Karma

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andrey
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Post by andrey » 24 Dec 2007

Dear brother,

I am not the God of the BKs or the PBKs, please allow the fault in me. If i have not understood well, or am unable to explain it means nothing more.

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Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by mbbhat » 30 Aug 2008

Topic No. 01) Blaming a BK is a Sin

The burden to society is bad habits. A nonvegetarian person consumes more from nature than a vegetarian person. A BK tries to get rid of bad habits. For a person who does not believe in karma philosophy, smoking, drinking, taking drugs are the MAIN bad habits. Most of the BKs do not have these habits. So, does a non-believer in God has right to blame BKs? Population is increasing. BKs do not add to population.

Eventhough BKs feel that their knowledge is the highest, they do not force anybody. They do not tempt others like some missionaries do to convert religion. BKs do not accept donations from agyaanis (there may be some exception or relaxation in this, particulary as the end of Iron Age approaches). From the above, BKs are are least burden to society. How can they be blamed?

A religious person believes in karma philosophy. He can blame a BK provided his sins are lesser than whom he comments. Else he also looses right to blame BKs.

Topic No.02) A Bk has no right to blame others

A Bk has no right to blame others even if he is insulted by others.

A Bk believes that his karma is the cause for his sufferings. He also has faith that at present his destiny is in his hands. So how can he blame others?

A person having high income can lead a royal life. When he sees a poor person committing mistakes, his first reaction should be pity on that person. Then he can report mistakes of the poor person to police or govt. But he cannot take law into his hands.

A Bk has faith that he can earn padam (countless or maximum ever possible) in his every kadam(step, thought). In front of him, all are poors(according to his faith). A Bk has blessings directly from God [(as per his own faith). Sometimes I may not add these words, it is understood]. So it is his responsibility to keep his mind happy even under worst circumstances. So how can he blame others?

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Aug 2008

So ... where is the discussion on Karma!?! Explain how it works, what its extent and limitations are, through which medium and by which mechanism it works ... provide evidence of it. Please compare the Brahma Kumari theory to the Hindu and Buddhist theory.

In answer to Topic no 1; surely to call a spade a spade is a virtue and a charity to others. There is no sin in point out the true. I would say in the old days, BKs did. I guess to the rank and file BKs, they still do. I am not sure about the middling and leadership. They appear to me to have adopted and increased all sort of royal sins.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by mbbhat » 31 Aug 2008

Dear ex-l soul,

To explain karma (actions) and thoughts, one should begin from basics which may be boring. So, I will select some topics and then go deeper.

TOPIC No.3) Why is there punishment in drama when everything is fixed?
  • a) Every soul when descending from Paramdham, first gets jeevanmukti (liberation in life) which is comfort.
    b) Every soul has INTELLIGENCE. Hence it is the responsibility of every person to think and judge properly before acting.
Of course, a child’s intellect is not developed. But as soon as it grows, its intellect gets developed. It starts committing sin only after development of the intellect. So, then it becomes its responsibility to think before acting. Since all fail in this, they move on the wrong path. The effect of this is loss, like loss of real happiness, poverty, disease, etc. It is after moving on wrong path, one becomes poor or weak. Hence even poor people do not get right to complain about their poor situation. [due to a) and b)]

Due to the availability of power of intelligence in a soul, even though everything is fixed in drama, one is bound by its own karma (actions).

Why punishment to BKs is 100 folds?:-

If the same mistake is done by a child, an elderly person, a political leader, the punishment is different. Punishment depends on the intelligence, rights and responsibility of a person. Knowledge of 5000 years sits in intellect of BKs and highest rights (payment = punya) and responsibilities are given to them. Hence punishment is also multifold.

Why is punishment is not immediate?

If a person takes improper food, or smokes cigarettes, the body does not get disease immediately. If it gets, then the body is said to be weak! A body has power to accommodate bad habits of a person for many years. Soul is powerful than the body. Hence it has the capacity to hold its account of paap (sin) or puny (good deeds) for many births.

Why the name punishment?

There is intelligence in the soul. It misuses its intelligence or acts irresponsibly. Hence effect of bad action is called karmbhog (sufferings through body) and punishment (forced by visions).

