Karma

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Re: Karma

Post by shivshankar » 05 Sep 2008

mr green wrote:karmic accounts do not exist
Nice theory.

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Re: Karma

Post by tom » 05 Sep 2008

mr green wrote: Karma can only work on an individual level, we do bad we feel bad.
I agree with you. This would be the easiest and simplest way to believe. Then we had to take the revenge of the victims with our own hands. Eye for an eye.

What about the psychopaths who only feel good when they do bad?

Life can not be so simple. Take a look into the "The Secret Life of the Plants" from Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird.

I wished we could focus our thoughts mainly on this one life. Our lives would have been much better. We would have never
been involved in this BK craziness.

But unfortunately we feel and sense that there is much more than this individual life.

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Re: Karma

Post by mr green » 05 Sep 2008

Tom wrote:What about the psychopaths who only feel good when they do bad? Life can not be so simple.
Maybe we do sense more, but it is just an intellectual exercise. It is mental masturbation, it has no use ... you say we know nothing. Maybe there is nothing to know.

My argument is that it is this simple, why do you have to make it something hard, try to do the right thing according to your knowing, no-one can do more than this ... this is the deepest purest understanding of karma there can be.

Your example of a psycho-path is not relevant as they do not feel good at any time, only a twisted malicious pleasure, but really theirs lives are one of torment.
shivshankar wrote:Nice theory
It is not a theory. It is the rebuking of theory.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Sep 2008

tom wrote:Don't ask me how the serial killer of many children can settle up their accounts. We don't know anything.
Its true, we really don't.

OK, example, 'serial killer of many children in 2008'. How does the "Law" of Karma handle that one? There is not enough time for them to reincarnate as many times to be killed themselves, is there?

Any takers from the BK side?

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 05 Sep 2008

Not all souls have 84 births right ?

Let's forget the 84 births and assume a soul has one birth. How does it get decided that this soul is born in a rich family, or a poor family, gets born as a white, black, caste, no caste, male or female etc ? Any BK Gyan on 1 birth ? How does karma get resolved in this instance ?

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 05 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:OK, example, 'serial killer of many children in 2008'. How does the "Law" of Karma handle that one? There is not enough time for them to reincarnate as many times to be killed themselves, is there? Any takers from the BK side?
Supposing a degraded soul has a massive heart failure, its quick and he doesn't know his body has deceased and suddenly finds himself in a dark sticky dungeon swimming in toxic waste and then comes out of the womb, (something most fear to varying degrees - suffocation, dark etc) and then finds his born to a junkie mother whose womb is full of toxic waste. The soul is drawn, imo, to the kind of environment its state of mind has created and if that does not clear the account, then such fruit as accident prone, bad luck etc would follow that soul.

In my opinion, its the womb that is most horrendous because he is stripped of his weapons (his big body).

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 05 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:Not all souls have 84 births right ? Let's forget the 84 births and assume a soul has one birth. How does it get decided that this soul is born in a rich family, or a poor family, gets born as a white, black, caste, no caste, male or female etc ? Any BK Gyan on 1 birth ? How does karma get resolved in this instance ?
The role is within the soul and the costume for that role is accordingly. If a soul is in Paramdham then it will be pulled towards its role. It is pure and, therefore, has its own heaven and then if he lives till 80 he will have a golden, silver, copper and iron age of 20 years a piece. His karma is settled by losing the things he values most. Where he is at the end of his life span he has ordained ... in my opinion.

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 06 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:The role is within the soul and the costume for that role is accordingly.
So for a person of a single birth, who gets born into a cruel harsh poverty, it is not linked to karma at all but to a role as preordained. And any thing that soul does during the life is also preordained.

So it could be extended to the fact for 2 births, 3 births etc ?

Basically, we can make up all sorts of reasoning as to what karma is, and also the Law of Karma, as long as it suits what it is for oneself. Since it is preordained.

Drama is fixed. So "karma" is fixed ?

Yes, a soul is pure in nature but it can be born once in the Iron Age, say in the last few years until 2036 (theoretical date), so it is the "karma" of that pure soul to be born straight into "hell" ? Or is that single-birth soul not really 100% pure (numberwise) and not 16% degrees celestial so hence it is rightly born into the Iron Age, otherwise it would be born into the Golden Age. The latter would wouldbe the state of souls in the Seed World waiting for their turn to come into the corporeal world.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Sep 2008

I think you are getting close to what the "Law of Karma" is within the Brahma Kumaris, bansy. Something as vague, undefined and flexible as possible to be moulded to fit any problem. A mental plug to stop people thinking outside of the box and keep feeding the ghost instead.

