glance one would like to help. One is even astonished as to why others did not help. For me the Law of Karma is new. I believe it is understood wrongly many times and accepted as unjust.

When the soul is pure it has no account to settle and accumulates no account and this last for many years. One should always, I believe, think of temporary benefit and loss and permanent benefit and loss. Now all souls have accumulated hundredfold sins on their heads from many births in the past and it is the time for complete settlement for everyone. This becomes possible only because the Supreme Soul who is not bound to the circle of accumulation and settling comes.

Sometimes we try to settle something but make it more profound of an account.

I have new perceptions about this law again and again. Baba says that vikarma is the karma that goes opposite and makes others sorrowful. It is difficult to try and see how would these gangsters have given happiness to this person. But we never know, e.g. when someone acts under direction he does not accumulate as much as the one who gives the direction. If you act out of a feeling of a duty it is different. If you act out of an influence of a vice it is different. And these changes the act itself and it’s results. But it is for sure that whatever we receive we deserve.

We don't know the past of this man nor the future. This may have saved him from something worse. Always better things are to happen then what we think. That's why lately I was very happy when I realized that I will receive exactly what I deserve. I'll not be happy if I receive less. I’ll have a feeling of being deprived. I'll not be happy either if I receive more, because I’ll feel it like I gift I don't deserve. I'll be receiving exactly what is meant for me, and I’ll be happy with only this and nothing else. And I'll always be myself. There cannot be a lie. I may fool myself about who I am, but finally i will be happy with only myself, I'll be revealed to myself, and I can never be someone else. My part cannot vanish.

However, the matter is about the observer. I know from experience that if one beats you it depends on you how to take it. Sometimes if you interfere they become even more furious. Sometimes better tolerate the small thing. If you cut them then they get more furious and make up a plan to kill you.

There is only one painless method for taking sins away. If we could help the man with the power of thoughts, the better. How many such beatings and killings occur throughout the whole world, but because they are not in front of our eyes, then we don't recognize and realize. How much power we should have in our mind to liberate all of these souls from their sorrows and sufferings forever, means for half the Kalpa?

We will be witnessing many, many such cases in future I believe, many terrible situations we will have to face and we should train ourselves to not be afraid. If we suffer whilst watching suffering I don't know if it is right. I believe compassionate heart can make a big wonder sometimes, at other times can dupe you and lead one to downfall, e.g. why was Sita kidnapped? She liked to help the poor beggar. Sometimes we help someone and he gives something bad in return. I believe the main effort is to stay ourselves OK. What we pay attention on is what we ourselves give and what we receive. We receive something bad as something good. Is it possible that the one who is beaten is even more happy after being beaten, then before? Maybe it is possible. It depends on how he takes it. This way if you go and stop the beating you deprive him of happiness.

For example I've witnessed how the people going to the hospital are more stressed from their sickness then sick of their sickness, so the first thing the doctor has to do is to calm them down. Similarly, one can even have a heart attack just because someone just has had an intention to beat him, another one can see it as a test to his tolerance power and be happy with a good healthy beating. If we can do it (help) whilst maintaining a high stage, then, well, oho, it is the best of all. One can even make the gangsters laugh and the poor beaten person laugh. If we ourselves get furious looking at furious acts is this correct?

This long post is not to prove that there is not one answer. The answer is ... you are free to judge yourself, think of losses an benefit etc. and act.

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Post by arjun » 12 Nov 2006

Atma wrote:Now the question arises do you help this soul who is being beaten or do you understand that in the past there may have been some beatings going on and this is a return to this particular soul so you keep walking buy?

Om Shanti. I personally feel that one should try to help such souls directly or indirectly if you feel that injustice is being done to him. But in a situation where the perpetrators of crime are in majority and you (i.e. the helper) are alone, then one has to think before taking the plunge.
ex-l wrote:What Karma will the BKs and BKWSU engender for its organized beatings of PBK followers? Surely it will be far worse than non-BK violence as the violence is carried out with full conscious awareness of the soul, God and Karmic laws?

Yes, this is a question that the BK Administrators should think over. But as for the answer, it has already been given by Baba in the Murlis that if the BKs commit such sins they would accrue 100 times more punishment than a non-BK.

And for the PBKs, Baba has said in the advance knowledge that they would accrue 1000 times more punishment than a non-BK. And if someone from the PBKs is also engaged in giving knowledge to others and still commits mistakes, he/she would accrue 1 lakh times more punishment than a non-BK.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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