The purpose of punishment are two:- To get the fruit of its own karma and make the soul pure. The soul will become pure only when it realizes its karma. Souls forget their past actions. Hence they are reminded of their actions by visions.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by newlife » 31 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:In answer to Topic no 1; surely to call a spade a spade is a virtue and a charity to others. There is no sin in point out the true. I would say in the old days, BKs did. I guess to the rank and file BKs, they still do. I am not sure about the middling and leadership. They appear to me to have adopted and increased all sort of royal sins.
But what is the result of that ex-l? The sister that took me and my family through the course was very degraded in the sense of anger, arrogance, glorifying herself in front of Dadis. Even when we went to madhuban, that soul was told by Baba 4 times to "stay on the heart throne" but did she? ... No. BKs had so much conflict with her. Now she is a miserable, fearful yogi and still dancing to her own anger. The ones that tolerated her, and worked round her, preserved their peace. Its too easy to become spiritual prostitutes ... selling our peace for nothing. Unless you mean saying something in a way that doesn't effect our own stability of mind in which case ignore the above :-?.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by mbbhat » 31 Aug 2008

Topic No. 04) Why status of deities come down even if they do not commit sin?

The purity of anything decreases when mixture is added to it. Soul is more powerful than the body. Because body is perishable and soul is eternal. Any soul descending from Paramdham will be pure (without mixture). This is the reason, when any soul descends from Paramdham, first rules the body (enjoys = gets liberation in life).

But a soul can enjoy more if it is influenced just by the self (thinks of itself= point form). Some effort is needed(awareness) here. Actually, it is responsibility of even the deities to ask themselves about, what am I? from where have I come?, etc. But due to the comfort the soul gets, they do not think about these and start enjoying the nature. Due to the mixture of nature, the soul power decreases.

But in heaven, there is detachment to a high extent. They are not attracted by the physical body. They do not commit sin. They know that they are not body. But they are not conscious of the soul all the time. It is at the time of death only they realize that they are totally different than body and leave the old body and get new body.

Topic No. 05) What is sin?

There is a procedure or set of rules and regulations to do any action.
  • a) When a driver drives car according to the driving rules, it is like proper usage. But even then the value of car is decreasing due to usage. It is not an offence. Actions in heaven are similar to this.
    b) If the driver violates the driving rules while driving, it is crime. Actions committed by body consciousness are similar to this and are called as sins.
    c) Actions in Sangamyug are (aim is to) driving the car with 100% detachment. There is knowledge and feeling that I do not need car.
Deities enjoy driving. But a real Brahmin soul should have unlimited disinterest in his body. Even though he is driving (living), he should not have desire to drive. He is driving just to practice that I am separate from the car (body) = learning to die and guide others how to drive. That is, to get detached from the body naturally. These actions bring back originality to the soul, hence called elevated actions.

a) is using right method.
b) is wrong usage
c) is returning back = giving = make good.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Aug 2008

mbbhat wrote:Soul is powerful than the body. Hence it has the capacity to hold its account of paap (sin) or puny (good deeds) for many births.
Where? Where does the soul "hold its accounts" and how do they effect external matter?

For example, we discussed how a children were sexually abused in Madhuban. How did something you alleged was held within their soul move forward a brother to do such things, how would someone hurt in a car crash make the other car driver hit them? Through what mechanism or medium did the "Karma" travel?

For the sake of discussion I am letting other elements of your points go by that otherwise I would find built up on fallacy (questionable projections of faith) rather than knowledge.
newlife wrote:But what is the result of that ex-l? The Sister that took me and my family through the course was very degraded in the sense of anger, arrogance, glorifying herself in front of Dadis ... BKs had so much conflict with her. Now she is a miserable fearful yogi ... The ones that tolerated her, and worked round her, preserved their peace.
Well, firstly, thank you for your calm, analytical honesty, new life. That is precisely the sort of thing I am talking about. And thank you for admitting what is obvious to anyone with half a brain ... that the BKWSU has both some leaders and some followers that are "loose cannons".

Personally, I am worried by the culture of "BK Speak". You know, the "acceptable" way and things to talk about versus those things that NEED to be talked about. Protected open criticism of the leadership and organization is something that I think is required. The BKWSU leadership is DANGEROUSLY unaccountable and individuals such as this one can make many decent BKs lives hell for years ... even make them leave. If one dare speaks out

The open and honest discussion on this forum, and elsewhere, has brought about a situation where the BKWSU is having to consider reforms precisely because of it. One would have thought the BKWSU would have been enlightened, accepted it as its "Karma" and embraced the opportunity ... but no. The very top appears to want to ignore it, suppress it or block it from its following. When I do that to my own conscience and vices ... they just get worse and rebel!

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by mbbhat » 31 Aug 2008

Topic No. 06) Can one blame BKWSU(or any organization) if BKWSU(it) had ill treated somebody physically?