No one knows, no one can explain, every one is afraid to ask because Dadi Janki gets upset when she is asked things she does not know ... no one can say, "I do not know", admit it, and start thinking rationally.
newlife wrote:... in my opinion.
Come on ... be honest (and I don't mean this harshly) ... that is not an "opinion". That is repeated, indoctrinated fantasy from the Brahma-kumaris. No one knows. All the evidence is against it.

I am fascinated by the love of and need for perfect numbers and rigorous symmetry Lekhraj Kirpalani, and his 'like-clockwork' mind, had. Why? I mean what is there to support it anywhere in nature? Not even the "Tree of Religious" is equally balanced. I suspect it might just come from his business days, balancing the books and making formal jewelry.
In my opinion, its the womb that is most horrendous because he is stripped of his weapons (his big body).
Again, "the prison of the womb" is another horror story Brahma-Kumari projection. I don't know how it is or felt. Mostly, the claimed records of feotus recall are are benign (... but that only means we don't hear the unpleasant ones).

On a purely pragmatic level, I have heard from old midwifes about the change in the smell and consistency of the amniotic fluid over the last few decades, something they put down to bad diet and, especially, chemicals taken from cosmetics/shampoos etc. Apparently it can stink really badly now in a way tat it did not in the past. Like it was fetid water, she could recognise the artificial, chemical smells. Whether the foetus experiences that ... that is another question. Being a new born junkie cant been fun.

But, let us not distract from the topic about how karma works, what its limitations are and so on ... I think you are getting close to the answer by headed towards "vibrations"/state of consciousness. That is to say karma is not an external, mechanical thing pushing nature about to suit.

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Re: Karma

Post by arjun » 06 Sep 2008

The Murli point quoted in the BK section of this forum today is relevant to this topic:
286.
“There is a lot of burden of sins on the head. One suffers from diseases, cough, etc.; all this is the suffering of karmic accounts of many births. Well, Jagdamba and Jagatpita (World Mother and World Father) are so famous! They are being worshipped. People do not know as to what was Jagdamba in her last birth? Now the part of Jagdamba-Jagatpita is going on in practical. So, look they too have to clear the karmic accounts of many births. They do so much Yoga (i.e. remembers the Father so much), they do so much service; even then they have to suffer punishments for the sins (karmabhog), get operated, etc. (Revised Sakar Murli dated 03.04.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

[admin note: user previously requested to keep on topic]
Offtopic: Dear Souls,

Please see Topic No. 04, page No. 08 of this thread to know why the soul power decreases even in Satyug. At any point of time, there is always influence on every soul in the physical world as well from the soul towards the nature. Sanskaar continuously goes on changing at every moment.

In Satyug, there is influence of pure nature on souls. This mixture reduces the power of soul. But no soul tries to influence on others. Hence there is just effect of ones own body and physical nature on the soul. There is no len-den (giving and taking) with respect to souls. Hence there is no karmic account with respect to the souls.

When the power of soul decreases beyond a threshold value, it is caught by bodyconsciousness and commits unlawful actions which are called sins. Some of the sins are done on other souls which we call karmic account. [But actually account is not just with souls. It is with self, others as well as with nature]. From dwaparyug, the souls get bonded. A building gives pleasure for the owner, but gives sorrow for a prisoner. Similary the body gives happiness in heaven and sorrow in hell. So in heaven it is called relation (sambandh) and in hell, it is called bondage (bandhan). But the soul is always dependent on body from the beginning. When the soul realizes God in Confluence Age, it become independent of body (to the extent it feels disinterest = vairagya). But it is influenced by Baba as well as heaven at that time. Because it feels disinterest in hell after realizing God, Shantidham and Sukhdham. So, there is always dependency. So again new karmic account (pure sanskaar) is created.

The wonder of this drama is that one can never come out of this. In Satyug, deities do not try to think. After dwaparyug, hathayogi sanyaasis tried to attain moksha, but by force (hath) which is wrong path. They do not have the knowledge of soul and God at all. They consider soul, God, universe all are same (Brahma satya, jaganmithya). So due to wrong knowledge, their aim becomes useless. In Confluence Age, BKs get the real knowledge. But they are given the aim of getting maximum births. They practice accordingly and develop that sanskaar.

