Karma

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Aug 2008

Don't allow me to sound to harsh but in my critiques these days I am separating the 'path of Brahma Kumarism' from the path of being soul-consciousness or truth. Or rather the Brahma Kumaris appears to be doings so for me.

The theory is great. We need more data what the experience actually is, what it opens people up to or what happens to them after.

Back to karma though. I am interested to read a response.

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 31 Aug 2008

Dadi Janki was once asked what her greatest fear was.

She said it was facing Dharamraj.

Now, according to karma, then such fear instilled in the soul of Dadi Janki, does this mean she has a lot of karmic settlement with Dharamraj ? Did this happen in the last cycle too ? Is she expecting a lot of punishment later on because she had it the same last time round too ? Deja-vu. Karma - some people are afraid of snakes and others are afraid of water, because it is in their soul from previous births ?

So her greatest fear is Dharamraj punishment. Can this be submitted under the BK theory as "her own karma" ?

I am not suggesting anything about Dadi Janki, that's her own issue, but the application of the theory of karma as propounded by the BKWSU applies more so to BKs directly (as in "it's in yer face") if one looks in the mirror more closely.

I asked friends where they will go when they die. Simply answered, "I will go to heaven". No thoughts about Dharamraj, grim reapers, hell, devils and fire and those things. Just heaven. Do these people therefore have no karma or knowledge with Dharamraj, have a smooth trip to paradise, and hence no punishment i.e. they are pure ? There's a lot about visions in Murlis too.

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 01 Sep 2008

For me it seems that the majority of human beings, when adorning themself with a title of some description, cease to think about the qualifications needed to be a good ... Just as in the case of a bk. Or if ever I think of myself as a good teacher or mother ,,, then the danger is that I do not look at that again to make sure it remains good, or that it really was good in the first place. To me, the best karma we can do is one that is filled with pure love. Then again what is pure or true love? So many easily say, I didnt do this for me or it was selfless what I did. To make it look really gross, I think that human beings have a points score that we find difficult to ignore. We get points for maybe the way we look, or maybe whether we are kind, or humble or worthy etc. In other words, if love is for a reason then I find it hard to accept that as the highest form of love. Cue for a song, "love me for a reason let the reason be love".

A dear friend of mine spends 1000s of pounds on his wife's every birthday, christmas and throughout the year if he can. When his birthday comes around he gets some strawberry plants. He suffers with high blood pressure, works a 60 hour week while she is over the farm riding her horse. Recently she asked for a second horse in case horse A goes lame. She doesnt have sex with him anymore. He feels his love is selfless and that she is the most selfish woman on the earth <his words>. He arrives home to find a half-cooked potato in the microwave for his supper ... I said to him, as soon as you expressed to your sub conscious that you are selfless and she is selfish, you put a fire in your belly that could easily drive you apart. Now you view her like that for a long time to come.

I think the sub-conscious annoyingly clocks up what we do, it remembers what weve done and so I personally do not believe in selfless love between human beings because I think we take our cut. Although one could say they did good karma for someone or even for themself, if they do not get something for that effort then for how long will they do that? Further, I think that true love doesnt stop loving and therefore doesnt stop giving. I do not feel comfortable with the statement, "I love them, I just do not like them at the moment". Nor do i feel there is pure love for or from many yogis. No, if it starts for a reason, then it can stop for a reason. I think personally that karma is heightened through pure love, whatever that is :shock:

As in the case of the Dadis, many yogis see some virtue or quality or in them thats missing in themselves and I guess instead of developing that quality they just worship them. Perhaps a bit of Bhakti comes easier to us. So we are in danger of doing stuff for them and all sorts of traps lay in wait for us.

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Re: Karma

Post by freedom » 01 Sep 2008

ai ai ai ... funny deep issue here: karma !!! Well, I also have heard Dadi Janki saying this, her fear of Dharamraj. In my opinion, 2 things are happening:
  • 1. she is fearful because she has a huge account to settle, according to her consciousness
    2. she is also trying to be 'humble', like: if I am Dadi and fear Daramraj, don't even ask what you should feel ... :sad:

But anyways, I feel Dharamraj (sorry, cannot spell it right) pulling my ears when I did not do something that I should have done in order to feel happy, in peace, connected, in alignment, whether was a missing conversation, a piece of chocolate, sleep a little more, dream about my desires or being myself a lot more !!!

Happy life, everyone !!!

