Karma

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bansy
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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 03 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:Think the soul uses up its store of happiness or divinity which it has stored ....Think it spends half a cycle going from divine to severely reduced virtue...
shivshankar wrote:You can perform good (which brings happyness to others) or bad (sufferings to others)
I am not discussing about karma as the event or action here, we all know the definition. C'mon folks, I think most of you know what is are good deeds and bad deeds are and it is better for a good action than a bad action, what is sow and reap etc. Even a 4 year old knows if he cleans his teeth he can get a candy. You are just saying something about karma having been told by someone who got it from someone who has heard it from someone else who has heard it from someone else, etc. Even Boy George sings songs about it.

You are not adding anything to the discussion about the original nature of the Law of Karma. You talk about the implementation of karma which we all are quite well aware of. You can keep going on about sukarma and vikama etc and all the terms used, but if you can understand the original nature of karma, you can understand the original nature of the (your) soul.

What I am asking is where did the first bad deed come from if the cycle starts out perfect. How did the Law of Karma kick off ? Let's go right back to the beginning of the cycle, not at this point in time during this year 4972 or so, but to the original source of what is karma. i.e the first action. Again, if it is perfect at year 0, then how does virtue get reduced ? How does one use up its happiness ? Surely then something internally has pulled the soul to have that reduction, and if all our sins are within then doesn't that mean that actually all souls when they enter the Golden Age actually also have the vices in dormant state.

And hence a perfect soul in year 0 whilst having full virtues, thus also have full vices. Is this a valid statement ?

Then following on from this, who or what triggered the first act of sin, and hence kicked off the Law of Karma (i.e. action) to come into place ? If we all stayed in seed form in Paramdham, then there would not be any karma involved. So how does karma and the Law of Karma originate once we are sent "down" onto this earth ? If you are all too proud to admit that you will become perfect dieties in the first rosary, then how did vices ever come up if you (as dieties) did not have them in the first place ? Sure you also have the virtues too.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Sep 2008

shivshankar wrote:When I say it is "your bad karma came to you", I mean that somebody or something performed an action which brought sufferings to you. Nothing complicated in this issue.
Nothing complicated to individuals that do not want to think and accept what we are told as a faith. I am asking you to prove that faith but explaining how it works.

How does my bad make others bad happen to me at a distance, over time (indeed even carried out over reincarnations) and in utterly random patterns sometimes involving 1,000s of other people, e.g. Jewish Holocaust?

Partly I ask this because the developers of Karma philosophers/believers, mainly Buddhists, would not agree with that infantile summary. Partly because, for something so big and central to The Knowledge™, BapDada appears to say very little about it and the faith is not questioned about it. (And, no one here recently has even been able to give an accurate and complete summary of the BK's own particular karma theory which does not match the original one).

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 04 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:What I am asking is where did the first bad deed come from if The Cycle starts out perfect. How did the Law of Karma kick off ? Let's go right back to the beginning of The Cycle, not at this point in time during this year 4972 or so, but to the original source of what is karma. i.e the first action ...
The soul reduces or uses up virtue as it acts through matter ... the only thing thats pulled the soul is the nature to act ... quote Baba, when the soul first comes into matter it bursts into happiness ... vices are dormant in the soul is correct because everything is always in the eternal soul. Karma is eternal therefore the human soul is never without something in its stockroom.

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 04 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:1)What I am asking is where did the first bad deed come from if The Cycle starts out perfect. How did the Law of Karma kick off ? Let's go right back to the beginning of The Cycle, not at this point in time during this year 4972 or so, but to the original source of what is karma. i.e the first action. Again, if it is perfect at year 0, then how does virtue get reduced ? How does one use up its happiness ? Surely then something internally has pulled the soul to have that reduction, and if all our sins are within then doesn't that mean that actually all souls when they enter the Golden Age actually also have the vices in dormant state.

2) And hence a perfect soul in year 0 whilst having full virtues, thus also have full vices. Is this a valid statement ?