So soul is either influenced by the nature (descending path) or by God (improvement). It never remains in the same state in Physical world. It remains in the same state in Paramdham only. But since the sanskaar is present in the soul, it triggers at its own time and the soul descends to physical world at its right time (according to the sanskar present in it). This is called the NATURE of the soul. Even though all souls are alike, they are different due to unique sanskaar in them. Hence the NATURE of every soul is same (all like peace, happiness) as well as different (in power, capacity).

At any point of time, there would be some souls in physical world and it will be changing. When the state of the physical world coincides with the NATURE of the soul in Paramdham, the triggering occurs and the soul descends and plays its role. So even at Paramdham, or in physical world, there is something present in soul It never becomes blank. Purity means free from vices and not blank.


There is effect of mind on body always. One's thoughts will affect body. If mind is relaxed, body also will be relaxed. If mind is tensed up, body also. The effect of thought is not just to the body. Its effect is on the atmosphere also. There is no limit to that. (Details I will try to cover in effect of thoughts).So this influence (karmic account) is always present. But it need not be a huge one (like a person smoking at a distance). But some actions have very high influence and hence are given the name karmic account (like person smoking very close to me).

The retriggerring can take place immediately, or at a later stage, knowingly or unknowingly. A body gets diseased due to various causes. Sometimes we know, sometimes we do not know. But there is cause for every effect. Similarly, there is cause for every action in the drama. The cause is triggering and effect is retriggering. There can be even chain reactions.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:Sometimes we know, sometimes we do not know.[/offtopic]
Well ... I'd say that you were at least 50% correct in that statement.

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

Thanks for the comment

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 06 Sep 2008

Let's face it, whatever answer anyone gives, you're not going to turn round and say, "that's it. Oh, joy" because we don't have that privilege of sitting outside of the cosmos and watching which soul goes where ... a better subject to be covered would be faith because faith is vibrations of knowledge. If I am sitting studying Murlis all day, then my vibrations of faith will grow because that's the vibe that's going in, whereas you are instilling the faith in the doubt of the BKWSU. So we both have faith but in different things. So really there's little point in discussing any further ... all the blessed to you all

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude by saying the above but we are all conditioned, and as much as we try to undo that conditioning, it is only to find we become conditioned to something else or in another way.

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Re: Karma

Post by tinydot » 06 Sep 2008

Here's my view of this theory. I partly agree with Tom and Mr. Green.

Bad action is relative to one's standard of good or bad. How much you deviate from your standards in a worse way, determines the level of intrinsic negative effect left in your soul/self (call it negative imprints, whatever). This is an analogy of the Conservation of Momentum or Conservation of Energy, if you know what I mean. I can cite several examples, and some equations of paired reactions. Actions are always paired-up.

However, imho, these "imprints" are in constant change, too, within the self. Imprints are vibrational energies and they are not eternally fixed. Deviate from your standards in a better way, and the negative imprints are lessened.

Your karmic account is only contained in your self. It has nothing to do with other souls.

OK, you kick someone's ass, she got hurt. In your future life, she will kick your ass, too, metaphorically speaking. This cannot be as simple as that.

The fact is, there is no evidence for such return of karmic account. Our legal system is not even a proof of such return, and a lot of times an innocent victim is punished. And so you can not extrapolate. To extrapolate is to accuse and to accuse is to commit sin. That is so grave!!!

So what is the reason why someone is raped or murdered for no apparent reason. We don't know, honestly speaking.

Talking about logic, we can represent it by a chain of thoughts.
  • Premise: Bad action implies some form of punishment in the soul [because the soul deviate from its standards causing an intinsic negative imprints in his self].
    Conclusion: If the soul was punished, then he must have done a bad action.

    THIS IS A TOTALLY FALSE CONCLUSION!!!
The logical truth of the Premise is: If the soul is NOT punished, then he did NOT do bad action.

In reality, no one is not punished. So it is a null set. The moment you are born, you already experienced discomfort and so you cry out. And if you look everywhere, everyone is being punished in one form or the other. Punishment takes away negative imprints in the soul. Punishment is a "betterment" to the soul's state in the external or physical way and so it must create a lessening of a negative imprints.

Overpunishment, like being raped or murdered for no apparent reason, must therefore create a blissful imprints in the soul [by logical induction].

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