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 01 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:Has this topic come alive again ?
My subject/thread is/was KARMA PHILOSOPHY MADE SIMPLE where knowledge points could also be posted, and not just KARMA. The posts in that thread are put into this thread and now, it continues. Here also knowledge points can be posted, since all are related to actions. But some can doubt more.

FEAR OF DHARMARAJ MEANS FEAR OF NOBODY, except one's own karma. This makes us introverted. When I become introverted, I am helping the other also. Sometimes it is better to pretend fear even if one has no fear. This will help the other person to fear of his sins and will increase attention in his life. I, personally, believe that there is no personality called Dharmaraj. Like Baba says, Ravan is the enemy. Many times, Baba teaches like teaching small children. These imaginary personalities help to increase concentration. And also help to understand Bhakti which is yaadgaar of Gyan.

[admin note: off topic material removed and sent to author, please keep on topic.]

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Sep 2008

You still have not address the questions I asked you regarding the form and mechanics of karma. How and through what medium does it work?

I think you should be careful is pronouncing statements such as there is no Dharamraj. The BKWSU leadership have taught Lekhraj Kirpalani as Dharamraj since nigh the beginning, even had vision of it. So if Janki says so, is her word not Shrimat?

Can you please keep focused on the topic?

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 02 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:1)I asked you regarding the form and mechanics of karma. How and through what medium does it work?

2) The BKWSU leadership have taught Lekhraj Kirpalani as Dharamraj since nigh the beginning, even had vision of it. 3) So if Janki says so, is her word not Shrimat?
1) Please wait for three days. But you had not replied to the related questions 2) I have not heard that BKWSU has said this. Murli says, Dharmaraj is right hand of Baba. And Baba says those who follow srimat are Baba's right hand. I do not know whether they have interpreted like this. But I had never heard in BKWSU that anybody had got vision of Lekhraj as Dharmaraj. 3) Except Murli nothing is Shrimat.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:3) Except Murli nothing is Shrimat.
I am glad we agree on something mbbhat ... which is why we want them uncut, original and untampered with.

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 03 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:I asked you regarding the form and mechanics of karma. How and through what medium does it work?
1) I asked three days, because I could not decide whether to continue in the same thread or post in some new topic so as to prevent that the matter does not go off topic later. Then I decided to continue in the same thread. The related matter I will post on a new thread.

You did not reply to my questions. As for as my knowledge light DOES NOT NEED any MEDIA to travel. Electron is called fundamental particle which cannot de divided further. Gravitational force exists because of the NATURE itself. Proton and electron have opposite charges according to their NATURE.

A seed grows and becomes tree due to its own NATURE. Plants grow according to their NATURE. Two plants grow identically under same conditions. But if two children are given the same education, both of them do not it them identically. What may be the reason?
When one sees photo of somebody, he feels love. What is the MEDIA through which the information in the photo went inside the person? Will you explain these according to the knowledge you have?

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Sep 2008

I don't know which questions I am supposed to have not answered.

If I look at a photo and feel love, nothing has "travelled" because it has all happened in my mind.

If there are two twins and they come out different, I have no problem with that because, currently, I accept the possibility of reincarnation. I do not see how either example relate to Karma nor answer how it work or what its limitations are.

I am asking this because I genuinely don't know, not to trip you up with some clever theory. I do not think any of us know. The BKWSU teaches it, we take it for granted and it is used to control ... but no one asks the obvious question of "how?" which underpins, "if?". Buddhism etc, which really developed the idea, takes it much further than the BKs faith.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by mbbhat » 03 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:There is no need of media for karmic account to travel. It can be covered after the topic Power of thoughts. Does light or electromagnetic radiations need any media to travel? Have you thought what is the cause for dreams? Can you say why proton has positive charge and electron has negative charge? From what an electron is made up of? Why gravitational force exists?
These were the questions I asked you.

While seeing the photo, nothing physically travels. And all happened in mind. That is correct. But it did not happen itself. The person had to see the photo. So some information from the photo has definitely transfered!

There is no need of any media for thoughts to travel (effect of thoughts, I will take in new thread). In this case there is no travel at all. One triggers the other. That is all. But this triggering is not independent. It depends both on the photo and the person who sees it.

When one is influenced by the other, there is a change in sanskaar. This change is the creation of karmic account. At its own time, the triggering occurs automatically, like a tree bears fruit at its season, not when you water it. Everything has its own NATURE. The soul has forgotten its nature (swaman). This is the true knowledge.

Knowledge is not learning something new. It is just remembering what is forgotten (old things). Knowledge is learning new, because old things become new. The oldest things are (become) the newest things, and the newest things become oldest things, because drama repeats. Why drama repeats - I will take in different thread.