3) Then following on from this, who or what triggered the first act of sin, and hence kicked off the Law of Karma (i.e. action) to come into place ? If we all stayed in seed form in Paramdham, then there would not be any karma involved. So how does karma and the Law of Karma originate once we are sent "down" onto this earth ? 4) If you are all too proud to admit that you will become perfect dieties in the first rosary, then how did vices ever come up if you (as dieties) did not have them in the first place ? Sure you also have the virtues too.
1) There is no true beginning since nothing can be created or destroyed. Everything changes from one form to the other. The cycle never starts perfect in real sense. Because perfection in real sense means NO CHANGE. Only God's action has no change. In Satyug, the souls will be doing action through the body. The soul is not thinking about itself. The souls are under the flow of nature. They are not conscious of themselves. There is carelessness. The soul is actually independent than body. But remains bonded in the body. Due to the company of the mortal things on the immortal thing(soul), the soul's power decreases.

The (brahmin) souls realize that they are souls only in Confluence Age when God teaches. As it practices the knowledge, it becomes pure(free from vices). But even in Confluence Age, a Brahmin soul remembers body(pure bodies of deities) A LOT. The aim itself is to become deity. A Rajayogi remembers three things- Points(soul and Supreme Soul), Paramdham and Sukhdham. Since a rajaYogi develops sanskaar of sukhdham to a very high extent, he has to descend from Parmadham again. That is why Baba says, "I alone do nishkaam(fruitless) karma".

2) A new house is guaranteed to become old one day. Can we say there was defect in it at the beginning?
3) All the souls were never at Paramdham at any point of time. Some were in physical world playing their part.
4) We are not proud. We also know that we are also the most impure. When deities were enjoying happiness in heaven, the other souls also were in full peace. It is deities who experience sorrow first, and then the others. But the supersensuous joy in Confluence Age is a boon which cannot be comparable with anything. We did not had vices when we were dieties. But it was sure that we are in utartee kala(descending path). But since there is an opportunity to burn sins by yogabal, we are happy.

Dear ex-l soul,

We influence and get influenced by others' personality. That is, we get disturbed and disturb others due to our own weaknesses(after dwaparyug due to Maya). If somebody's behaviour is disturbing, we do not comment him if it is within the limit, e.g. somebody smoking at a distance. But there is effect. But if he is smoking standing very close to you, you get upset and act. This is called triggering. When somebody mocks at you, there is considerable karmic account. You may not reply at that time. After some days, when you get opportunity, you may speak and take revenge. So triggering need not be immediate. Similarly, these karmic accounts trigger at their own times, even in the next birth automatically.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Sep 2008

Where is this "petrol tank" store of virtues, newlife? How can we expend virtue as if it was a fuel?
mbbhat wrote:We influence and get influenced by others' personality. That is, we get disturbed and disturb others due to our own weaknesses(after dwaparyug due to Maya). If somebody's behaviour is disturbing ...
You are drowning us in off topic waffle again. You are still no where near offering a model to explain the mechanisms of karma and how it returns. At best you appear to be say there is no such thing existing as Karma and it is all just thoughts in the mind. That does not explain how "karma" brings physical misfortune on us.

Please use the examples I have given, e.g. the Jews bringing the Nazis upon themselves or BK Dawn bringing the rapist murders upon herself as she went to Madhuban. Explain me to how the victims brought the crimes upon themselves. I have deliberately chosen one individual case involved a Brahma Kumari and one collective karma case involving 100,000s of otherwise fairly random and unconnected individuals.

So please explain, or show me where The Baba™ explains. I say he does not. I say the BKWSU uses infantile Karma theory as a mental plug to stop its followers from thinking and asking questions ... and that is all it is. A mental plug yukti (method). A one word shrug to brush off any rational questions.

As a side note, out in the real world, other religions and thinkers do explain karma theory in both more depth and in recognisation of its limitation. They also include theories about national or collective karma. Perhaps other dimensions of space-time which science is only just probing. But that is all it is karma theory not Karma Law.

So, if the God of the BKWSU has a fixed and absolute Karma Law, so me the equations.

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 04 Sep 2008

When we perform actions we use virtues in those actions ... we express both things what we are and what we have ... it is in the sub-conscious mind stored, yes, like petrol. You can only get as much petrol from the tank as you put in ... once the virtues have become weak, we start our quest to think about being virtuous again ... virtues are recorded feelings that we develop in a knowing way ... ego to self-respect ... tolerance from intolerance, energy exchanged for energy. As many virtues that much happiness accordingly.

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 04 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:The soul reduces or uses up virtue as it acts through matter ... the only thing thats pulled the soul is the nature to act
But matter is also pure at the beginning. Or is it not ?