1) From the topic No. 01, one has no right to blame BKWSU if he is not ill treated physically by BKWSU.

2) Suppose say, Mr. X is ill treated physically by some BKs. Mr. Y starts accusing BKs and demands justice. If Y is bothered about justice, consider the following:-

If Y is really interested justice in the whole universe, he should protest against all such incidences in the world.

If Y is bothered just about people like X (those who ill-treated by BKWSU), then Y should have the intention to protect all such Xs form all the dangers in the world. Otherwise, it would be like protecting X from diseases like fever, but ignoring about cancer. What is the use? This is similar to pretending.

Dear ex-l soul,

You are bothered about PBKs beaten by BKs. [I admit that beating is wrong. There is some cause. When a person comes to your home and disturbs you occassionally, then you may take such steps when you lose patience. BKs are numberwise. Hence such things happened.] But there are many many cases where BKs were beaten by others, e.g. even myself. I have heard directly form some Dadis (e.g. Gange Dadi). She was tortured to a great extent both physically and mentally. Do you get same anger when you hear such cases? Then you can be called as impartial. Otherwise, you are just trying to take revenge, NOT POINTING THE TRUTH.

Anyway, it is your role in the drama. It is my duty to respect every soul as an actor in the drama and love every soul as child of God.

There is no need of media for karmic account to travel. It can be covered after the topic Power of thoughts. Does light or electromagnetic radiations need any media to travel? Have you thought what is the cause for dreams? Can you say why proton has positive charge and electron has negative charge? From what an electron is made up of? Why gravitational force exists? By hurrying, you get nothing.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Aug 2008

What is her real name? There is a list, here. Surely, that suffering was the Karma of suffering she caused others, so why should I be sympathetic to her?
mbbhat wrote:I have heard directly form some Dadis (e.g. Gange Dadi). She was tortured to a great extent both physically and mentally. Do you get same anger when you hear such cases? Then you can be called as impartial.
Largely, I am not. And it is another 'fallacious argument' to suggest that therefore I am "not impartial".

Firstly, I do not get "angry" when I hear of PBKs being beaten by BK, even if it is in a manner that suggests it is a centralised policy from the headquarters. That is to say, it happens in the same way in numerous states which leads us to think it must coordinated by someone.
  • I am not sure of my exact sentiments ... but "disgusted by the hypocrisy and two-facedness of the organization" would be good enough.
Secondly, Om Mandli members were being beaten by "impure, ignorant Shudras" (demons the BKWSU tells us), whereas here we have "pure, knowledgeful Brahmin Angels" doing the same job.
  • In short, it "comes with the territory". It is as if Jews, having been persecuted by Nazis then go off and and become Nazis persecuting others (... which, of course, what some have done in Palestine).
Thirdly, we know now the circumstance of the 'alleged beatings' were NOT as the Brahma Kumaris projected them.
  • The Brahma Kumaris 'project' the Om Mandli wives, mothers and children as heroes running away to be with "God". We know now that there was no God Shiva until after 1950. In fact, they were running off to be with millionaire sugar daddy Lekhraj Kirpalani who was willing to spend his money and life on making things comfortable and easy for them ... with the addition of much psychic entertainment to liven up their lives. For them, Lekhraj Kirpalani was God the Gita Inventor.
The BKWSU must therefore be proven to be prone to extensive exaggeration and falsification. They are NOT reliable witnesses. A few incidents (which I am sure did happen but were on the low scale of familial abuse) have been exaggerated out of all proportion to create a "persecution myth" that the Brahma Kumari leadership can exploit to their advantage.

The difference between the Om Mandli and PBK events is that the members of the Om Mandli were, in essence, the defaulters in social contracts. That is, the marriages of men and women, the bonds of the fathers and daughters and their extended family. A family system which was essential for survival at that time.

The Prajapati Brahma-kumaris were, in essence, in the wrong. Lekhraj Kirpalani broke not just families apart but also a community ... using primarily his money power. (His "competition", Saddhu Vaswani whose work for women and girls pre-dated Lekhraj Kirpalani's, did not need to 'buy' his following and demand they cut off from their families).

Today, on the streets of India, the PBKs actually actually protect by law (in theory) and have human rights. "Freedom of religion" and the rights of individuals to follow and promote their religion is one such human right that the Brahma-kumaris HYPOCRITICALLY sign up for (see, United Religions Initiative). They put on a face to the United Nations but their actions contradict that. I would say their actions reflect their inner reality.