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Re: Karma Philosophy made Simple

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:While seeing the photo, nothing physically travels. And all happened in mind. That is correct. But it did not happen itself. The person had to see the photo. So some information from the photo has definitely transfered!
Well, roughly speaking a message was record in ink, light reflected off the piece of paper back to the eye, the message acted as a mnemonic stimulating part of the brain of the viewer. So light travelled, so did electricity along neurons, chemicals in the brain etc. I thought you were suggesting the inert photo "sent love" to the viewer which the viewer experienced.

Then what you write becomes all sort of incredibly confused, unrelated and makes huge jumps off topic as you try to slip in other points of knowledge. So, let's get back on topic.

BKs would say when BK Dawn Griggs was raped, murdered and mutilated with a screwdriver and rock in non-violent India that, "oh, that was just her karma" and detach from considering it. BKs have also said that the Jews suffering in WWII was just "their karma coming back to them", i.e. the suffering they had caused others in previous lives causing them suffering. Would you not agree, technically?

So how did Dawn manipulate those muggers or rapists to be coming along the road just at the right time and place to settle her karma? Or how did the Jews' bad luck get them all in the same place (Poland WWII) and time and manifest the Nazi war machine in order to punish them back and clear their karmic accounts?

What moved the bits and through what medium?

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 03 Sep 2008

I think what ex-l is trying to get at is

(a) if the wheel of drama means that everything returns to as it was in the first place at 0.0.0, then at that time how many birds, butterflies, ants, clouds, flowers, etc and stars, rivers, water droplets, etc , oygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, sulphur, carbon flying around, etc was happening at that time. i.e. what is the snapshot of the world at 0.0.0 00:00:01 (y:m:d h:m:s) ? i.e is the drama just a video tape where it can be rewound it back to the first frame.

Hence what is that first frame ? If there is an end, there is a beginning. Anyone know exactly what the beginning really is, as described in Gyan ? Or just another imagination.

(b) okay, let's assume there is a perfect first frame of paradise on earth. A frozen shot for a split second (i.e press the pause button and the world stops spinning on its axis for a split second). Have you bit of fun vision and imagination. Yes, it is that wonderful. You deserve it after all. Now it is a clean tape that lasts 5000 years, so you press play. Then if the tape (world) is perfect how does any "negative karma" come into it ? If deities are perfect and the water is clean and the breezes are fresh etc and the first man and woman are perfect and everything is 16 degrees, where did any negativity come from ?

Karma exists where there is negative and positive. So where does the negative come from ? How does the Law of Karma work in an environment where everything and everyone is perfect ?

Now, I don't know what karma really is yet. But when someone says "it's your karma" then do they know what they are really saying/preaching/teaching ? But if you know what karma is, folks, very well please share it. But don't say whatever happens in life that "it's your/his/her karma" if you cannot explain what it is.

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Re: Karma

Post by shivshankar » 03 Sep 2008

Om Tat Sat:).

Karma is a term. It means action. You can perform good (which brings happiness to others) or bad (sufferings to others) actions now. So when I say it is "your bad karma came to you", I mean that somebody or something performed an action which brought sufferings to you. It happened because you had brought sufferings to somebody earlier. The same is with good karma:)). Nothing complicated in this issue.

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 03 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:(b) okay, let's assume there is a perfect first frame of paradise on earth. A frozen shot for a split second (i.e press the pause button and the world stops spinning on its axis for a split second). Have you bit of fun vision and imagination. Yes, it is that wonderful. You deserve it after all. Now it is a clean tape that lasts 5,000 years, so you press play. Then if the tape (world) is perfect how does any "negative karma" come into it ?
I do not think the souls there actually change from pure to impure even in a miniscule way and even tho they've just come out of the show room. I think happiness is the downfall, if one can call it that. Think the soul uses up its store of happiness or divinity which it has stored through bringing souls closer to The Source at this time. As the cycle spins, the lesser amount of happiness is sensed by the soul and it looks more outside to be happier. Although it feels peaceful, peace is not enough and so curiosity starts.

I was told action means change. I know that when I left I had a huge amount of happiness at first, kind of spent it, became more and more unhappy chasing it and yet more unsuccessful as I chased it through unhealthy means. I am not trying to preach just sharing. Think it spends half a cycle going from divine to severely reduced virtue ... I think its like if someone does a good deed and forgets it, it yields more fruit than if someone tells everyone what they done. I think whatever happiness comes back from doing its good to re invest ... that's of course if you wear a vest :|.

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