What then is "nature" ? How does "nature" cause karma or, vice-versa, what is the karma in nature ? Is "nature" just another catchall term.
when we perform actions we use virtues in those actions ... we express both things what we are and what we have ... it is in the sub-conscious mind stored, yes, like petrol. You can only get as much petrol from the tank as you put in ... once the virtues have become weak, we start our quest to think about being virtuous again. ... virtues are recorded feelings that we develop in a knowing way ... ego to self-respect ... tolerance from intolerance, energy exchanged for energy. As many virtues that much happiness accordingly
I understand what your reasoning is here, but it does not explain how karma exists in a perfect Golden Age. If the vices were dormant in the soul, then the first action in the Golden Age is one of vice, otherwise the Law of Karma cannot be triggered.

(ps : Please don't think I am just picking up on your quotes, as I am hoping other forum members can also participate in a healthy discussion of karma whatever the viewpoints, because karma is something we all seem to accept but are we really sure what it really is, or has it been made up to suit whatever one's own needs ? )

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 04 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:I understand what your reasoning is here, but it does not explain how karma exists in a perfect Golden Age. If the vices were dormant in the soul, then the first action in the Golden Age is one of vice, otherwise the Law of Karma cannot be triggered.

There doesn't need to be a bad karma to trigger off a bad karma because vikarma takes place first with our bodies. Bad karma has its golden birth once i've lost my virtues and start to use my eyes in an unhealthy manner. The eyes used wrongly in a desiring way toward my own body. Think you're seeing it as though bad karma with others ... No? But I think it to be a negative desire for our own bodies borne of not feeling internally satisfied anymore. So, firstly, the account is with ourselves, then others.
But matter is also pure at the beginning. Or is it not? What then is "nature" ? How does "nature" cause karma or, vice-versa, what is the karma in nature ? Is "nature" just another catchall term.

Its the nature of the soul that governs what the external nature of the world is like, and she responds accordingly to man individually and collectively.

I think nature does not cause karma, she is just the wall we bounce our karmas off; good and bad and even neutral karmas. Once the Confluence is over good and bad is then fixed for us. If the plague is meant to happen in a country in the future, people who are to live there at that time will have to perform the necessary actions before or else they will not arrive there. Fortune makes one make effort and misfortune makes one make effort. 3 aspects always connected to one whether it be past present or future.

Yes, matter is pure but is a reflection of what's in the human, just like today.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:I think nature does not cause karma, she is just the wall we bounce our karmas off; good and bad and even neutral karmas.
You see, I am not arguing against this type of thinking. I am just asking 'how'? OK, we have this faith, even though it is not really documented or explained anywhere in the Murlis ... so now would someone please explain the mechanism and medium through which it works and substantiate in details the complexity by which it works over random times, e.g. I abused a child once, so therefore as a child I am to be abuse ...

I am not sure about your petrol tank of virtues metaphor. If I know 2 + 2 = 4, no matter how many times I use it, it does not wear it out. If I am good and kind, those virtues do not wear out. We are taught that practising them increases the sanskar.

The BKs do have a "spiritual battery determined by a single scale of downwards entropy" theory that opposes most spiritual paths who believe in upwards evolution. I am just trying to get to the simplicity of how, if I kick a dog today, that kick comes back to me tomorrow. And of what limitations there are to karma, e.g. that not all "bad things" that happen to me are 'my karma' but just either random activity beyond our control or new karma for someone else.

There is a lot of blind faith and Bhakti about karma.

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Re: Karma

Post by newlife » 05 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:You see, I am not arguing against this type of thinking. I am just asking "how?". OK, we have this faith, even though it is not really documented or explained anywhere in the Murlis ... so now would someone please explain the mechanism and medium through which it works and substantiate in details the complexity by which it works over random times, e.g. I abused a child once, so therefore as a child I am to be abuse ...

I am not sure about your petrol tank of virtues metaphor. It I know 2 + 2 = 4, no matter how many times I use it, it does not wear it out. If I am good and kind, those virtues do not wear out. We are taught that practising them increases the sanskar.

The BKs do have a "spiritual battery determined by a single scale of downwards entropy" theory that opposes most spiritual paths who believe in upwards evolution. I am just trying to get to the simplicity of how, if I kick a dog today, that kick comes back to me tomorrow. And of what limitations there are to karma, e.g. that not all "bad things" that happen to me are 'my karma' but just either random activity beyond our control or new karma for someone else. There is a lot of blind faith and Bhakti about karma.
Nothing can be proved ex-l, altho there are certain indications that these things are real; like the Akashic Records and science with its throwing a ball at a wall etc. One thing has been proved to myself is that continuous accumulation of certain karmas develops a state of consciousness that is different to the one I am used to or feel comfortable with. Good or bad depending on what the karmas are.