So, all in all ... the circumstances are quite different and the BKs come out looking unreliable. Ganges Dadi knows about the historical revision, the many failed predictions of Destruction, God Brahma phase and has carried out the lies for decades. Therefore, my sympathies are therefore less for her. The situation with the PBKs is still current, when Om Mandli is over.

And I feel the same about the injustice dealt to PBKs as I do about BKs that are denied Murlis.

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 31 Aug 2008

bansy in May 2006 as the first post in this thread wrote:Karma - this topic will never go away ... because it is precisely that
Has this topic come alive again ? :D

Karma is so easy : it's not your fault, it's God's. That's it. Otherwise why has He bothered to come back :D

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Re: Karma

Post by shivshankar » 31 Aug 2008

It's not His fault. It's just Drama. Printscreen. There is no faults ;).

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 31 Aug 2008

It ss not His fault. It's just Drama.
Drama IS karma.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by newlife » 31 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:The Prajapati Brahma-Kumaris were, in essence, in the wrong. Lekhraj Kirpalani broke not just families apart but also a community ... using primarily his money power. (His "competition", Saddhu Vaswani whose work for women and girls pre-dated Lekhraj Kirpalani's, did not need to 'buy' his following and demand they cut off from their families).
Then let's just hope, for your sake, that Supertramp in Fools Overture were not remembering our Brahma Baba's role when they made this song ...
Suptertramp wrote:History recalls how great the fall can be
While everybody's sleeping, the boats put out to sea
Borne on the wings of time
It seemed the answers were so easy to find
Too late, the prophets cry
The islands sinking, lets take to the sky

Called the man a fool, striped him of his pride
Everyone was laughing up until the day he died
And though the wound went deep
Still hes calling us out of our sleep
My friends, were not alone
He waits in silence to lead us all home

So tell me that you find it hard to grow
Well I know, I know, I know
And you tell me that youve many seeds to sow
Well I know, I know, I know

Can you hear what I am saying
Can you see the parts that Im playing
Holy man, rocker man, come on queenie,
Joker man, spider man, blue eyed meanie
So you found your solution
What will be your last contribution?
Live it up, rip it up, why so lazy?
Give it out, dish it out, let's go crazy,
Yeah!

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Aug 2008

Roger Hodgson (Supertramp) had never heard of Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1977. The song was written about WWII, starting with Churchill's speech. He was into Yogananda and his disciple J. Donald Walters (aka Kriyananda) to whom he wrote the song "Babaji". A God within man, but I am surprised the BKs have not targeted him as a mic.

I was making a comparison between the events of Om Mandli 70 years ago and the present day events pertaining to the BKs treatment of the PBKs.

Its a fairly obvious to point out that the BKWSU has become "the Anti-Party", i.e. the persecuting orthodox majority that thinks itself above the law, to the minority reformative PBKs within their ranks. "The boot is on the other foot now".

Looking at it impartial, I make the rational point of how Lekhraj Kirpalani and the early Prajapati Brahma-kumaris incited the response they received from their family and community (I am not condoning the response). The BKWSU has sufficiently doctored their history for neo-BKs NOT to know the whole truth, the whole story, the true nature of the psychic experience the women and children were having ... e.g. WHY their families reacted so strongly, why the accusations of magic and so on were made.
  • You are not being told the truth.
I also underline the attitude that;
  • • when suffering happens to others (even within the movement), "it is their karma"
    • when suffering happened/happens to the old Brahma Kumaris, all of a sudden it is something terrible, exaggerated and it is turned into persecution complex or crisis that they expect the "remembrance" of all their followers to solve
    • when they hand suffering out (as in the beatings or command to beat) ... there is no such thing as karma because they were remembering Baba at the time they did it.
The three neither match nor fit into the so-called Laws of Karma they teach. How do we understand this?
Roger Hodgson wrote:Every Trick In The Book

Well every trick in the book that you want to play
You better have a good answer to get your way
'Cause all the tricks that you pulled, and all the people you fooled
Well you started something

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 31 Aug 2008

But ex-l not all BKs are staying BKs because of fear of leaving as well you know. The experiences that soul-consciousness provides is far greater than anything that humans have to offer. If its supression we will see but even people who have never meditated before like becoming aware of themselves as good peaceful souls. They like knowing that anger is bad but they are not bad. Most do not take it any further. The experiences that ooze from awareness of being a point of light will stand the test of time. It gives us the power to enjoy being ourselves again. You know all these things, hopefully you don't lose touch of that.

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