Mine were very bad and so I said sorrowful cutting things to others which was a higher level of nastiness. Nastiness which I didnt think was in me. It is this altered state that I believe is a result of the conscience biting or saying do not continue this but me not listening to my oracle, as Socrates put it. Its impossible to tie it all up to answer your question ... Last week I returned someone's mobile phone that I found on a train. He gave me a bottle of wine but I don't drink. In the afternoon, someone stole my motorcycle clothing with my new helmet and left me his old helmet which smelt of cigarettes and grease, which I had to wear to get home.

I think what winds a lot of people up is that some BKs do have so many ego trips and claim to be pure but the state of consciousness that they have developed will not allow them to see it but, although we wont see it, sorrow waits round the corner fixed in advance < i believe> ...

Socrates in 'The Apology' claimed to be happy and put it down to putting virtue at the top of his list. Stating if there is virtue wealth will follow but put money before virtue and money will not come. And yet he irritated people because < i believe> the state of consciousness he had was not seen because it moves along with us or we along with it. I think it is certainly the state of consciousness that we perform actions in that determines the quality of fruit ... Difficult to explain the whys and wherefors.

Jaggers said we cant tie it all up because there is such a mixture of good and bad. So many lives, so many karmas.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:Last week I returned someone's mobile phone that I found on a train. He gave me a bottle of wine but I don't drink. In the afternoon, someone stole my motorcycle clothing with my new helmet and left me his old helmet which smelt of cigarettes and grease, which I had to wear to get home.
Sucky karma, eh? I can see the movie now ... BK does good karma returning mobile phone and is given bottle of wine ... returns to motorcycle to discover helmet and gear stolen ... returns home all depressed, sits staring at wine bottle ... cut to five years later and he is an alcoholic down and out living under bridges ... all because he did a good turn ... a motorcycle comes around the corner quickly, narrowly misses drunk, crashes into wall, rider dies ... Cut back 5 years and the guy who lost his mobile phone was in a hurry to get off the train because he was guilty ... he had just stolen some other guy's helmet and motorcycle gear and is carry all his swag ... Cut forward again and the drunk realises what has happened ... starts to run ... throws off old cloths vows to give up drinking forever ... goes back to Baba once more ... a mother comes to the center to learn Yoga, she has been depressed since her son died ... Oh, it goes on forever.

So ... we are still no further near answering the question!?! No takers for the limitations and mechanics of karmic return? We decide our lives on faith of its existence and no one know anything about how it works?

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Re: Karma

Post by tom » 05 Sep 2008

It may be somehow related to our conscience. There is no judge in the world stronger and more merciless than our own conscience. Even if we do not accept or realize our guilt or mistake with our consciousness, subconsciously we are aware of it, which reveals itself in our dreams and in our behavior. Interrelated mechanism of karma may function through our united human consciousness.

If there is an afterlife, if the same soul travels around in time, the same conscience and consciousness is traveling around also even the body is not aware of it. Than because of guilty conscience bad things may happen. Because of the goodness of the person and or because of united human consciousness good things may happen.

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Re: Karma

Post by shivshankar » 05 Sep 2008

It is good to figure out by yourself how and why and when, but it is easier to ask Him.

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Re: Karma

Post by mr green » 05 Sep 2008

tom wrote:It may be somehow related to our conscience. There is no judge in the world stronger and more merciless than our own conscience. Even if we do not accept or realize our guilt or mistake with our consciousness, subconsciously we are aware of it, which reveals itself in our dreams and in our behavior ...
We satisfy our own conscience, we feed it ... we are not truly guided by it. We appease it.

Karma can only work on an individual level, we do bad we feel bad, even if it is a twisted pleasure to start with.

Karmic accounts do not exist.

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Re: Karma

Post by tom » 05 Sep 2008

Of course, my hypothesis above excludes the Cycle theory which is an absolute b*******.

If there is eternal life for the soul, there could not be any eternal guilty conscience. As it is believed in the classical spiritualism there should be something like the Akashic Records and, in between, some possibility to settle up the accounts.

Don't ask me how the serial killer of many children can settle up their accounts. We don't know anything.

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